Charles wasn't able to join us for Sunday Nov 23, thus we'll reschedule for Nov 29th.
However, we had a stimulating chat nonetheless and Max More join us as well... around midway down. ~ BJK<hr>
21:45<LazLo>econimc downturns would be a threat, the assumption of a continuous growth economy is a fallacy only believed by generations that have "yet " to experience deep depression cycles, maybe Jonesy, we certainly can hope so.
21:45<John_Ventureville> on cryonet a poster put forth the idea (a bad one) of creating a cryonics cult which brainwashes its minions to care for the suspended. It would be a cross between the moonies and masonry.
21:47<John_Ventureville> "now we shall bring forth the holy life giving liquid nitrogen" "bring it forth!"
21:47<LazLo> I can foresee many threat variables that can occur separately and simulataneously, but fewer of these are about the tech directly and more are a bout society as a whole. Wasn't there a takeover attempt byt he Moonies for one of the cryo corps?
21:47<John_Ventureville> I never heard of that....
21:48<Jonesey> ancestor worship would be helpful i guess for cryo
21:48<John_Ventureville> an interesting thought
21:48<John_Ventureville> if so, China might be a place for cryonics to take hold
21:49<John_Ventureville> I always thought it would have done well in Japan but that is not the case
21:50<LazLo> a subtle atempt to coopt through funding or something? They offered a lot on money but wanted teh bylaws changed to allow some of them to move into postiions of responsibilty. It was rebuffed I believe but was tantamount to a not so subtle veiled takeover.
21:50<LazLo> <<<< trying to log
21:50<John_Ventureville> with the amount of money they have, the moonies could certainly start their own cryonics organization
21:51<John_Ventureville> it would be reinventing the wheel but they could do it
21:51<John_Ventureville> in fact, they could blow Alcor out of the water in terms of facilities and research if they chose to
21:52<BruceK> thanks Laz
21:52<John_Ventureville> "Calling Charles Platt"
21:52<BruceK> thanks john
21:53<Jonesey> as a biz alcor is a joke. amazing they've done "so well"
21:53<LazLo> Bruce I am not doing to well at it, whatis that link you gave me last time for loglady?
21:53<BruceK> ah.. well she seems to be sick
21:53<BruceK> thus the need for manual log
21:53<Crypsis> hey BJK did you get the message I left on the server for you?
21:54<BruceK> ah.. sorry missed that Cryp
21:54<LazLo> but this java applet won't let me copy/block?
21:54<Crypsis> it will come up if you change your nick to BJK
21:54<BruceK> sorry.. java will not..
21:54<Crypsis> it was from someone else I passed it on
21:55<John_Ventureville> tonight on 60 Minutes they will be talking about the Howard Hughes medical endowment fund
21:56<BruceK> jonesey.. can you log us tonight again?
21:56<John_Ventureville> *over ten billion dollars*
21:56<John_Ventureville> I wonder how much of that goes into anti-aging research?
21:56<John_Ventureville> I had no idea there was such a fund
21:57<BruceK> good investing.. there.. seems..
21:57<Crypsis>
http://www.hhmi.org/21:58<Crypsis>
http://www.hhmi.org:...y.html?qt=aging21:59<Jonesey> i'm always logging, bruce
21:59<BruceK> thanks
21:59<LazLo> please this copy/pasting one line at a time is making me age fast :(
22:00* BruceK wonders if we'll need to reschedule Charles
22:00<LazLo> he is only a few minutes late
22:01<BruceK> does anyone have his private email handy... i wasn't able to send him a reminder
22:01<Jonesey> where is he on the imminst site, his photo/bio?
22:01<BruceK>
http://www.imminst.org22:01<Guest1> <Jonesey> and the degree of motivation for future generations to revive frozen ppl is dubious too
22:01<Guest1> People may not develop nanotechnology with medicine in mind-but if not, then they will surely develop it to build better computers.
22:01<Guest1> They may not develop cell repair machines with resuscitation in mind, but they will surely do so to heal themselves.
22:02<Guest1> They may not program repair machines for resuscitation as an act of impersonal charity, but they will have time, wealth, and automated engineering systems, and some of them will have loved ones waiting in biostasis. Resuscitation techniques seem sure to be developed and used.
22:02<BruceK> guest = charles?
22:02<Jonesey> yup bruce but which area of the site? looked and didn't find him
22:02<Guest1> Charles?
22:03<BruceK> ahh is that you Charles Platt = Guest1
22:03<Guest> no, it's Sabina, hi!
22:03<Guest1> No, My last name is Party:)
22:03<BruceK> ah.. great.. nice to see you
22:03<BruceK> heh.. i see..
22:03<Guest1> Boston T.
