410 replies to this topic

[Blue]

Very interesting thread. Unfortunate that there seem to be few studies comparing a ketogenic diet and calorie restriction: But here is one:

"Calorie restriction (CR) is an experimental intervention in laboratory animals that attenuates age-associated increases in morbidity, mortality, and functional impairment. It is characterized by mild ketosis, hypoinsulinemia and hypoglycemia. In this study, we examined whether metabolic simulation of CR by a diet of isocaloric ketogenic or hypoinsulinemic diets ameliorated the learning and memory deficit in a strain of senescence-accelerated prone mice (SAMP8), a mouse model of age-dependent impairments in learning and memory. Male SAMP8 mice were fed high carbohydrate (CHO), high fat (FAT), or high protein (PRO) diets after weaning, and calorie intake was adjusted to 95% (sub ad libitum, sAL) or 70% (CR) of the mean calorie intake of control mice. At 28 weeks of age, we found CR ameliorated the performance defects of SAMP8 mice in a passive avoidance task. Neither FAT nor PRO diets affected performance of the task when fed sAL level, although a diet of these compositions partially mimicked the serum parameters of CR mice. These results suggest restriction of calorie intake is important for the prevention of learning and memory deficits, and that the simulation of serum changes induced by CR is not sufficient to prevent the cognitive defects of SAMP8 mice."
http://www.sciencedi...592a2056b2519e7

So at least for this outcome a ketogenic diet is not a substitute for CR.

[Blue]

Another comparison:

"Rett syndrome (RTT) is a rare X-linked autistic-spectrum neurological disorder associated with impaired energy metabolism, seizure susceptibility, progressive social behavioral regression, and motor impairment primarily in young girls. The objective of this study was to examine the influence of restricted diets, including a ketogenic diet (KD) and a standard rodent chow diet (SD), on behavior in male Mecp2^308/y mice, a model of RTT. The KD is a high-fat, low-carbohydrate diet that has anticonvulsant efficacy in children with intractable epilepsy and may be therapeutic in children with RTT. Following an 11-day pretrial period, adult wild-type and mutant Rett mice were separated into groups that were fed either an SD in unrestricted or restricted amounts or a ketogenic diet (KetoCal) in restricted amounts for a total of 30 days. The restricted diets were administered to reduce mouse body weight by 20–23% compared to the body weight of each mouse before the initiation of the diet. All mice were subjected to a battery of behavioral tests to determine the influence of the diet on the RTT phenotype. We found that performance in tests of motor behavior and anxiety was significantly worse in male RTT mice compared to wild-type mice and that restriction of either the KD or the SD improved motor behavior and reduced anxiety. We conclude that although both restricted diets increased the tendency of Rett mice to explore a novel environment, the beneficial effects of the KD were due more to calorie restriction than to the composition of the diet. Our findings suggest that calorically restricted diets could be effective in reducing the anxiety and in improving motor behavior in girls with RTT."
[url="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WDT-4VPM5FH-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=960722414&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=75544431e92ecf373792ee73a78adbb3""]http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=A...3a78adbb3"[/url]

[Blue]

Yet another comparison:

"Our objective was to compare the effects of a low-carbohydrate diet to a high-carbohydrate/calorie-restricted diet on weight loss, hormones, and transplanted colon tumor growth. Eighty male C57BL/6 mice consumed a diet-induced obesity regimen (DIO) ad libitum for 7 weeks. From Weeks 8 to 14, the mice consumed a 1) DIO diet ad libitum (HF); 2) low-carbohydrate diet ad libitum (LC); 3) high-carbohydrate diet ad libitum (HC); or 4) HC calorie restricted diet (HC-CR). MC38 cells were injected at Week 15. At the time of injection, the HC-CR group displayed the lowest body weight (25.5 ± 0.57 g), serum insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I; 135 ± 56.0 ng/ml), and leptin (1.0 ± 0.3 ng/ml) levels. This group also exhibited the longest time to palpable tumor (20.1 ± 0.9 days). Compared to the HF group, the HC group exhibited lower body weight (39.4 ± 1.4 vs. 32.9 ± 0.7 g, respectively), IGF-I (604 ± 44.2 vs. 243.4 ± 88.9 ng/ml, respectively), and leptin (15.6 ± 2.2 vs. 7.0 ± 0.7 ng/ml, respectively) levels but similar tumor growth. IGF-I levels were lower in the LC group (320.0 ± 39.9 ng/ml) than the HF group, but tumor growth did not differ. These data suggest LC diets do not slow colon tumor growth in obese mice."
http://www.informawo...tent=a789135089

CR is best again.

Edited by Blue, 17 July 2009 - 08:30 PM.

[Blue]

A comparison not with CR but with very high carbohydrate and moderate diets.

