103 replies to this topic

[reason]

Here's a question for you fredv - if you were having a ball at 101 years, healthy, active, the works, then would you just up and suicide? I'm guessing that you - like most people - would choose to take on another healthy, active interesting day following your 101st birthday if that were the case.

Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme
reason@longevitymeme.org
http://www.longevitymeme.org

[fredv]

101 Is just an arbitrary number....

I of course would want to remain as healthy and lucid as possible for as long as possible.

But there is a fine line between wanting to live as healthy as possible for long as possible and having your head lopped off at death and frozen in nitrogen.

As longer as you understand that then we are talking the same thing.

[reason]

Cryonics is best viewed as speculative emergency medical care - no-one wants to be put in circumstances where they have to go through it, but it beats the other alternatives under those circumstances.

http://www.longevity...cs/cryonics.cfm

Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme
reason@longevitymeme.org
http://www.longevitymeme.org

[prologue]

has anyone done the 30 day test with TBARs checked before and after....very curious as to oxidative stress since i swim super long distances. wanting to prevent oxidative stress as much as live longer (healthier whilst i am breathing). let us know.

[biknut]

I started taking Protandim June 10th.

Just for the record, i like protandim and what it seems to be doing.

Edited by biknut, 30 January 2006 - 05:07 PM.

[scottl]

Biknut,

If you read comments By Justin and others (above), it is not that the ingredients are not helpful, just nothing special to many of us already taking supps....

[biknut]

scott,


I'm totally open minded about other approaches. If anyone knows of a supplement that works better than protandim i would consider it. I'd like to see the research that supports the claim. Research that supports protandim is at www.protandim.com.

Edited by biknut, 30 January 2006 - 05:04 PM.

[scottl]

scott,

  i'm totally open minded about other approaches. if anyone knows of a supplement that works beter than protandim i would consider it. i'd like to see the research that supports the claim. research that supports protandim is at www.protandim.com.

If you go here:

http://www.pdrhealth...ugs/index.shtml

you will find research on a zillion supps.


A basic supplement regimen (depending on age) should start with the basics as I described here:

http://www.imminst.o...T&f=6&t=7985&s=

which is a thread which is presently inacessable, but which I would imagine you would be able to see within a day or two. Briefly the fundamental supps which one should start with before adding any others IMHO consists of vit c, a good multi including some B vitamins and trace/macro minerals, and a multi-tocopherol. Then add stuff from there. Otherwise what you are doing is...kinda like building a house...putting up wallpaper in one room, while there is stillno foundation in another.


As far as research on protandim, in order for it to mean anything you would have to know the doses of supps SUPPLIED IN PROTANDIM, and then have research showing that that particular combination of supps has...whatever benefit.

[Pablo M]

i started taking protandim june 10th. i have tried without sucess to find a place to get a tbar test. my doctor never even heard of tbar's. i called clinics and hospitals around town and only found 1 person on the phone that even knew what a tbar test is. they said a doctor has to order the test. i asked my doctor to call them and find out about it. he said it cost $200 with his discount, but it seems it was not the test i want because they said it was a urine test. i think the test talked about on the webb sight is a serum test. is anyone able to recommend a way i can get this tbar test?

just for the record, i like protandim and what it seems to be doing. i'm sleeping better than i have in years. i'm 51 yrs old and very active. i see all kinds of negative things being said about the company that makes protandim. it looks like a lot of people want them to fail. even though i can't find a tbar test myself, i'm sure they can be found somewhere. i have to wonder why somebody, probably a competitor, doesn't just do a tbar test and prove it doesn't work. maybe because the results would show that protandim does reduce tbar's. that's the only claim the webb sight makes.

Biknut, I will sell you a supplement that will decrease your risk of heart disease and cataracts and add about 6 years to your life. My supplement is a proprietary blend of vitamin C, quercetin and other mixed bioflavonoids. Sure, you may be able to get this for less elsewhere, but the efficacy of my particular supplement lies in its "proprietary blend" (I fill it up with the cheapest stuff) and the dosage (it's so low it's almost homeopathic). The cost is $80 per month. PM me and I will get it out to your right away (once your check clears of course).

[biknut]

scottl

On the webb sight you reference, i couldn't find one single supplement that reduces oxidative stress (os) as much as protandim. That's because there aren't any. My interest here is reducing os. Protandim is the only supplement on the market to make this claim that has any science to back it up.