22:03<BruceK> Jonesey.. scroll down on the homepage look under Chats
22:04<-- Ven has quit (Quit: )
22:04<Guest1> Most scientists would be shocked to think that the work they are doing in their laboratories will inevitably lead to the vast extension of human life spans. They are concentrating on individual investigations focusing on specific research programs. Yet that is where todays research is leading us; to the extension of human life spans well past the century mark, and if we survive that long we shall live for milleniums. Immortality is the goa
22:06<LazLo> Methuselah Mouse and I have been discussing another prize cncept offered for incremental and siginificant developmental aspects of cryogenics
22:06<Guest1> These advanced concepts will be years in arriving, but researchers motivated by medical needs are already studying molecular machines and molecular engineering. Medical needs will push this work forward, encouraging researchers to take further steps toward molecular engineering. Medical, military, and economic pressures will all push us in the same direction.
22:06<LazLo> dealing with actually preparing and storing organs for viability after say 60 days to a few years
22:07<LazLo> organ transplantation is a growing need
22:07<LazLo> storing healthy organs fr later donation woudl be a big breakthrough
22:07<BruceK> Guest1, all good points... and well taken... but who are you, if I may ask?
22:08<Crypsis> Bruce I may have charles's phone number, check your messages
22:08<Guest1> I am, simply a guest.
22:08<BruceK> gotcha.. thanks
22:09<BruceK> didn't mean to pry.
22:11<-- Ven has quit (Quit: )
22:11<BruceK> what got you interested in life extension, Guest1?
22:12<Guest1> When one is invisible he finds such problems as good and evil, honesty and dishonesty easy to see. One is able to think with clarity and act with intelligence or understanding.
22:12<John_Ventureville> Guest1, George Smith, a former frequent cryonet poster would state your views over and over again regarding scientific research being a "juggernaut" which would ultimately get cryonicists and immortalists what they want
22:14<Jonesey> guest1:one is also able to get away with stuff that one couldn't if one were visible
22:14<BruceK> Guest1, humans do seem to be enamored with fairness.. as they should be.. and the internet provides an intersting social tool in that people can try on different caps
22:15<Guest1> What got me interested. I'm a long range planner. Long-Range planning does not deal with future decisions, it deals with the future of present decisions.
22:16<John_Ventureville> I meant "mainstream" scientific research being a juggernaut
22:16<BruceK> small choices have great effect over hundreds of years.. this is true.
22:17<BruceK> Guest1, why do you want to live longer?
22:18<BruceK> if I may be so bold as to ask...
22:18<Guest1> one moment
22:19<Guest1> I love being alive and don’t want any of our lives to end.
22:20<BruceK> hmm.. why do you love life?
22:20<Guest1> The most important thing we all have is our own lives. Where I differ from others is my unwillingness to admit defeat because contemporary medical and social authority tell us that we should. I believe in fighting even if the odds against us may be high. I believe we should fight, because some chance to hold on to our precious lives, even a small chance, is better than no chance and certain death.
22:20<BruceK> why is death bad?
22:21<Guest1> Why love live, well the alternative death holds no promise for me
22:21<Guest1> life
22:21<Guest1> Apparently fear of death is not the main motivating force for people to sign up for cryonic suspension.
22:21<Jonesey> it is for me!
22:22<BruceK> Guest.. why is death such a bad thing?
22:22<BruceK> sorry for the 20 questions.. but i'm still unclear as to your underlying motivations..
22:23<Guest1> I do not believe in life after death
22:23<BruceK> ahh.. there ya go...
22:23<BruceK> thus.. death = oblivion?
22:23<Guest1> ..and it is for me also Jonesey
22:23<Guest1> Yes Bruce
22:23<BruceK> thanks.. just wanted to make this clear
22:24<Guest1> If it were, those signing up would primarily be the old. In fact, most arranging to be suspended are the baby-boomers generation, not the elderly. To me this suggests that faith in technology may be a more important motivating factor than fear of dying. In any case, cryonicists are people with a strong desire to live, not die.
22:25<Guest1> Though their names are not known to me, there are a group of people who are of historical importance for being the last of their kind. Who, for instance, was the last person to die of smallpox? This disease has now been eradicated and the smallpox virus exists only in a safeguarded laboratory. Someone had the distinction of being its last victim. Diphtheria which used to cause 15,000 deaths a year in the United States has almost been eradic
22:25<BruceK> this is probably true...
22:25<Guest1> Because of poverty and lack of medical care there are still people dying from diseases which could easily have been prevented. From the point of view of inevitability, these people are dying needlessly. But, one can optimistically assume that in the not too distant future adequate medical care will be available to everyone. Someone now
alive, for instance, could well be the last person to die of a pneumonia which could have been cured with
22:26<BruceK> do you think cryonics would do better to try and sell death as oblivion rather than life is wonderful?
22:26<Guest1> Now, imagine that you were a person dying of pneumonia before the discovery of penicillin and all the other antibiotics. Further imagine that someone offered to put you to sleep until a cure could be found for your pneumonia. Would you have accepted that offer? I know I would
22:27<BruceK> depends a lot on one's perception of what happens after death...