" Individually caged male severe combined immunodeficient mice (n = 130) were randomly assigned to one of three diets (described as percent total calories): very high-fat/no-carbohydrate ketogenic diet (NCKD: 83% fat, 0% carbohydrate, 17% protein), low-fat/high-carbohydrate diet (LFD: 12% fat, 71% carbohydrate, 17% protein), or high-fat/moderate-carbohydrate diet (MCD: 40% fat, 43% carbohydrate, 17% protein). Mice were fed to maintain similar average body weights among groups. Following a preliminary feeding period, mice were injected with 1 x 10⁶ LNCaP cells (day 0) and sacrificed when tumors were 1,000 mm³.

Two days before tumor injection, median NCKD body weight was 2.4 g (10%) and 2.1 g (8%) greater than the LFD and MCD groups, respectively (P < 0.0001). Diet was significantly associated with overall survival (log-rank P = 0.004). Relative to MCD, survival was significantly prolonged for the LFD (hazard ratio, 0.49; 95% confidence interval, 0.29-0.79; P = 0.004) and NCKD groups (hazard ratio, 0.59; 95% confidence interval, 0.37-0.93; P = 0.02). Median serum insulin, IGF-I, IGF-I/IGF binding protein-1 ratio, and IGF-I/IGF binding protein-3 ratio were significantly reduced in NCKD relative to MCD mice. Phospho-AKT/total AKT ratio and pathways associated with antiapoptosis, inflammation, insulin resistance, and obesity were also significantly reduced in NCKD relative to MCD tumors."
http://cancerprevent...bstract/2/6/557

Looks like you should be extreme. Either very high fat or very high carbohydrates. Moderate is worst.

[dubcomesaveme]

Hi, so I'm thinking about trying a RAW KETO diet.
Here are my planned foods:
-Avocados (LOTS of them, staple food). Sprinkle some seasoning\spices on them if necessary.
-Raw egg yolks (all the fat and majority of vitamins\minerals, plus egg whites destroy Biotin)
-Raw salmon (fresh, wild caught)
-Fatty nuts (Hazelnuts, Walnuts, Brazil nuts, Macademia nuts)
-Organic mixed greens or Romaine lettuce, w/cold pressed olive oil
-nutrient dense fruits (to boost vitamin C\certain vitamins, only carb and small amt)

Might add some cheese for calcium\variety.
This should also give me good amounts of all vitamins and minerals without taking supplements. I will need to calculate the nutrients again, but it might have been a bit low on zinc in relation to copper in which case I could eat a raw oyster every once in a while.
This should also eliminate the biggest criticism of traditional bodybuilder keto diets. This contains no processed food, and the majority of calories are not animal\saturated fat.

Also, nuts seem an important snack for ketos, I would recommend Hazelnuts, Walnuts, Brazil nuts, and Macademia nuts.
Do not eat peanuts or cashews. These nuts are NOT healthy to be eaten raw and contain toxins.
I think everyone attempting a keto diet MUST use a nutrient calculator, since you are low carb it limits your options to get all your vitamins naturally.

I'm thinking vitamin B1 might be a good supplement regardless though, as tea\coffee\alcohol greatly reduce it (tannins in tea bind to it if you're a big tea drinker), and I think I read somewhere that ketosis also depletes it, need to check back into this.

[HaloTeK]

I'm thinking vitamin B1 might be a good supplement regardless though, as tea\coffee\alcohol greatly reduce it (tannins in tea bind to it if you're a big tea drinker), and I think I read somewhere that ketosis also depletes it, need to check back into this.

hmm, is that logic derived from the fact that a ketone is an acetone? Figuring that alcohol depletes B1?

Not a fan of being in ketosis here -- it does stress the body-- it has effects on neurotransmitters. Even when i was fully converted to running on ketones, "I" was never able to relax fully. Maybe others have different effects.

[Saber]

Alright guys, after a week of being a vegetarian, I switched over to this diet because of all the compelling evidence.
The thing is, I'm completely bedridden right now because of the hunger and nausea, even though I ate a full meal with fat, protein and fiber. I slept 4 hours last night because, damn it's hard to sleep when you're hungry.
The only thing I can do right now is lay in bed and fantasize about a hot bowl of ramen or a hamburger.
Hard to believe this is normal. I'm thinking it would be pretty funny if I die because this ketogenic diet has all been a long-running inside joke....

It makes me empathize much more with the ancient people who would boil leather shoes to eat when their cities were being besieged.

Oh yes, the pictures are related. The things we do for good health T_T

Attached Files

•  Untitled.png   377.22KB   39 downloads
•  Untitled.png   425.29KB   32 downloads

Edited by Saber, 08 October 2009 - 11:48 AM.

[Saber]

Update on the progress, it's been 5 days since I've started the diet. I still can't tell if I'm going through ketosis. The sickness and hunger on the previous post may have been caused by overindulgence of coconut oil.
My metabolism doesn't feel like it's been turned upside down. There hasn't been any lack of energy compared to before. It doesn't seem as bad as some people here described they went through.

