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Ketogenic diets


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#361 ProphetofProfit

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 09:08 PM

How many calories are the keto people getting per day? My brain isn't working properly and I'm desperate to get into ketosis to see if there is any improvement. My problem is that I need at least 2500kcals per day, more than that to gain weight, and my appetite is not good at the best of times. Without my dietary staple of full fat milk and whey protein, how do I get anyway near 3000kcals?

#362 rwac

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 11:05 PM

How many calories are the keto people getting per day? My brain isn't working properly and I'm desperate to get into ketosis to see if there is any improvement. My problem is that I need at least 2500kcals per day, more than that to gain weight, and my appetite is not good at the best of times. Without my dietary staple of full fat milk and whey protein, how do I get anyway near 3000kcals?

Just use heavy cream/coconut milk instead of the milk.

Edited by rwac, 25 January 2011 - 11:05 PM.


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#363 ProphetofProfit

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 07:27 PM

Just a note to say that MCT oil is more cost effective that Coconut oil, which is about 59% MCT while the MCT is 100%.

Stay away from diet coke while entering ketosis too. Aspartam and citric acid were mentioned in Lyle McDonalds book as preventing ketosis and I've seen lots of anecdotal reports of people struggling to enter ketosis while on diet beverages.

#364 Thorsten3

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 05:31 PM

Just a note to say that MCT oil is more cost effective that Coconut oil, which is about 59% MCT while the MCT is 100%.

Stay away from diet coke while entering ketosis too. Aspartam and citric acid were mentioned in Lyle McDonalds book as preventing ketosis and I've seen lots of anecdotal reports of people struggling to enter ketosis while on diet beverages.


That's an expensive book.

#365 zohahunt

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 08:26 AM

I need to find out the best diet for my health .I am very thin and it's like a disease that whatever I eat it's not rule my body.

#366 Namkcalb

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 09:12 AM

Hmm... I read Lyle McDonald's book, but I'm still a bit confused whether a ketogenic diet is best for me. If I understand it correctly, a ketogenic diet is one where you try to rely on fat sources for all your bodies energy, and for 75% of the brain's energy.

I'm a student, so I care less about weightloss than I do with the stable energy its' meant to give me, if it boosts my focus then that's a plus too, I have a minor disability which affects my energy and concentration amongst other things, so this is very important.

What I am worried about however, is whether I really can live healthily on 30-40 grams of glucose a day. Even a carbohydrate free can of salmon can be metabolised to 40 grams and that leaves me nothing for veggies.

I'm currently eating about 130 grams of protein and about 10 grams of carbs as McDonald recommends a minimum of 150g of protein for the first couple of weeks,carbs counting double. My mental energy has been stable, if a bit low and I've been doing it for a few weeks. Yesterday, I ate 70 grams of protein and 100 grams of carbs (sugary chocolate), and I've been so unproductive today.

What would you lot suggest?

#367 Skötkonung

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 01:08 AM

What I am worried about however, is whether I really can live healthily on 30-40 grams of glucose a day. Even a carbohydrate free can of salmon can be metabolised to 40 grams and that leaves me nothing for veggies.

Don't bother with all that...

Ketogenic diet can be made much easier. 1g/kg protein as a baseline. No more than 50g of carbohydrate daily. The rest should come from fat, preferably MCTs like coconut oil. The 50g carbohydrate should come primarily from nutrient dense plant greens (kale, spinach, broccoli, cauliflower, chard) and nuts. Trace carbohydrates from organ meats (liver has some carbohydrate).

On a diet like this you willl produce ketones (you should verify with ketone strips). In time, your body will rely less on glucose and more on ketones. I've been doing a ketogenic diet (off and on) for years and I've never had mental performance issues other than the initial brainfog while keto adapting. Just make sure you're getting enough calories and meeting your RDIs for important nutrients. And if you do decided to keep doing a ketogenic diet, make sure to watch your intake of omega 6 fats. With such a high fat intake, it is very easy to get way too much of these inflammatory fats.

For instance, yesterday I got 212.7g of fat. Of those, 5.1g were omega 3 and 6.4g were omega 6. And that's not counting the omega 3 in the cod liver oil I take. Even with a diet of 71% fat, I still get less omega 6 and more omega 3 than the average American. :)

Edited by Skötkonung, 01 March 2011 - 01:08 AM.