22:27<BruceK> some feel old and want to die...
22:27<BruceK> it's to painful to live on..
22:27<Guest1> That's a Marketing descision, I have no opion on that..
22:27<BruceK> why?
22:27<Crypsis> want to escape pain, not die
22:27<John_Ventureville> I think old age tends to "sneak up" on people and slowly take away the youthful love of life
22:27<Jonesey> some feel young and want to die, depressed
22:28<Crypsis> some feel young and want dramatic changes in thier life, depressed
22:28<BruceK> Guest1, say you had 1million to spend on marketing Cryonics..
22:28<Jonesey> haha Crypsis
22:28<Guest1> I don't know, I just know that I do not want to be among the first to avoid the distinction of having died just before the dawning of the era of immortality.
22:28<Crypsis> ow
22:28<BruceK> where best would you divide your monies.... 50 / 50 live = wonderful and death = oblivion?
22:29<John_Ventureville> don't advertising experts say going really negative can often leave a stronger & longerlasting impression on the target audience?
22:30<BruceK> hmm... i think it depends on what you're selling..
22:30<BruceK> but humor is probably the best
22:30<Iscariot> more people probably belive life is wonderful, then that death = oblivion.
22:30<John_Ventureville> and SEX!
22:30<BruceK> well yes.. sex is first
22:30<John_Ventureville> maybe we should combine them all...
22:30<Iscariot> you'd be advertising to a bigger market with life is wonderful.
22:30<Guest1> I don't know, That's a question perhaps better answered by Mr. Platt.
22:30<BruceK> make cryonics hip and sexy.. and this would probably be the best bet
22:31<Iscariot> aha.
22:31<John_Ventureville> come back from the hopeful ice and party hardy!
22:31<John_Ventureville> lol
22:31<BruceK> we may have to reschedule Charles for Saturday Nov 29
22:31<Crypsis> did you call him?
22:31<BradleyGirl> :O)
22:32<BruceK> Crypsis... didn't call him... as rescheduling is not a big problem
22:32<Guest1> A new scientific truth is not usually presented in a way to convince its opponents. Unfortunately opponents die off, and a rising generation is familiarized with the truth from the start. Those who view death as always and forever certain will have a much different view of cryonics from those holding the opposite opinion. One man’s foolish desperation will be another’s well-calculated and reasonable gamble. And, as with politics and religio
22:34<BruceK> good point...
22:35<John_Ventureville> brb
22:35<John_Ventureville> dinner time
22:37<BruceK> John..
22:37<Jonesey> there are people who think there's a nonzero prob of reanimation after cryo who've expressed fears to me of the post reanimation scenario
22:38<BruceK> do these people give an alternative to cryonics?
22:38<Jonesey> yes, final death
22:39<Jonesey> oblivion is preferable to some small probabiliyt of torture by sadistic aliens in the distant future
22:39<BruceK> I see... so they should just go ahead and kill themselves?
22:39<Jonesey> my response exactly
22:39<BruceK> i wonder what evolutioanry psychology trait this is..
22:39<Guest1> What was to be Mr. Platt's topic matter tonight?
22:40<BruceK> Cryonics the future and problems..
22:40<gustavo> BJK, does it have to be an evolutionary psychology trait? Couldn' t it be a culturally acquired trait, at least partly?
22:40<BruceK> fear of waking up to a more powerful clan.. probably the same fear of being invaded by another tribe...
22:41<BruceK> gustavo... humans are so much alike on a fundamental level...
22:41<BruceK> but yes.. culture does play a big part
22:41<BruceK> take a china kid.. raise him in the US..
22:41<BruceK> see what happens
22:41<Guest1> I choose to be optimistic rather than pessimistic about the future.
22:41<gustavo> ideology is a powerful force
22:42<gustavo> the fact that humans are alike does not mean that such similarity derives from biology
22:42<gustavo> for instance
22:42<Guest1> The only limit to our realization of tomorrow will be our doubts of today.
22:42<gustavo> all cultures have religions, but that doesn't mean that religion is biologically determined
22:43<Guest1> Considering all that has been accomplished in the past half century and the fact that scientific knowledge appears to be growing exponentially, the next half-century should see human life spans extended to centuries. For all practical purposes, aging will be a thing of the past, and death will be an option rather than an inescapable end of life.
22:43<gustavo> in other words, what I am trying to say, BJ
22:43<gustavo> is that our fight is not against our genes only
22:43<BruceK> gustavo, this is true.. but all humans have the problem of death..
22:43<gustavo> is more against powerful cultural forces
22:43<Jonesey> very optimistic guest1, i don't think so soon. not the next 50 yrs
22:43<Jonesey> but eventually yep
22:44<gustavo> all humans have the problem of death, but human beings conformity, acceptance of death
22:44<gustavo> does that come from biology?