A few things have turned up.
First, there's one spot on my face that feels inflamed and may turn into a cyst. Before, the acne was severe but was kept completely clear by taking 1g taurine and 3g pantothenic acid before every meal. This may probably be caused by the insulin getting agitated that there's no sugar.

Second, I only need to eat once per day, at most twice. Before this diet, I also ate twice per day but was wracked with mood swing and lack of energy. I can still feel the hunger when I go too long without eating, but there's definitely no lack of energy and paralyzing depression as before.

This morning I weighed myself, 122lb. I'm 5'7". I didn't weigh myself before starting but last year at the doctor, my weight was 135lb, and there's been no change until now. I look ridiculously ripped in the mirror for a sedentary person, you can almost count the individual muscles in the abdomen.
There's an increased need to urinate, but I haven't sat on the toilet in 3 days. It's certainly difficult to avoid sugar, there's a surprising amount of sugar and carbs in everything, even in eggs. It's remarkably harder to fix a palatable meal since you can't use sugar, soy sauce or any commercial sauces. Most of them contain HFCS.

This morning I woke up and felt my chest and lower body aching but that may be from sleeping too long.

I had 6 soft-boiled eggs with some pepper spices for the midday meal and 1.5lb of roasted crackling pork belly rolled with lettuce for dinner.

I believe I ate too much protein in the beginning and not enough fat so the body has not been forced through ketosis, but now that I've found a reliable source to purchase pork belly, we will see how things change.

Edited by Saber, 11 October 2009 - 03:37 AM.

[rwac]

There's an increased need to urinate, but I haven't sat on the toilet in 3 days. It's certainly difficult to avoid sugar, there's a surprising amount of sugar and carbs in everything, even in eggs. It's remarkably harder to fix a palatable meal since you can't use sugar, soy sauce or any commercial sauces. Most of them contain HFCS.

You're probably just depleting your glycogen stores, and getting rid of the water associated with those stores.

No fiber+No carbs = you're feeding your gut bacteria less = fewer movements. Are you eating enough fat ?

Carbs in eggs ?! Probably very little.

btw, coconut oil triggers ketosis directly ....

[Saber]

There's an increased need to urinate, but I haven't sat on the toilet in 3 days. It's certainly difficult to avoid sugar, there's a surprising amount of sugar and carbs in everything, even in eggs. It's remarkably harder to fix a palatable meal since you can't use sugar, soy sauce or any commercial sauces. Most of them contain HFCS.

You're probably just depleting your glycogen stores, and getting rid of the water associated with those stores.

No fiber+No carbs = you're feeding your gut bacteria less = fewer movements. Are you eating enough fat ?

Carbs in eggs ?! Probably very little.

btw, coconut oil triggers ketosis directly ....

I tell ya, coconut oil smelled very good at first but it makes me absolutely sick and nauseous now.
In the beginning, my diet consisted of too much lean meat as I couldn't find fattier cuts at the supermarket. You can't even find pork belly at the regular supermarket, most likely due to the high-fat scare, but instead I had to call every butcher shop in town and had to deal with an ethnic grocery store with rather low sanitation score. I'm searching around to see if there's any other better alternative.

I've been seasoning my meat with xylitol and that still has a low impact on insulin. I suspect that overtime, sensitivity to these sweets will grow even greater, then I'll have to find some other way to season my meat.

Getting enough fiber is hard unless one can afford multiple avocados per day, even then it's hard to swallow unless dipped in xylitol and xylitol is still a carb.

It's hard to believe that I'm going through ketosis. It shouldn't be this easy. My body is probably going through gluconeogenesis, instead of ketosis.
Tomorrow I'll find out for sure after buying some ketostix. After eating fat meat for a few days, it should switch over and start using fat as the main source of energy.

Ok, after a little bit of reading, I think I'm definitely in gluconeogenesis, which is not good. Everything feels too normal for this to be ketosis. The first few days I ate a lot of beef chucks and pork sirloin, which is quite lean.
I hope I didn't do any permanent damage, but another source of cheap fat has to be found before I get sick of pork belly.

Edited by Saber, 11 October 2009 - 04:34 AM.

[TheFountain]

Do not eat peanuts or cashews. These nuts are NOT healthy to be eaten raw and contain toxins.

I can't stand when people say stuff like this without explaining it or siting a source. I have read about the toxicity of peanuts but the toxicity of cashews is news to me. So source or I won't believe it.

[rwac]

I tell ya, coconut oil smelled very good at first but it makes me absolutely sick and nauseous now.
In the beginning, my diet consisted of too much lean meat as I couldn't find fattier cuts at the supermarket. You can't even find pork belly at the regular supermarket, most likely due to the high-fat scare, but instead I had to call every butcher shop in town and had to deal with an ethnic grocery store with rather low sanitation score. I'm searching around to see if there's any other better alternative.

I've been seasoning my meat with xylitol and that still has a low impact on insulin. I suspect that overtime, sensitivity to these sweets will grow even greater, then I'll have to find some other way to season my meat.