#368 Namkcalb

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 05:39 AM

What I am worried about however, is whether I really can live healthily on 30-40 grams of glucose a day. Even a carbohydrate free can of salmon can be metabolised to 40 grams and that leaves me nothing for veggies.

Don't bother with all that...

Ketogenic diet can be made much easier. 1g/kg protein as a baseline. No more than 50g of carbohydrate daily. The rest should come from fat, preferably MCTs like coconut oil. The 50g carbohydrate should come primarily from nutrient dense plant greens (kale, spinach, broccoli, cauliflower, chard) and nuts. Trace carbohydrates from organ meats (liver has some carbohydrate).

On a diet like this you willl produce ketones (you should verify with ketone strips). In time, your body will rely less on glucose and more on ketones. I've been doing a ketogenic diet (off and on) for years and I've never had mental performance issues other than the initial brainfog while keto adapting. Just make sure you're getting enough calories and meeting your RDIs for important nutrients. And if you do decided to keep doing a ketogenic diet, make sure to watch your intake of omega 6 fats. With such a high fat intake, it is very easy to get way too much of these inflammatory fats.

For instance, yesterday I got 212.7g of fat. Of those, 5.1g were omega 3 and 6.4g were omega 6. And that's not counting the omega 3 in the cod liver oil I take. Even with a diet of 71% fat, I still get less omega 6 and more omega 3 than the average American. :)

Exactly the kind of info I was looking for, thank you.
I try to minimise my Omega 6, Macadamia nut oil is perfect for this.
I kind of fell of the horse this week, but this info should help me get back on track

#369 vato

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 06:04 PM

it has been a while since i joined this topic...

it has also been a while since i gave up the ketogenic diet. the reason for this is the nutrient deficiency i tend to work up to and the inability to do the resistance training workouts as i want to.
the other issues i came across was that i had to substitute ALL carbs with protein, which was actually very expensive so i went to buy casein protein powder.
this casein was also mechanically processed from milk. and eating fish all day is dangerous because of the contaminations like mercury for example.
eating plain butter is not so nice on the stomach as well as other issues.

I LOVE the ketogenic feel, it makes me energetic never hungry and so on but i dont feel i get enough nutrients when my diet is about 80% butter/coconut oil.

so i basically broke my diet down to non-ketogenic and just dont eat for 24 hours once a week to get a ketosis or just dont eat a few hours before training.
i try to keep my fat burning up by eating low glycemic carb sources like bananas and milk. they are great nutrient dense foods and help me with my workouts.
i also toss in eggs daily and mackerel fish. ocassionally some veggies but that's it and i feel great! and when i want to get the ketosis feeling i just take some L-Theanine which does the same as ketogenic fuel to the brain so...

i'm very fit and happy at the moment and make sure i'm not eating anything that contains 'hardened/hydrogenated vegetable oil' my snacks are just fruits!
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#370 Thorsten3

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 11:08 AM

it has been a while since i joined this topic...

it has also been a while since i gave up the ketogenic diet. the reason for this is the nutrient deficiency i tend to work up to and the inability to do the resistance training workouts as i want to.
the other issues i came across was that i had to substitute ALL carbs with protein, which was actually very expensive so i went to buy casein protein powder.
this casein was also mechanically processed from milk. and eating fish all day is dangerous because of the contaminations like mercury for example.
eating plain butter is not so nice on the stomach as well as other issues.

I LOVE the ketogenic feel, it makes me energetic never hungry and so on but i dont feel i get enough nutrients when my diet is about 80% butter/coconut oil.

so i basically broke my diet down to non-ketogenic and just dont eat for 24 hours once a week to get a ketosis or just dont eat a few hours before training.
i try to keep my fat burning up by eating low glycemic carb sources like bananas and milk. they are great nutrient dense foods and help me with my workouts.
i also toss in eggs daily and mackerel fish. ocassionally some veggies but that's it and i feel great! and when i want to get the ketosis feeling i just take some L-Theanine which does the same as ketogenic fuel to the brain so...

i'm very fit and happy at the moment and make sure i'm not eating anything that contains 'hardened/hydrogenated vegetable oil' my snacks are just fruits!


How many carbs per day are you on now then? incl the fruits? Are you stil mixing this with a high intake of saturated fat?

