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Dairy products


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#1 staz

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Posted 24 October 2003 - 12:08 AM


I hear so many different things, some claim the positive aspects of dairy products greatly outnumber the negative, while some claim the opposite.
So from an aspect based on research and knowledge, are dairy products good or bad for the health in general?

#2 Lazarus Long

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Posted 24 October 2003 - 12:46 AM

Lactose tolerance is a genetic mutation of relatively recent occurrence. This is the determining factor and the reason why some people are benefited and others hurt. It really has more to do with your genetic ancestry.

Latin American folks never evolved in the presence of cattle or milk bearing animals, the same with many Asians. Africans and Europeans developed dairy independently only about ten to fifteen thousand years ago so they have had more time to adapt to this and have developed a genetic adaptation that make them more able to tolerate and utilize dairy.

This is a complex issue of ethnic blending because folks from the Central Asian regions and "steppes" are hybridized with Europeans, Europeans with Africans and Latin American with Europeans and by this manner many people today from all those regions so for a number of centuries there has been an ongoing process of genetic acquisition through inter-mating. Even so Polynesians often suffer from the same problems as Native Americans because they never experienced dairy until the arrival of Europeans in the last five or six centuries. Though there was some cattle brought to parts of the Philippines, Java, and Indonesia by earlier migrations of Islamic and Hindu traders.

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#3 staz

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Posted 24 October 2003 - 03:24 PM

So, whether it's good or not is pretty obvious then? As lactose intolerance will have people feel ill when they consume (too much) dairy?

With good I mean, the benefits outnumbering the disadvantages. I.e. somebody doing bodybuilding might find drinking alot of milk being a good source of protein, while if that person was lactose intolerant, it simply wouldn't be worth drinking the milk.

#4 Lazarus Long

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Posted 24 October 2003 - 03:28 PM

Also a person depending on their age, general blood sugar, physical output, and cholesterol level might want to moderate their ingestion level.

#5 David

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Posted 02 November 2003 - 07:34 AM

Just a little aside on the topic of milk, there was a story on our government TV station (Australian Broadcasting Athority, ABC television) a little while ago about how there has been some kind of cover up by the New Zealand milk board (or something similar) of some research they did.

Apparently the research has shown that the milk we get is generally from cows that have been genetically engineered to produce more milk. According to this report, (and I'm going on memory here), the milk these cows produce has something in it, (an enzyme or something) that penetrates the wall of the gut and goes where it shouldn't, causing harm.

You can however buy milk from cows that are kept on 'organic' farms that have not been engineered in any way, they're just like the cows we looked at out of our caves. You just need to find it. Try the organic food shops, they should have some, if not, ask them to get some! :)

#6 nefastor

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Posted 02 November 2003 - 11:56 AM

I've never looked much into the why's and how's milk is good, because so far it's good for me. I drink lots of milk, I eat lots of chocolate too, and suiss cheese.

I'm 27, not exactly thick-boned and I pratice martial arts since I was a kid. I never got a broken bone, and trust I've done what it takes, on several occasions. So I guess the calcium from milk must have strengthened my bones. That's the main reason I drink milk.

Actually I must be more than lactose tolerant, maybe I'm even addicted to the stuff...

Anyway, I'll say this about the milk you find at the supermarket : it's most definitely not from a normal cow. I has little or no savor, and is much like white water.

I've had the chance to have farmer friends in the french countryside, and we did get milk from the cows every morning before breakfast. Man ! You don't know what's milk until you've drunk from the source.

I don't know if it's UHT sterilisation or dilution with water to increase the ammount of milk, or genetic tampering or maybe all three things at once... but milk you buy at the shop ain't milk. It's perhaps a milk derivate, but it ain't milk.

So-called "organic" milk is better than average, I've tested plenty. At least it somewhat tastes like milk, so I guess they mix it with less water... or don't remove as much nutrients from it as they do from cheaper milk.

About "organic" food, don't you find it bizarre it's so expensive ? Given that the farmer didn't pay for modern chemicals to grow his crops, they should be LESS expensive. It's so expensive most people never enter "organic" shops here in France.

Jean

#7 David

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 02:39 AM

You are absolutely right, it aint milk. It's really a pasturised homogenised dirivative, much like reconstituted orange juices and the like. That is, it has most of the cream removed and is then processed at high temperatures. In other words, it has the guts boiled out of it. When I was a kid living in the country we used to have guy in a ute come around every morning with milk straight out of the cow in a stainless steel drum, from which he filled a container that we used to leave hanging under a tree with some money in it. Real milk straight fron the cow has 8 to 15% cream floating on the top. And by golly, its bloody glorious to eat and drink! Pours the kilos on around the waistline though...

The law of supply and demand dictates that a scarce resourse like "organic food" will be more expensive than the mass produced stuff. Especially ir there is high demand. Don't fool youself that a product's cost has all that much to do with how much it costs to produce!

David

#8 AgentNyder

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 03:11 AM

You can get calcium and protein from better sources. Milk is high in carbohydrates - so low carb alternatives like nuts and green leafy vegetables represent a better alternative.

Info here: http://atkins.com/Ar.../15-147160.html

You'll notice there is no mammal out there that consumes milk past the nurturing stage of the mother - except for us humans.