22:44<gustavo> or is it a widely spread ideology?
22:44<BruceK> gustavo, i agree.. one has to win the battle of the memes.. because the genes are pretty much set
22:45<gustavo> ok, we agree then!
22:45<BruceK> yepper... i just like to know the root cause..
22:45<ddhewitt> But perhaps the genes predispose one towards certain memes and behaviours.
22:45<Guest1> When will molecular technology become available? That is unknowable, but time is on ones side if one is frozen. Liquid nitrogen temperature will hold cells in near-perfect stasis for thousands of years.
22:45--> cyborg01 (~y.k.y@147.4.225.217) has joined #immortal
22:45<gustavo> ok, there BJ and DDHewitt I have an epistemological disagreement with you
22:46<BruceK> it helps me see it in a wider perspective.... lot of times people will become bogged down in some great humaness ideology which clouds the fact that we're just animals
22:46<Guest1> Half a century ago, most scientists deemed space travel unfeasible, and some contended that the sound barrier would never be broken. Many doctors, forty years ago, considered heart transplants scientifically impossible. Who, even thirty years ago could have imagined today’s laptop computers, omnipresent cellular phone systems, or the internet?
22:46<Guest1> In 1986, many biologists deemed it scientifically impossible to clone an adult mammal.
22:46<gustavo> BJ, this philosophical disagreemen is not a problem, since we agree on our GOALS (becoming immortals)
22:47<gustavo> but I don't think we are ONLY animals
22:47<BruceK> death sucks.. pretty easy to agree upon
22:47<Crypsis> If so long as it does not in some way violate the laws of physics, all technologys will eventualy emerge
22:47<BruceK> gustavo.. how are we more than animal?
22:47<gustavo> we are animals, but also, culture is our second nature
22:47<gustavo> it's hard to give a short answer
22:48<BruceK> what's so great about culture?
22:48<ddhewitt> We are different than other animals in that we can choose to disobey the program of our genes.
22:48<gustavo> i don't think that a good description, DDHewitt
22:48<goomba> but even having the choice is programmed
22:49<gustavo> it is not
22:49<ddhewitt> It opens the door for free will.
22:49<Crypsis> free will.....
22:49<gustavo> free will is a cultural deveolpment
22:49<ddhewitt> Free will is not dependent on culture IMHO.
22:49<gustavo> you take most civilizations before the romans, there no notion of free will
22:49<Jonesey> guest1:I sure hope you're right on the time frame
22:49<gustavo> it is only when legal institutions are developed
22:49<gustavo> and people are made responsible for their acts
22:49<gustavo> that free will emerges
22:50<Rotaerk> I dont think any creature could disobey its own genes.
22:50<Rotaerk> We just have DIFFERENT programs.
22:50<Guest1> Me too;)
22:50<gustavo> when you are playing guitar
22:50<gustavo> you are neither disobeying nor obeying your genes
22:50<Crypsis> how would you prove something disobeyed its own genes?
22:50<gustavo> you are moving on a different level
22:50<gustavo> the level of cultural meanings
22:50<Jonesey> death's very bearable once it's over with, it's the knowledge that one is about to die that sucks
22:51<BruceK> interesting gustavo... but many would say you're just trying to impress a mate
22:51<gustavo> yes, but what matters is the HOW
22:51<BruceK> playing right to your genes
22:51<gustavo> the goal, the energy, the motivation may come from my genes, my hormones
22:51<gustavo> but the LANGUAGE, the medium you are moving in
22:51<gustavo> it's radically different from nature
22:52<BruceK> eh.. birds do it
22:52<gustavo> and in using symbols, artifacts, etc. you are becoming a differnt kind of creature
22:52<gustavo> not in the same way
22:52<gustavo> birds, for instance
22:52<gustavo> have a fixed ttemplate of possible songs
22:52<Rotaerk> so do humans.
22:52<gustavo> no
22:52<gustavo> humans are developing new musical languages all the time
22:52<Jonesey> that's why it amuses me that many consider the death penalty less "cruel and unusual" than torture or dismemberment. I don't think so.
22:53<Guest1> Why to we need Mr. Platt to discuss the future of Cryonics, and it's problems?
22:53<BruceK> gustavo.. why is this important again?
22:53<gustavo> its important because
22:53<BruceK> why should we want to feel more than animal?
22:53<gustavo> I think there is a tendency to do some oversimplistic reductionism
22:54<gustavo> of mind to digital computers
22:54<BruceK> Guest1 because he has more experience than all of us put together
22:54<gustavo> of meanings to computer programs
22:54<BruceK> i tend to agree...
22:54<gustavo> it is important not to fall prey of our own illusions
22:54<BruceK> but...
22:54<Guest1> experience in what specifically
22:54<Guest1> ?
22:55<BruceK> i doubt there is meaning in meaning
22:55<BruceK> life just is.
22:55<Crypsis> oh man
22:55<gustavo> I agree with that!