I've lost control of my carb intake lately and it's probably around the 100g mark, maybe more. I still want to reduce it but just need to do some more thinking about food choices. I'm definitely enjoying the greater variety of food though.

Why didn't you try a multivitamin alongside your keto diet?

Edited by Thorsten, 19 April 2011 - 11:12 AM.


#371 vato

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 05:41 PM

it has been a while since i joined this topic...

it has also been a while since i gave up the ketogenic diet. the reason for this is the nutrient deficiency i tend to work up to and the inability to do the resistance training workouts as i want to.
the other issues i came across was that i had to substitute ALL carbs with protein, which was actually very expensive so i went to buy casein protein powder.
this casein was also mechanically processed from milk. and eating fish all day is dangerous because of the contaminations like mercury for example.
eating plain butter is not so nice on the stomach as well as other issues.

I LOVE the ketogenic feel, it makes me energetic never hungry and so on but i dont feel i get enough nutrients when my diet is about 80% butter/coconut oil.

so i basically broke my diet down to non-ketogenic and just dont eat for 24 hours once a week to get a ketosis or just dont eat a few hours before training.
i try to keep my fat burning up by eating low glycemic carb sources like bananas and milk. they are great nutrient dense foods and help me with my workouts.
i also toss in eggs daily and mackerel fish. ocassionally some veggies but that's it and i feel great! and when i want to get the ketosis feeling i just take some L-Theanine which does the same as ketogenic fuel to the brain so...

i'm very fit and happy at the moment and make sure i'm not eating anything that contains 'hardened/hydrogenated vegetable oil' my snacks are just fruits!


How many carbs per day are you on now then? incl the fruits? Are you stil mixing this with a high intake of saturated fat?

I've lost control of my carb intake lately and it's probably around the 100g mark, maybe more. I still want to reduce it but just need to do some more thinking about food choices. I'm definitely enjoying the greater variety of food though.

Why didn't you try a multivitamin alongside your keto diet?


most importantly i cut most wheat from my diet, cookies and candy. i still believe wheat is what destroys peoples metabolism in the long term.
people tend to develope belly from insulin resistance and the gluten from wheat is not good for our body. also to prevent insulin resistance i eat fish, workout and prevent trans-fats (so basically all processed foods like cookies and crisps).
i think im at 150 grams of carbs a day, at 100-150 grams of fat per day and around 120 grams protein... so still i emphase on the fats as primary source.
about the ketosis, i just keep a 24-36 hour fast once a week to reset my system and get some ketones going. i don't feel i need to be in ketosis 24/7 to be healthy and happy

#372 kismet

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 08:20 PM

Can't this diet just die until there is evidence it is useful in the healthy?
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#373 frederickson

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 01:58 PM

Can't this diet just die until there is evidence it is useful in the healthy?


and who exactly do you expect to fund a study of ketogenic diets in healthy people?!?

let's pretend for a moment that i live in fantasy fundingland with you, and say that i received a million dollar grant to conduct a clinical trial studying ketogenic diets in healthy people. this would obviously never happen because i live in the real world where funding is extremely tight and generally reserved for interventions to treat a disease condition, but i will indulge your request for evidence anyway and ask you a few questions.

1.) what is the primary outcome that you intend to assess, especially considering that the participants of this study are healthy?

2.) are you operating under the hypothesis that ketogenic diets are inherently unhealthy and cause some deleterious outcome? lipids, for instance? in order to be properly powered, this study is going to take a hell of a lot of participants (and thus mega-funding) to be powered to determine clinically-relevant effects for this kind of outcome.

3.) how long do you propose that the trial will be? again, these are healthy people and using anything other than surrogate endpoints (which are of dubious value to begin with) would likely take years to notice any differences in the development of disease.

4.) weight loss is the most obvious outcome in low-carb/ketogenic studies - one that has been repeatedly validated as successful on these types of diets - but these healthy people presumably do not need to lose weight. so again, what is the meaningful outcome that you expect in the evidence for ketogenic diets in healthy people?