Getting enough fiber is hard unless one can afford multiple avocados per day, even then it's hard to swallow unless dipped in xylitol and xylitol is still a carb.

It's hard to believe that I'm going through ketosis. It shouldn't be this easy. My body is probably going through gluconeogenesis, instead of ketosis.
Tomorrow I'll find out for sure after buying some ketostix. After eating fat meat for a few days, it should switch over and start using fat as the main source of energy.

It doesn't need to be an all-meat diet. You can still have whey, cream, coconut milk, etc.
Perhaps a shake with these things would work ?

Also, look into stevia. See if you like the taste. It's zero calories.

You know you can also flavor your avocados with salt, pepper and chili powder.

It can't be that hard to find very-low carb seasonings for meat ...

[Saber]

I tell ya, coconut oil smelled very good at first but it makes me absolutely sick and nauseous now.
In the beginning, my diet consisted of too much lean meat as I couldn't find fattier cuts at the supermarket. You can't even find pork belly at the regular supermarket, most likely due to the high-fat scare, but instead I had to call every butcher shop in town and had to deal with an ethnic grocery store with rather low sanitation score. I'm searching around to see if there's any other better alternative.

I've been seasoning my meat with xylitol and that still has a low impact on insulin. I suspect that overtime, sensitivity to these sweets will grow even greater, then I'll have to find some other way to season my meat.

Getting enough fiber is hard unless one can afford multiple avocados per day, even then it's hard to swallow unless dipped in xylitol and xylitol is still a carb.

It's hard to believe that I'm going through ketosis. It shouldn't be this easy. My body is probably going through gluconeogenesis, instead of ketosis.
Tomorrow I'll find out for sure after buying some ketostix. After eating fat meat for a few days, it should switch over and start using fat as the main source of energy.

It doesn't need to be an all-meat diet. You can still have whey, cream, coconut milk, etc.
Perhaps a shake with these things would work ?

Also, look into stevia. See if you like the taste. It's zero calories.

You know you can also flavor your avocados with salt, pepper and chili powder.

It can't be that hard to find very-low carb seasonings for meat ...

I'm avoiding all soy and dairy, so no whey or cream, and coconut milk can't be found around here.

But I'll look into stevia though, thanks.

That was a grave mistake I made there, eating lean meat. I'm glad I found the pork belly because I was feeling a bit sick and unusually hungry for a while.

Edited by Saber, 11 October 2009 - 04:58 AM.

[Saber]

It seems that after the first day, I was going into ketosis after eating a large amount of coconut oil, which was why I felt so ill.
The next day I gorged on lean meat and *correct me on this* it kicked me out of ketosis and the liver started creating glucose from all the protein via gluconeogenesis.

I added a large amount of fat into my diet and started going back into ketosis the last 2 days. I barely had enough energy to stand on one foot yesterday and then there is the joint aches.

What's more disturbing is the disappearance of verbal fluency. I would experience the "tip of the tongue" phenomenon and have since resorted to start using filler words like "uh" or "um" when talking.
Let's see if this still persist when I'm running 100% on ketone.

I have also caved and added dairy back into the diet. It is difficult to consume enough fat otherwise, one can only eat bacon and pork belly for so long.
A few convenient aspects about this diet, two meals per day or even one is perfectly adequate, and that dirty feeling in your mouth is gone.
Brushing now seems more like to remove food particles rather than bacteria and plaque deposits.
Combined with habitual use of xylitol mint, prescription-strength novamin paste and adequate intake of vitamin D and K2, I foresee never going to the dentist again.

[Saber]

Just a little update, I'm feeling very good right now.

In fact, I feel great, greater than I had ever been my whole life. I feel like I can grind the world into dust with my bare fist [lol].
It reminds me of an interview with a crack addict that I saw a few years ago. He said crack made him felt like he could walk to the moon.

That's exactly how I feel right now, like a foggy curtain has been lifted for the first time in my life. I'm eating the exact amount of calories I used to eat on a standard diet, yet this energy is incredible. My body feels lighter than air, full of effortless strength.
I will never go back.

I eat exactly once per day and fast for the next 24 hours
At 5'7" and 125lb, this morning I looked at myself in the mirror and it seems as if all the weakness has left my body leaving behind only sinew, muscle and bone , and iron, raw iron.

This diet is one of the three best things that I have ever found.

Edited by Saber, 21 October 2009 - 01:38 AM.

[lynx]

Getting enough fiber is hard unless one can afford multiple avocados per day, even then it's hard to swallow unless dipped in xylitol and xylitol is still a carb.

Xylitol is a sugar alcohol.

[HaloTeK]

Saber, good luck. Let's see how you feel 6 months to 1 year down the road.

[Saber]

Getting enough fiber is hard unless one can afford multiple avocados per day, even then it's hard to swallow unless dipped in xylitol and xylitol is still a carb.

Xylitol is a sugar alcohol.