I never drink milk. Soy milk represents the better alternative - and you get used to and even enjoy the taste after a while. I have it in my tea and coffee. :)

#9 nefastor

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 05:55 AM

I like soy milk, but I would never give up cow milk for it. Besides, I don't like soy yogurt at all. As for tofu, I can't really say : it's not easy to come by in France. I'll try it when I have the chance, though.

As for vegetables... well I hardly do a meal without some salad. Actually, ever since I got nutrition lessons in school I've done my best to have a balanced and varied diet. It just makes sense anyway.

David, what I was saying is : you hardly see any people buying "organic" food : that's why I said the high prices were strange, because there doesn't seem to be much demand AND it's probably cheaper to grow.

The lack of demand is probably due to the high cost... so if the laws of Demand and Offer do kick in someday, we'll see the prices fall. I sure hope so.

Modern agriculture produces more food than people eat, we've seen that every year for almost two decades now. I don't understand why they still want to produce more (using GM plants and animals, for instance). Unless they want to feed the poor and the third world for free !

That would be a commendable attitude, but I think increasing production is just an expression of greed. Only there IS such a thing of having too much food, and people won't buy more than they need.

Why don't farmers don't understand that ? Here in France we use to say farmers have more common sense than townspeople. Is it still true ? What does that say about us townspeople ?

Jean

#10 srmann

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 09:34 PM

It takes more labor to grow organic and is done on a small scale. This is why the prices are higher.

#11 David

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 03:46 AM

Agent Nyder, the reason we are the only animal that consumes milk past the nurturing stage is because we are the only one capable of procuring it on a grand scale. If you make the stuff availabe to other species they will gourge themselves on it. Try pouring it into a container anywhere near a pig, dog or a cat.

Soy mild is fine, but it suppresses the production of the stuff produced by your thyroid gland. If you have a healthy thyroid, that's not too much to worry about, but if you are hypothyroid, it could be bad for you. Supresses the immune system and your metabolism.

And trust me, thousands of health food shops popping up all over the place suggest there is a demand for these high priced products. Here in Australia, the farmers lobby is trying desperately to keep genetically modified (GM) crops outlawed, in an effort to make Australia the source for non GM foods.

I'm 100% with them, when it comes to food, I'm a self confessed Luddite. And yes, I do know just about everything we eat has been modified throug human selection along the way. But, enough is enough! I think the scientists need to stay out of my breakfast bowl! [angry]

#12 JonesGuy

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 08:01 AM

Soylent Green Breakfast Cereal is made of Scientists!

SCIENTISTS!!!

- is that what you mean?
[huh]

Kidding. My philosophy is, if the rich want to, eat organic. But at least make the GM foods available for those who would starve with out them.

Personally, I cater my diet to be an environmentally friendly as possible. I believe that consuming my protein through milk is much less damaging than eating the meat.

Like I said before, milk is good for you if consumed strategically. The protein is slow digesting, but the sugars are a little confusing for the body.

#13 David

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 01:23 AM

There is enough food to go round without GM. It's problems with renumeration for the producers and distribution of the product that needs the work, not the genetic makup of the crops.

One of the problems is that we here in the west are an individualistic society, out for what we can get, instead of being a collectivist society, out for what we can contribute. Economic rationalism has (hopefully temoporarily) defeated our interests in the wellbeing of our fellow man.

Before you go screaming Dave you commie bastard, Japan is a collectivist society, but they look after each other. Lets do that on a global scale, yes?

Wouldn't it be nice if instead of American farmers beng subsidised against the intrusion of cheap food imports, (like, from Australians) the American Govt. instead used the same amount of money they waste on protectionism to buy the crops of their farmers and provide it to those who need it?

Win-win if you ask me!

#14 shpongled

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 07:31 AM

You can get calcium and protein from better sources.  Milk is high in carbohydrates - so low carb alternatives like nuts and green leafy vegetables represent a better alternative.

Info here: http://atkins.com/Ar.../15-147160.html

You'll notice there is no mammal out there that consumes milk past the nurturing stage of the mother - except for us humans.

I never drink milk.  Soy milk represents the better alternative - and you get used to and even enjoy the taste after a while.  I have it in my tea and coffee. :)


Wait... carbohydrates = bad? You need to substantiate that statement. Also, lactose is not high glycemic. Even if it were, 12 g is not many carbs at all. Lactose intolerance can be easily resolved with lactose free milk.

I do not think soy milk is better than milk. They both have positives and negatives but are two different foods that do two different things. Milk contains all sorts of bioactive constituents that are good for the immune system, prevent hypertension, and aid in cancer prevention, among many others. Also milk protein is among the best in quality, and is slow digesting. The emphasis on calcium is very misguided, that is not the only reason milk is good for you - far from it. However, calcium content is not the only thing that matters, but bioavailability as well, and the calcium from milk is very bioavailable.

BTW, take a look at the references on the articles at the Atkin's site - almost none of the journals are peer reviewed, about half of them are obsolete, and the studies are often misquoted.

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#15 shpongled

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 07:36 AM

About "organic" food, don't you find it bizarre it's so expensive ? Given that the farmer didn't pay for modern chemicals to grow his crops, they should be LESS expensive.


The reason they use chemicals is because it makes it less expensive on balance, for various reasons




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