5.) you obviously cannot conduct a cohort study or any other form of observational study since there aren't enough healthy people on ketogenic diets so this would need to be a clinical trial.

though lacking in understanding of the reality of research funding, i do know that you are a methodologically savvy poster and i would be curious to obtain your input on these issues. moreover, how would you design a properly-powered clinical trial with meaningful outcomes that you would consider to be compelling evidence?

we need to remember the time-tested adage that "absence of evidence does not equal absence of effect". ketogenic diets in healthy people will not be studied anytime soon for the reasons i have outlined above and many others. so instead of foolishly holding one's breath until the evidence in healthy people magically appears (because it won't), i would say prudent consideration of the evidence that does exist in other populations, assessing the biological plausibility of the diet for individual concerns, and controlled personal experimentation with the diet (carefully noting changes in health, energy, lab values, etc.) is the best that one can do.
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#374 Mind

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 10:08 PM

A possible key finding explaining the known benefits of the ketogenic diet.

While ketone bodies such as βOHB can be toxic when present at very high concentrations in people with diseases such as Type I diabetes, researchers in the laboratory of Gladstone Senior Investigator Eric Verdin, MD found that at lower concentrations, βOHB actually helps protect cells from “oxidative stress” — which occurs as certain molecules build to toxic levels in the body and contributes to the aging process.
This fundamental discovery reveals how such a diet could slow the aging process and may one day allow scientists to better treat or prevent age-related diseases, including heart disease, Alzheimer’s disease, and many forms of cancer.

“Over the years, studies have found that restricting calories slows aging and increases longevity — however the mechanism of this effect has remained elusive,” Dr. Verdin said. He directs the Center for HIV & Aging at Gladstone and is also a professor at the University of California, San Francisco, with which Gladstone is affiliated. “Here, we find that βOHB — the body’s major source of energy during exercise or fasting — blocks a class of enzymes that would otherwise promote oxidative stress, thus protecting cells from aging,” he said.

Oxidative stress occurs as cells use oxygen to produce energy, but this activity also releases other potentially toxic molecules, known as free radicals. As cells age, they become less effective in clearing these free radicals — leading to cell damage, oxidative stress, and the effects of aging.


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#375 smithx

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 12:14 AM

I came here to post a link to this same article.

I'm back on low carb (even lower carb) again until someone convinces me otherwise.

#376 reason

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 12:40 PM

Here is one research result among the many generated by scientists investigating the biochemistry of calorie restriction, seeking after a greater understanding of how it improves health and extends life:

[Researchers] examined the role of the compound β-hydroxybutyrate (βOHB), a so-called "ketone body" that is produced during a prolonged low-calorie or ketogenic diet. While ketone bodies such as βOHB can be toxic when present at very high concentrations in people with diseases such as Type I diabetes, Dr. Verdin and colleagues found that at lower concentrations, βOHB helps protect cells from "oxidative stress" - which occurs as certain molecules build to toxic levels in the body and contributes to the aging process.

"Over the years, studies have found that restricting calories slows aging and increases longevity - however the mechanism of this effect has remained elusive. Here, we find that βOHB - the body's major source of energy during exercise or fasting - blocks a class of enzymes that would otherwise promote oxidative stress, thus protecting cells from aging."

The researchers found that calorie restriction spurs βOHB production, which blocked the activity of a class of enzymes called histone deacetylases, or HDACs. Normally HDACs keep a pair of genes, called Foxo3a and Mt2, switched off. But increased levels of βOHB block the HDACs from doing so, which by default activates the two genes. Once activated, these genes kick-start a process that helps cells resist oxidative stress.

Link: http://www.scienceda...21206142025.htm


<br> <br>View the full article

#377 xEva

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 02:31 AM

Here is one research result among the many generated by scientists investigating the biochemistry of calorie restriction, seeking after a greater understanding of how it improves health and extends life:

...

The researchers found that calorie restriction spurs beta-OHB production, which blocked the activity of a class of enzymes ... Once activated, these genes kick-start a process that helps cells resist oxidative stress.


This sounds as if CR leads to ketone production in humans, which is misleading. The way it is normally implemented, CR leads to ketosis in mice. Mice end up fasting on CR. Humans and, apparently monkeys, don't. Humans need to restrict carbs to spur ketone production. Or to fast. A simple CR, without carb-restriction, will not do.
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#378 kriirk

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 03:40 PM

Since the very first time I heard about CR, I suspected that results are due to Carbohydrate (and certain aminos) Restriction rather than Calorie Restriction.