A sugar alcohol (also known as a polyol, polyhydric alcohol, or polyalcohol) is a hydrogenated form of carbohydrate, whose carbonyl group (aldehyde or ketone, reducing sugar) has been reduced to a primary or secondary hydroxyl group (hence the alcohol).

If you look on the label of the package of xylitol, it will still list it as a carbohydrate. Xylitol has a very low glycemic index and is metabolize without insulin, but if a person is doing keto, eating too much xylitol will definitely kick them out of ketosis for a few hours.
In any case, I just purchased some stevia. Xylitol is ridiculously expensive and you have to use so much. I used almost half a box just to sweeten some chocolate milkshake.

Saber, good luck. Let's see how you feel 6 months to 1 year down the road.

When on this diet, it can be a bit difficult getting enough fiber. No matter how much lettuce I ate, I still got constipation.
Probably the few great sources of fiber (without a huge impact on carb intake or chewing on a whole lot of veggies like a cow) is cocoa and avocado.
And it doesn't seem like a good idea to eat cocoa too often with its lead content.

My skin is also much better. Just imagine someone did a photoshop gaussian blur on your skin IRL. I'm discontinuing the megadose of b5 after almost a whole year.
It was clear when I was taking taurine and b5, but nothing like this. This just makes the skin look so smooth, almost like you're wearing makeup.

Edited by Saber, 23 October 2009 - 08:09 PM.

[Skötkonung]

Don't worry about fiber, your digestion will normalize as you increase your fat content.

Are you carbohydrate counting? If so, what is your cut off mark? You should have enough margin to add some broccoli and maybe blueberries each day once you've gone through induction. Or other vegetables for that matter.

I too started a ketogenic diet on October 10th following a discussion with Blue about IGF-1. I did blood tests on sex hormones, lipids, and IGF-1 on October 9. The first 6 weeks are without casein. The next six weeks include casein.

Food choice sucks in Keto, but there are some good recipes out there (most of which involve dairy). Just make sure to skip casein, the fat in dairy shouldn't boost IGF-1.

Some of the foods I am eating:
- Steaks & Hamburger
- Fish
- Carb free hot sauce and steak sauce
- Keto eggnog - Cream, Raw egg, Vanilla Extract, Stevia, and other seasonings.
- Cream cheese
- Eggs
- Keto fudge
- Keto cheesecake
- Coconut Curry (coconut milk is almost carb free)
- Meatballs

Just get creative with it Don't skip the MCTs.

The initial brain-fog sucks, I've read that the brain doesn't become fully ketone adapted for about 40 days. But the fog should clear after the first 2-3 days.

[Saber]

Don't worry about fiber, your digestion will normalize as you increase your fat content.

Are you carbohydrate counting? If so, what is your cut off mark? You should have enough margin to add some broccoli and maybe blueberries each day once you've gone through induction. Or other vegetables for that matter.

I too started a ketogenic diet on October 10th following a discussion with Blue about IGF-1. I did blood tests on sex hormones, lipids, and IGF-1 on October 9. The first 6 weeks are without casein. The next six weeks include casein.

Food choice sucks in Keto, but there are some good recipes out there (most of which involve dairy). Just make sure to skip casein, the fat in dairy shouldn't boost IGF-1.

Some of the foods I am eating:
- Steaks & Hamburger
- Fish
- Carb free hot sauce and steak sauce
- Keto eggnog - Cream, Raw egg, Vanilla Extract, Stevia, and other seasonings.
- Cream cheese
- Eggs
- Keto fudge
- Keto cheesecake
- Coconut Curry (coconut milk is almost carb free)
- Meatballs

Just get creative with it Don't skip the MCTs.

The initial brain-fog sucks, I've read that the brain doesn't become fully ketone adapted for about 40 days. But the fog should clear after the first 2-3 days.

There is no longer any fog, but I am not doing anything brain intensive like math to notice. The use of filler words has subsided once again, except I still use "you know" when talking. I wonder if the brain will ever be as good as it was on glucose, though some text says that part of it still utilize glucose.

I'm not carbohydrate counting because some foods you just can't bother counting. It's never enough to kick you out of ketosis.

My primary staples are cream cheese, heavy whip cream, hard cheese, peanut butter, pork, occasional beef, cocoa, lettuce, eggs.
Sometimes I'll have a box of fried beef, chicken, broccoli and onion.

I agonized over the addition of dairy and peanut butter but there was just no way of sustaining it long term without them.
The casein is surrounded in controversy, but it may be just quackery. I'm still researching more on it and watching out for symptoms, if I get attacked with a case of inflammatory bowel disease, dairy is out.

A few notes, all cream cheese here comes wrapped in aluminum foil, not ideal I'm hoping the exposure is relatively low.
Heavy whipping cream at the regular supermarket has carrageenan and gave me stomachache. I can't tell if it is carrageenan or lactose, but since switching to Mexican heavy whipping cream with no carrageenan (noticeably thicker), no stomachache. Probably isn't the carrageenan but I'm avoiding that regardless.