22:55<BruceK> heh
22:55<BruceK> how's that for poetry
22:55<gustavo> and meaning is meaning only insofar as we don't die
22:55<BruceK> i bet i could get layed with that line
22:55<Crypsis> by what is the question
22:55<BruceK> good point
22:56<BruceK> are we more than animal?
22:56<BruceK> and does it even matter?
22:56<Guest1> What about the future problems of Cryonics, that's something that Mr. Platt doesn't have more experience with.
22:56<Crypsis> perhaps the idea of "just animal" is too small?
22:56<ddhewitt> We imbue life with meaning.
22:56<Jonesey> hm?
22:56<Jonesey> we're debating if we're mammals now?
22:56<-- Iscariot has quit (Ping timeout)
22:56<Crypsis> no
22:56<BruceK> Guest1, this is true.. but he's delt with many past problems
22:56<gustavo> this is something that I think a lot when I read the posts at imminst... I agree with the goals, but I think there sometimes is a lot of wishful thinking
22:57<Guest1> What kind of problems?
22:57<ddhewitt> I agree with you there gustavo.
22:57<gustavo> in that people believe that "ok, we already understand what we are, we are these machines, we almost have this whole problem solved"
22:57<Rotaerk> People tend to have a humanistic reflex through which they express their desire to be special.
22:57<BruceK> gustavo.. i agree.. there's a lot of exuberient optimism
22:58<Crypsis> meaning, no meaning, special not special, its all a wash
22:58<BruceK> immortality attracts such individuals..
22:58<gustavo> i don't care about "special" I'm not special (i'm a creeeep....)
22:58--> Guest2 (~Guest@sdn-ap-025txhousP0278.dialsprint.net) has joined #immortal
22:58* BruceK would tend to agree
22:59<Guest1> Bruce, aren't you just as capable of discussing the future problems of Cryonics?
22:59<BruceK> as it takes a creep to understand a creep
22:59<gustavo> ha ha
22:59<Crypsis> We are the All Singing, All dancing ...
22:59<BruceK>
22:59<BruceK> Guest1, yes.. but it helps to have someone who has been there..
23:00<BruceK> with past problems.. to help with ideas for the future
23:00<Guest1> Aren't the past problems known, what kind of problems, like legal, ethical, technical
23:00<Jonesey> all this creep talk...cripes
23:01<BruceK> creep talk can be crippling to crips converstions
23:01<Crypsis> polictical social economic environmental
23:01<BruceK> course would help if i could spell
23:01<Jonesey> heheh
23:02<Jonesey> well the past is past and will never return. the future we know not, only the present is our own
23:02<Jonesey> or so i hear
23:02<Guest2> Excuse me for stepping in late, but is Charles still here?
23:02<BruceK> Guest1, there's of course the big question of when or if cryonics is proven to be somewhat successful... can Alcor handle the increase in membership
23:02<Crypsis> Guest2: no show, feel free to hang about
23:03<BruceK> Guest2.. we'll reschedule Charles for Sat Nov 29
23:03<Guest2> Ah, sorry to hear that.
MAX MORE Join ImmInst Chat23:03<Guest2> Guest2 = Max More, BTW
23:03<Crypsis> oy max
23:03<Guest2> I expect Alcor would be glad to have the opportunity to be tested!
23:03<BruceK> Ah.. cool welcome Max..
23:03<Guest2> Thank you Bruce
23:04<BruceK> you can change your nick by typing '/me Max' if you'd like
23:04<Jonesey> hi max, fun talk you gave at the alcor conf last nov
23:04<gustavo> see you guys...
23:04<Guest2> Did anyone tackle the question that Charles was to answer?
23:04* Guest2 Max
23:04<BruceK> take care Gustavo..
23:04<Jonesey> relevant to this chat, we've been talking about adapting to reanimation
23:04<Crypsis> NICK max
23:04<Jonesey> "/nick Max"
23:04<BruceK> yikes.. sorry it's /nick
23:04<Crypsis> /NICK max
23:04--- Guest2 is now known as Max
23:04<Max> Bingo
23:04<Crypsis> heh
23:04<Max> I'm now in my second life cycle here
23:05<Jonesey> heh identity crisis
23:05<-- gustavo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
23:05<BruceK> a refresh is always healthy
23:05<Max> Why was it thought that growth would be a particular problem for Alcor?
23:05<Crypsis> Max: we have been picking around the edges of the issue
23:05<Max> Keeping the main carcass of the issue fresh for Charles?
23:05<BruceK> Max.. this is one problem CP said he'd like to discuss with the chat.. (i think)
23:06<John_Ventureville> when the Alcor standby training was at the Creekside, Charles Platt gave a thorough discussion on the future challenges of cryonics
23:06<Max> BruceK, understood
23:06<Max> That must be Mr Grigg
23:06<BruceK> this would be a good problem of course
23:07<BruceK> but aren't all problems good in some way
23:07<John_Ventureville> it is I!