(Probably a good thing that this was never flagged before though, since there is a very strong lobby against low carbohydrate research.)

#379 normalizing

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 07:52 PM

questions; by restricting carbs do you mean avoid all legumes like beans completely? also, how high is the chance of being severely constipated on this diet?



#380 pamojja

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 10:07 PM

questions; by restricting carbs do you mean avoid all legumes like beans completely? also, how high is the chance of being severely constipated on this diet?

 

I restrict carbs for cardiovascular benefits (blood sugar, tryglycerides, sdLDL...) and avoid legumes but not nuts. However, get a lot of fiber too and have at least twice a day stool.



#381 normalizing

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 08:09 AM

and carbs from legumes are not cardiovascular friendly? i have read quite few opposite results



#382 pamojja

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 08:48 AM

and carbs from legumes are not cardiovascular friendly? i have read quite few opposite results

 

Not necessarily. But in my case and trying to keep blood glucose in a healthy range after each individual meal, I found it easier to do so without legumes (or anything with more carbs which more likely raises it).
 



#383 playground

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 02:57 AM

How do you know when you are keto adapted ?

What are the signs ?



#384 normalizing

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 01:54 PM

ketosis. get those ketosis strips sold at stores

 

back to the legumes carbs, quite few studies claim legumes are good for the heart, so its not the carbs then? though, they are loaded!


Edited by normalizing, 12 June 2016 - 01:55 PM.


#385 playground

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 02:42 PM

No Normalising... I am asking about "keto adaptation".

This is not the same as ketosis.

 

I am in ketosis right now.

I expect to be in ketosis for 3 plus weeks.

At the end of that period I expect to be "keto adapted".

 

My question is.  How will i know when my body has finally become "keto adapted"

 



#386 mikeinnaples

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 05:25 PM

Keto strips work. While in ketosis and in the process of becoming keto adapted, large amounts of ketones will appear in your urine. Once your body is fully adapted, that number should drastically drop off.

 


Edited by mikeinnaples, 27 June 2016 - 05:26 PM.

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#387 mikeinnaples

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 05:28 PM

Physically for me, while becoming keto adapated. I generally feel like shit and low energy. Once I am adapated, my mental clarity if better than it is off keto and I have more energy. I can also tell I am fully keto adapted because when I run out of fat stores to burn, my energy completely disappears ....then rapidly returns once I intake fat. (noticeable to me because on of my hobbies is surfing, and I can spend hours on end in the water)


Edited by mikeinnaples, 27 June 2016 - 05:29 PM.

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#388 Heisok

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 06:44 PM

Hi Mike. Good info. Are you saying that once you are keto adapted, that you then drop out of ketosis? If so, do you keep limiting carbs?

#389 shifter

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 05:59 AM

I've been doing a severely calorie restricted keto diet this month in an effort to lose weight. From 81kgs at the start to 74 kgs 4 weeks later (7kg or 15.4lbs). I tried a 'fat bomb' the other day. Apart from a few nuts and 1 piece of salmon throughout the day, watching a movie at the cinema at night I had a block of 90% lindt chocolate with some 100% peanut butter for dip and full fat cream cheese for a dip. About the only time I've ever been 'full' watching a movie in the cinema. I'm sure despite the massive amount of fat in that, I'd had less calories than people drinking giant cups of coke and a bucket of popcorn or bags of chips and they were probably still hungry and had a massive surge of insulin released turning their already excessive caloric intake into fat (despite not eating any fat) whereas the fat I consumed was utilised for energy and not for storage thereby still losing weight despite the OMG SATURATED FAT IS BAD

 

The first lot of weight lost in any diet is not just some fluid but also the amount of undigested food you are no longer burdened carrying. The total length of your intestines equates to about 8 meters in length. If you're someone who constantly eats and then goes on a diet that restricts a lot of food intake, well the 8 meter tube filled with food doesn't really count. I have also noticed that when you aren't 'full of sh!t' you feel much more great and motivated to do stuff. When you are full of it, you become more lethargic.

 

 

 

 


Edited by shifter, 28 June 2016 - 06:00 AM.

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#390 normalizing

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 06:35 AM

i wonder how probiotics manage on restricted fat diets. not sure how bacterias will use fat as energy...






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