The Mexican whipping cream is almost twice the price of generic grocery store heavy whipping cream and they salt it for some reason so I have to put a copious amount of sweetener in it and eat it like a milkshake. It is different from regular heavy whipping cream for some reason, slightly sour and no buttery dairy smell.

Peanut butter is meant to be a supplement of calories and to add variety. I considered other nut paste but the price was several times higher, still almost the same aflatoxin and omega-6 content, so it seemed like there is no point in choosing fancier nuts. Small limit per day because of the high omega-6. I grew weary of over-supplementing with omega-3, nosebleed and possible long-term unseen side effects.

Beef is nasty or maybe I'm just a bad cook but pork is much more forgiving and palatable eating it day after day, and no fish because of PCB and methylmercury. My special treat once a week is fried pork belly with garlic and wrapped in lettuce.

Cocoa is nasty also without sweetener, plus the lead content. I tried to be manly eating 100% cocoa chocolate but it never got any better. I'm ditching after finishing with this batch.

Taking some time off from coconut oil from that last incident. Avocado is eaten occasionally but it can get expensive.

Soft-boiled eggs eaten almost every other day.
No fruits or a whole lot of veggies for now unless the irregularity problem continuse, they cost a whole lot of money in the states and low in calories. Instead, I'm supplementing with pomegranate, , grape seed, green tea extract, astaxanthin, NA-RALA, garlic and ginger, boswellin and curcumin and other multiminerals and various vitamins.

I'm supplementing with creatine monohydrate as well because meat is only eaten once or twice a week.
It's in no way a perfect regimen but it's constantly changing and I'm a single guy living on a tight budget, doing all I can to survive this Second Great Depression.

Let me know how this diet change your hormone and lipid levels. So far I do not foresee ever going back to the old diet. When acne is popping up everywhere like smallpox, not only do you feel sick, it makes you look sick too. It's just a sick, sick diet [lol].

Not all carbs are bad but most of it is bad when you live in the US. The difference is just indescribable.
When I look at my face in the mirror, it's just unbelievable. I haven't look this healthy since before puberty.
Looking healthy is a big reflection of one's diet, and I ask myself, how can this be bad?

But we won't rule out the possibility yet. All this experimentation, someday we'll reflect on the long-term effects.

Edited by Saber, 24 October 2009 - 01:54 AM.

[marylandmark]

I've had rapid cycling bipolar for 20 years (59 years old)and am essentially treatment resistant after going through all classes of drugs. Someone from California posted their response to having been put on the diet by a doctor at Stanford and that person said the results were fantastic. I'm in the process of getting a referral to a neurologist at Johns Hopkins who has extensive experience with the diet. If that person is still on the diet, I'd like to know how they're doing or from anyone else who has bipolar who is on the diet. Thanks.

[rabagley]

I agonized over the addition of dairy and peanut butter but there was just no way of sustaining it long term without them.
The casein is surrounded in controversy, but it may be just quackery. I'm still researching more on it and watching out for symptoms, if I get attacked with a case of inflammatory bowel disease, dairy is out.

Yeah, it's quackery. Since you're avoiding grains and their leptins you have about a 0% chance of a leaky gut or provoking Crohn's disease and will be fine on dairy. A risk from casein can also appear if you are disabling the pepsin stomach enzyme for any reason. Pepsin is the reason why casein is not a threat to the small intestine. Pepsin denatures the casein micelles in the stomach and renders the aggregate into portions that safely transfer across the villi.

The only real reasons to avoid whole dairy (and it's derivatives) are an acute allergy or lactose intolerance, and even with lactose intolerance, aged cheeses have no lactose, so are safe and healthful.

Peanut butter is meant to be a supplement of calories and to add variety. I considered other nut paste but the price was several times higher, still almost the same aflatoxin and omega-6 content, so it seemed like there is no point in choosing fancier nuts. Small limit per day because of the high omega-6. I grew weary of over-supplementing with omega-3, nosebleed and possible long-term unseen side effects.

Smart to limit your intake of peanut butter, but I agree that as a source of variety, nuts and peanuts are worth the w-6's.

Beef is nasty or maybe I'm just a bad cook but pork is much more forgiving and palatable eating it day after day, and no fish because of PCB and methylmercury. My special treat once a week is fried pork belly with garlic and wrapped in lettuce.

No fish at all? Sardines and other small fish are so low on the food chain and short-lived as to be essentially free of bioaccumulated toxins including both PCB's and mercury. And there are plenty of bigger fish that have incredibly low measured levels of mercury. I don't know of a simple list that includes both low PCB and low mercury, but even with a pretty high degree of mercury paranoia, I'm sure you could come up with a few. Farmed fish are an obvious loss due to PCB contamination, but wild salmon is short lived (low in mercury) and low in PCB's...

I note that you have been supplementing w-3's which means you're probably taking fish oil, though your description of actual side effects means you're probably taking a lot. I take 1 tbsp of Carlson's/day for 4500mg w-3's with no signs of increased bleeding.