23:07<Max> BruceK, indeed. It's surprising but true that major growth can be an organizational killer.
23:07<BruceK> all change is to be embrased as opportunity
23:07<Jonesey> humans are fractious yup
23:07<Max> Managers tend to become anchored to their former ways of doing things, but those no longer work well.
23:07<Jonesey> biggest threat to org stability.
23:07<Crypsis> BruceK: inclusing death?
23:08<BruceK> ehh, exclude that pesky one
23:08<Jonesey> well that's a good point actually
23:08<Max> However, starting from Alcor's size, major growth could mean more resources for more professional management
23:08<Jonesey> too much stability is bad, kills adaptablity
23:08<Jonesey> puzzler
23:09<Max> Jonesey: an example is entrepreneurial organizations that grow and find their old, loose ways of working aren't appropriate
23:09<BruceK> I predict Alcor will see competiton soon..
23:09<BruceK> not only from CI but from others
23:09<Jonesey> heh e.g. apple
23:09<John_Ventureville> and if Alcor began to grow by leaps and bounds I would imagine serious competition would occur
23:09<Max> Competition has had a way of appearing then shooting itself in the foot
23:09<Max> But if cryonics REALLY grows, you can bet well-run health organizations will jump in
23:09<Jonesey> big funeral home chains are in a decent position to compete but this is a big paradigm shift for them psychologically.
23:10<John_Ventureville> I once thought of that.
23:10<Max> Yes, there are *some* well-run health organizations
23:10<Max> I don't think funeral homes are the biggest threat
23:11<Max> Unless people see biostasis as just a form of disposal
23:11<BruceK> any word on TimeShip.org lately?
23:11<Max> Otherwise, it's just not in the same market space
23:11<Jonesey> that's one path to mass acceptance, just another funeral option.
23:11<Max> An expensive funeral
23:11<Max> and a socially unpopular one
23:11<Crypsis> some people may see biostasis as just a form of procrastination
23:12<John_Ventureville> When a fortune 500 corporation decides to throw their hat into the cryonics arena times will have changed!
23:12<Jonesey> heheh Crypsis
23:12<Max> Some procrastination is GOOD!
23:12<John_Ventureville> true
23:12<John_Ventureville> Anders explained that one to me
23:12<John_Ventureville> in terms of generation ships
23:12<BruceK> Max.. have you had a chance to see your link on the homepage of ImmInst?
23:13<Max> Yes, Bruce, saw that today
23:13<-- Guest has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
23:13<Max> It made me realize that I need to update my bio!
23:13<BruceK> let me know if you'd like to make any changes
23:13<BruceK> heh
23:13<Max> Will do, thanks
23:13<Jonesey> 3:18 here in spain, gonna crash. bruce i'll leave logging on and will send it to u when i wake up in a few hrs :(
23:13<BruceK> see you need another refresh
23:14<Max> Bye Jonesey
23:14<BruceK> thanks Jone.. can you email the log?
23:14<Jonesey> l8r max
23:14<Jonesey> yep see above
23:15<John_Ventureville> Max, how are things going with the book you are working on?
23:15<John_Ventureville> Do you have a release date yet?
23:15<Max> The book has undergone a major transformation
23:15<John_Ventureville> wow
23:15<Max> I don't want to say much about it however until I'm ready....
23:15<John_Ventureville> in what way?
23:15<John_Ventureville> ok
23:15<Max> It's much more practically focused,
23:15<Crypsis> oh come on
23:16<John_Ventureville> could you give us a broad idea of what the book is about?
23:16<Max> I think I finally completed the transition from abstract philosopher to future-oriented problem-solver
23:16<John_Ventureville> I see
23:16<John_Ventureville> excellent
23:16<Max> I *could*... :-)
23:16<Max> Okay, very briefly
23:16<John_Ventureville> : )
23:17<BruceK> in the same vein... ImmInst is now open to essay submissions for it's planned book to be released early in 2004
23:17<BruceK> check
http://www.imminst.org/book for more
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23:17<Max> The aim is to reveal and integrate a wide range of cognitive tools for individuals and organizations to think more effectively about
23:17<Max> new issues driven by advanced and emerging technologies.
23:17<Max> Great, Bruce
23:18<Max> Do you have distribution plans in place?
23:18<BruceK> Natash has graciously submitted her abstract
23:18<BruceK> we do actually..
23:18<BruceK> Gustavo has rolled out the red carpet for us..
23:18<Max> If you haven't already covered the population issue, I could brush that one up...
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23:18<BruceK> thanks for your help there.. i'll keep in mind
23:19<Max> I don't Gustavo, but that sounds like a good thing
23:19<BruceK> he is part owner of the pub. co.