Also, you don't mention chicken, but skin-on chicken could add some welcome variety and is a great base for playing with spices. I love that the healthiest and tastiest cut of chicken, the thigh, is also the cheapest by far here in the US. Sadly, most chicken in the US is pretty flavorless. After eating some pastured ($$$) chicken, I'm always a little disappointed, but the fat is still good and spices help a lot.

It's in no way a perfect regimen but it's constantly changing and I'm a single guy living on a tight budget, doing all I can to survive this Second Great Depression.

It's very difficult to eat healthy on a tight budget, so huge props for doing so well with what you've got. Every day that goes by with you on this diet is a day of feeling better with more energy and staying far, far away from CVD, diabetes, etc.

[Saber]

I agonized over the addition of dairy and peanut butter but there was just no way of sustaining it long term without them.
The casein is surrounded in controversy, but it may be just quackery. I'm still researching more on it and watching out for symptoms, if I get attacked with a case of inflammatory bowel disease, dairy is out.

Yeah, it's quackery. Since you're avoiding grains and their leptins you have about a 0% chance of a leaky gut or provoking Crohn's disease and will be fine on dairy. A risk from casein can also appear if you are disabling the pepsin stomach enzyme for any reason. Pepsin is the reason why casein is not a threat to the small intestine. Pepsin denatures the casein micelles in the stomach and renders the aggregate into portions that safely transfer across the villi.

The only real reasons to avoid whole dairy (and it's derivatives) are an acute allergy or lactose intolerance, and even with lactose intolerance, aged cheeses have no lactose, so are safe and healthful.

Peanut butter is meant to be a supplement of calories and to add variety. I considered other nut paste but the price was several times higher, still almost the same aflatoxin and omega-6 content, so it seemed like there is no point in choosing fancier nuts. Small limit per day because of the high omega-6. I grew weary of over-supplementing with omega-3, nosebleed and possible long-term unseen side effects.

Smart to limit your intake of peanut butter, but I agree that as a source of variety, nuts and peanuts are worth the w-6's.

Beef is nasty or maybe I'm just a bad cook but pork is much more forgiving and palatable eating it day after day, and no fish because of PCB and methylmercury. My special treat once a week is fried pork belly with garlic and wrapped in lettuce.

No fish at all? Sardines and other small fish are so low on the food chain and short-lived as to be essentially free of bioaccumulated toxins including both PCB's and mercury. And there are plenty of bigger fish that have incredibly low measured levels of mercury. I don't know of a simple list that includes both low PCB and low mercury, but even with a pretty high degree of mercury paranoia, I'm sure you could come up with a few. Farmed fish are an obvious loss due to PCB contamination, but wild salmon is short lived (low in mercury) and low in PCB's...

I note that you have been supplementing w-3's which means you're probably taking fish oil, though your description of actual side effects means you're probably taking a lot. I take 1 tbsp of Carlson's/day for 4500mg w-3's with no signs of increased bleeding.

Also, you don't mention chicken, but skin-on chicken could add some welcome variety and is a great base for playing with spices. I love that the healthiest and tastiest cut of chicken, the thigh, is also the cheapest by far here in the US. Sadly, most chicken in the US is pretty flavorless. After eating some pastured ($$) chicken, I'm always a little disappointed, but the fat is still good and spices help a lot.

It's in no way a perfect regimen but it's constantly changing and I'm a single guy living on a tight budget, doing all I can to survive this Second Great Depression.

It's very difficult to eat healthy on a tight budget, so huge props for doing so well with what you've got. Every day that goes by with you on this diet is a day of feeling better with more energy and staying far, far away from CVD, diabetes, etc.

Yes, it's practically impossible to do this diet without dairy. No ill effect so far accept cystic acne when drinking half and half cream, which has been discontinued. The carrageenan concerns me enough to discontinue heavy cream all together and I couldn't find one brand of heavy cream without carrageenan.

I discontinued peanut butter until the shipment of N-acetylglucosamine comes in, added roasted almond and walnut.

Meat is eaten rarely now mainly because of inconvenience, freezing, thawing, seasoning, cooking. I rely on eggs, casein and nuts to provide complete protein and supplementing with creatine.

Vegetable is also rarely eaten, completely cut out due to cost. Almond and walnut provide more than enough fiber and I rely on supplements for polyphenols and antioxidants.

I do not know if supplementation with carnosine and carnitine is truly required on a low meat diet. If anyone knows the answer to this, feel free to chime in.