23:19<Max> The existing version should be on my website
23:19<Max> Ah ha
23:19<Utnapishtim> hi
23:19<BruceK> and has really cut us a nice plan
23:20<BruceK> 'existing versin' = ?
23:20<John_Ventureville> hello Utnap!
23:20<Max>
http://www.maxmore.c...rpopulation.htm23:20<BruceK> ahh. cool so you'd like to submit this essay?
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23:20<Max> Yes, but I'll be happy to update and improve the style
23:20<BruceK> i'll let our editing team know.. thanks!
23:20<Max> Great, thank YOU
23:21<John_Ventureville> Bruce, would you consider a Venturist offering for your book?
23:21<BruceK> we have a team of 7 who'd love to chomp into some material
23:21<John_Ventureville> Mike Perry would probably be the best man for the job.
23:21<BruceK> we would be happy to have an offering from those nuts
23:21<John_Ventureville> ; )
23:22<BruceK> Mike will join us for a chat in Dec
23:22<John_Ventureville> I saw that
23:22<John_Ventureville> great news
23:22<BruceK> yes.. his first chat
23:22<Max> I used to write an Immortalist Philosophy column for Alcor's magazine. I'll check out your book plan and see if new versions of any of those might be possiblilties
23:22<Guest1> Bruce, on the issue of cryonics, what do you think is the most important problem to work on next?
23:22<BruceK> great max
23:22<BruceK> Guest1, making immortality a safe concept to talk about
23:22<Guest1> ???
23:22<BruceK> we need to come out of the closet
23:23<John_Ventureville> speaking of that..
23:23<Crypsis> who hasnt?
23:23<John_Ventureville> issue two of Physical Immortality is out
23:23<BruceK> death = oblivion should not be taboo like cancer and sex used to be
23:23<Guest1> Isn't cryonics well known?
23:23<John_Ventureville> death and money are perhaps the last two great taboos
23:24<BruceK> we should cure death like we cured polio
23:24<Crypsis> BruceK: seriously, who is hesitant to talk about it?
23:24<BruceK> Crypsis.. me
23:24<Crypsis> wow
23:24<Guest1> I agree, what can this group do to help?
23:24* Crypsis is suprised
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23:24<BruceK> to my family and anyone else except you guys
23:25<Crypsis> hmm well Im not and never have been so thats why Im suprised
23:25<John_Ventureville> you have to be careful discussing physical immortality so that you are not branded a "weird"
23:25<BruceK> i'm not a brave person in this respect... i feel social norms pulling me away from talking about important issues like physical immortality..
23:25<BruceK> i think people will think im selfish
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23:26<Guest1> Selfish, well can't we talk about those, "memes"
23:26<Crypsis> ah ok, I got comfortable being considered a "weird" long ago
23:26<John_Ventureville> I've read a strength of Max is that he can talk about the most "out there" things and get someone to go along with the idea
23:26<BruceK> Leon Kass says "Immortals can not be noble"
23:26<BruceK> I think many people tend to agree with Kass here....
23:26<Max> Bye, everyone. Have to go for now, but will be back for future chats.
23:26<Crypsis> ok
23:26<John_Ventureville> goodnight
23:26<Guest1> Than would you not agree that disecting those memes is a project that we should work on?
23:26<BruceK> take care Max
23:26<John_Ventureville> so long pardner!
23:27<Max> Stay cool
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23:27<BruceK> Guest1, very much so...
23:27<John_Ventureville> (Arizonan to a Texan)
23:27<Guest1> Good night John
23:27<utnapishtee> Finally
23:27<Crypsis> why is loving life selfish? I dont understand
23:27<Guest1> That is not a very difficult thing to do Bruce
23:28<utnapishtee> How important are the abstract ethical speculations really in the absence of a belief by the vast majority of the public that what we propose is even feasible?
23:28<BruceK> Cryp, many people think that you're being selfish by wanting to live longer.. selfish = overpopulation.. selfish = hoarding resources... selfish = don't care about poor people who can't afford life extension.. etc.
23:29<Crypsis> ah
23:29<John_Ventureville> and going against the natural rhythms of life and death
23:29<BruceK> Naturalistic Falicy
23:29<utnapishtee> BruceK: People think this in the abstract. I think that if such tech actualyl existed those concerns might well vanish
23:29<John_Ventureville> my atheist younger brother feels that way
23:29<utnapishtee> And if they don't... they can always do the noble thing and shuffle off this mortal coil
23:29<Guest1> Bruce, I can't seem to copy and paste, could you save those topics
23:29<BruceK> big big problem.. just remember we're living an 'artificial' world already.. we drive metal cars and have plastic hearts..
23:30<John_Ventureville> he has dated too many enviro-radical girls!
23:30<John_Ventureville> lol
23:30<Crypsis> ok well hmm.. If Iwanted to be a real jerk Id say: live longer.. selfish? = overpopulation.. selfish? = hoarding resources... selfish? = don't care about poor people who can't afford life extension? fine KILL YOURSELF
23:30<BruceK> Guest1, I will post the log under Charles's topic soon...