My diet right now consist of mozzarella cheese, cream cheese (possibly cutting out soon), almond, walnut, eggs, cocoa (cutting out when supply runs out), supplements (full-spectrum minerals, vit. C, B-complex, b12 lozenge, pantothenic acid, green tea extract, grape seed extract, pomeratrol, boswellin, curcumin, garlic&ginger, fish oil, taurine, mk-7, NA-RALA, astaxanthin, super enzymes)

[rabagley]

My diet right now consist of mozzarella cheese, cream cheese (possibly cutting out soon), almond, walnut, eggs, cocoa (cutting out when supply runs out), supplements (full-spectrum minerals, vit. C, B-complex, b12 lozenge, pantothenic acid, green tea extract, grape seed extract, pomeratrol, boswellin, curcumin, garlic&ginger, fish oil, taurine, mk-7, NA-RALA, astaxanthin, super enzymes)

Two notable things that might be missing from what I see are Vitamin D3 and potassium (potassium could be in the full-spectrum minerals, but usually isn't). For Vitamin D3, 4000-10,000 IU's/day has caused exactly zero toxicity events and is about what you would get if you worked outdoors without your shirt. The most economical route I've found for Vitamin D is the LEF drops, with about 900 drops at 2000 IU's/drop. For potassium, I like to buy Morton "Lite Salt" for seasoning my eggs. That's more than enough to compensate for the losses that normally happens when your body dumps excess sodium.

Otherwise, keep up the good work, and good luck with getting your budget back. Let us know how things keep going.

[kismet]

I've read the words "healthy" but the page does not contain the words "fruit" or "vegetable". Something's off with this regimen (can't get one w/o the other). You're living off dairy, nuts, eggs and supplements? I'll leave it at that.

Edited by kismet, 01 November 2009 - 06:15 PM.

[rabagley]

I've read the words "healthy" but the page does not contain the words "fruit" or "vegetable". Something's off with this regimen (can't get one w/o the other). You're living off dairy, nuts, eggs and supplements? I'll leave it at that.

Based on my reading of the science, humans are non-obligate carnivores, which overlaps with omnivore, but I think is more accurate.

Fruits are absolutely optional, and should be considered with some suspicion given how modern grocery-store fruit is. The modern apple is only slightly older than canola oil from a human adaptation perspective. Most vegetables are not necessary either, though they may add some welcome variety to a diet of mostly fat, meat, and eggs. Dairy is as new as other modern foods, but certain dairy products can have the protein/fat/vitamin balance of fatty meat and since many modern humans have adapted to dairy I don't feel guilty about adding it to my otherwise imitation paleo diet.

I've now been thriving for two years with a diet where 80-90% of calories are from animal sources. Vegetables are excuses for me to pile on butter and try out different spices. My weight is down, my pre-diabetes remains a distant memory (still testing fasting glucose in the morning), my blood lipid panel is exactly where I want it, my daily energy level is stable and great, my heart scan is clear, everything in my life is full speed ahead...

[Saber]

I've read the words "healthy" but the page does not contain the words "fruit" or "vegetable". Something's off with this regimen (can't get one w/o the other). You're living off dairy, nuts, eggs and supplements? I'll leave it at that.

Fruits are not all that healthy as conventional wisdom dictates. Fructose is still controversial when associated with fruits, but knowing that it is fed to mice to induce diabetes for research purposes and with a family history of diabetes, I tend to steer away from it.
There may be some miracle substance in fruits that cannot be obtained from supplements, some undiscovered vitamin and maybe I'll fall over dead one day from fruit-deficiency, but I have decided to take the chance, and most of us are taking chances using these supplements.
But it is either that, or eat a "natural and healthy" diet like everyone in the family does and "hope" against all odds that I won't develop diabetes.

As for vegetables, cost is the real reason. The money spent on supplements is surprisingly low and right now they are the only option for maintaining adequate intake of minerals, vitamins and phytochemicals.
I'd love to add them in the future, then again I'd like to be able to afford some organic grass-fed beef, too. But we have to make do with what we have. Eating healthy is extremely expensive.
Right now, I'm healthier than I have ever been in my life and I'll continue down this path until proven wrong by evidence, and I am easily swayed by good evidence.

[niner]

...my blood lipid panel is exactly where I want it, my daily energy level is stable and great, my heart scan is clear, everything in my life is full speed ahead...

And just at that moment, some workmen were hoisting a large safe up to the 7th floor when the rope snapped...

[rabagley]

...my blood lipid panel is exactly where I want it, my daily energy level is stable and great, my heart scan is clear, everything in my life is full speed ahead...

And just at that moment, some workmen were hoisting a large safe up to the 7th floor when the rope snapped...

At this point, I believe the science points to this dietary model (high-fat, high-sat-fat) as the lowest risk approach. I truly and deeply understand that that doesn't mean zero-risk.

Edited by rabagley, 04 November 2009 - 05:39 AM.

[kismet]

At this point, I believe the science points to this dietary model (high-fat, high-sat-fat) as the lowest risk approach. I truly and deeply understand that that doesn't mean zero-risk.

What science? Clearly the posted evidence - and only if I am in generous mood - supports the notion that we're clueless, but generally, yes, it does support high fat, high MUFA, low SFA diets. OTOH maybe I missed some of the high quality evidence (or maybe the rope will really snap?)