23:30<Guest1> thank you
23:30<utnapishtee> BruceK: did Charles show up for this chat?
23:30<John_Ventureville> nope
23:31<BruceK> Cryp, we need everyone helping.. if not we all will likely die
23:31<Guest1> Perhaps we could work on those memes together
23:31<Crypsis> yes I know thanks fo the reminder
23:31<BruceK> Utna, will have the chat on Sat Nov 29
23:31<BruceK> Cryp, how we help those who don't want to be helped.... will be important to our overall success.. we must reach out to all
23:32<BruceK> or none at all
23:32<utnapishtee> Honestly: I think that is the technology actually existed then the only people with ethical reservations would be those who couldn't afford it and a few greenpeace types
23:32<Crypsis> the spill over effect of life etending technologys is already reaching 3d worlders in the form of disease prevention and medical care, we can expect this to accellerate
23:32<utnapishtee> BruceK: IYou think we must convince everyone of our philosophical position in regards to extended lifespan?
23:33<Guest1> I don't know about the "meme" we must
23:33<BruceK> i think is should be clear enough so that everyone can understand it easily.. not all will agree, of course.. but we should still show that we're trying..
23:34<Crypsis> how we help those who don't want to be helped is already happening in the way that incremental advances in healthcare and prevention is radiating outwards to everyone
23:34<BruceK> just the show is almost as important as the actuall success of it
23:34<Guest1> And I don't know about the meme "we must convince everyone of our philosophical position"
23:34<utnapishtee> The most compelling aspect of this for joe average is that he gets his looks and vitality back. Do we really need to drop a whole world view on him?
23:35<Crypsis> utnapishtee: exactly, it has to play for joe and jill lunchbox,
23:35<Guest1> Isn't that meme the same sort of religious meme that people die and kill for??
23:35<Guest1> Shouldn't we persuade
23:36<Guest1> Not everyone is going to embrace our favorite future
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23:36<utnapishtee> A little dissapointing that Charles Platt didn't show
23:36<Crypsis> the fear of death and aging, even to the ego, will respond to products available in the market place for quick and easy solutions
23:36<BruceK> partly my fault for not sending a reminder..
23:37<utnapishtee> I find it amazing that a man who has worked so long and hard in the cryonics field has no interest in being suspended himself. |I really find that mindboggling
23:37<Crypsis> utnapishtee: AFAYK
23:37<utnapishtee> Crypsis: Yes
23:37<Crypsis> he may be privately interested
23:37<Guest1> I'm not advocating force. I have people dying in my family. I've told them about cryonics, tried to explain the possible repair technology
23:37<utnapishtee> Crypsis: This is the impression I got from his posts to cryonet
23:38<Crypsis> ok
23:38<Crypsis> Guest1: my wife accepted the idea in about 10 min of talking to her
23:38<Guest> hello
23:38<Crypsis> Guest1: many of my freinds like the idea but just cant commit the funds
23:39<utnapishtee> Guest: How old are your friends?
23:39<Crypsis> 30's to 50's
23:39<Guest1> hello
23:39<Crypsis> hey
23:39<Crypsis> your here
23:39<utnapishtee> If I was in my fifties I'd definitely want to have a policy in place
23:40<Guest1> yeah, my screen went blank
23:40<Crypsis> consider a irc program that is notn java based next time
23:40<utnapishtee> Just out of interest. How bullish are the people here on the prospects of current cryonics patients ever being revived?
23:41<Guest1> there is no conversation above my hello
23:41<Guest1> Bullish
23:41<Crypsis> utnapishtee: barring sociopolitical bariers %100 certain
23:41<utnapishtee> crypsis: WOW!
23:42<Crypsis> Guest1 yes you crashed and had to re-log in
23:42<utnapishtee> what gives you that degree of confidence
23:42<Crypsis> anything technology that does not violate the laws of physics will eventualy emerge
23:42<utnapishtee> Isn't it possible that present suspension techniques simply are too inefficient at preserving the neccessary info
23:42<John_Ventureville> I wish I knew more about the true nature of longterm memory & neuron damage during the vitrification process before saying I was that certain.
23:43<utnapishtee> Is the United States really the best place for cryonics facilities
23:43<Guest1> No
23:43<John_Ventureville> I would say there is a 50% of cryonics working.
23:43<Guest1> Not today anyway
23:43<Crypsis> it is for me because I live here
23:43<utnapishtee> crypsisL I don't understand that rationale
23:44<John_Ventureville> cryonics longterm storage should be done by giant zeppelins which stay over international waters.
23:44<John_Ventureville> ; )
23:44<Guest1> John gets it
23:44<utnapishtee> if you have 100% confidence in his effectiveness then I would assume cryonics would absolutely take precedence as far as your retirement plans are concerned up to and inculding relocating to another location