Edited by biknut, 30 January 2006 - 05:02 PM.

[biknut]

If you want to say people have been taking the ingredients in protandim for a long time, i agree, that's true, but saying it's nothing new is wrong. It's new.

Edited by biknut, 30 January 2006 - 05:00 PM.

[scottl]

biknut,

Do you have any financial interest in protandim, sales thereof, etc?

[Michael]

All:

prologue:  has anyone done the 30 day test with TBARs checked before and after....

It wouldn't tell you much IAC. TBARS (and MDA, of which TBARS are a breakdown product) is painfully nonspecific and unreliable measure of oxidative stress which can be elevated in assorted metabolic conditions where real oxidative stress & lipid peroxidation are NOT elevated, as measured by direct tests like lipid hydroperoxides or F2 isoprostanes. (1) says (emphasis mine):

"Consequently, neither MDA determination nor [TBARS] can generally be regarded as a diagnostic index of the occurrence/extent of lipid peroxidation, fatty hydroperoxide formation, or oxidative injury to tissue lipid without independent chemical evidence of the analyte being measured and its source."

"In some cases, MDA/TBA reactivity is an indicator of lipid peroxidation; in other situations, no quantitative or qualitative relationship exists among sample MDA content, TBA reactivity, and fatty peroxide tone. "

"Utilization of MDA analysis and/or the TBA test ... require caution, discretion, and ["AND," NB -- not "OR"] (especially in biological systems) correlative data from other indices of fatty peroxide formation and decomposition."

Likewise, "If levels of TBARS are increased, other more sophisticated assays should be performed for verification" (2).

IAC, even if Protandim really did lower oxidative stress, or elevate SOD, that wouldn't prove that it's of any particular benefit. Cyanide is a highly effective antioxidant, but that doesn't mean that it's good for you. "Superoxide dismutase mimetics elevate superoxide dismutase activity in vivo but do not retard aging in the nematode Caenorhabditis elegans" (3); "Ubiquitous overexpression of CuZn superoxide dismutase does not extend life span in mice" (3a).

See the similar case of the widely-misrepresented results with deprenyl:
http://www.imminst.o...t=0

Such a seeming-paradox would be similar to findigngs in other CR & interspecies data. There is NOT a correlation between antioxidant defense enzymes & species max LS, and CR (the only intervention currently available tht retards aging in mammals (with the probable exceptions of pituitary hormone blockage (Ames & Snell dwarf mice) and the overexpression of mitochondrially-targetted catalase), does NOT globally upregulate same (4). However, CR does reduce the production of ROS on-site in mt (5), and decrease the peroxidizability of mt membranes (6) -- correlations which also hold across species (5,6). Since MOST of the ROS to which the organism is exposed come from mt, & since mt are "ground zero" for the ROS they produce (they being highly, umm, REACTIVE oxygen species), it makes sense that if ROS were involved in aging, mt production of, & susceptibility to, same would be focal.

The point: as is agreed by everyone actually in biogerontology, "free radicals" do NOT, in general, cause aging. However, there is a GREAT DEAL of evidence that ROS in the mitochondria do. SINCE CR & hardwired longevity do not have a clear-cut effects against "any ol' ROS," "any ol' ROS" are not involved in aging. SINCE CR & hardwired longevity DO have clear-cut effects against *mt* ROS issues, *mt* ROS issues very probably ARE critical to aging.

If folks are really interested in these subjects, I direct your attention to de Grey's book (7).

-Michael

1. Janero DR.
Malondialdehyde and thiobarbituric acid-reactivity as diagnostic indices of lipid peroxidation and peroxidative tissue injury.
Free Radic Biol Med. 1990;9(6):515-40. Review.
PMID: 2079232

2. Esterbauer H.
Estimation of peroxidative damage. A critical review. Pathol Biol (Paris). 1996 Jan;44(1):25-8. Review.
PMID: 8734296

3. Keaney M, Matthijssens F, Sharpe M, Vanfleteren J, Gems D.
Superoxide dismutase mimetics elevate superoxide dismutase activity in vivo but
do not retard aging in the nematode Caenorhabditis elegans.
Free Radic Biol Med. 2004 Jul 15;37(2):239-50.
PMID: 15203195 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

3a. Huang TT, Carlson EJ, Gillespie AM, Shi Y, Epstein CJ.
Ubiquitous overexpression of CuZn superoxide dismutase does not extend life
span in mice.
J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 2000 Jan;55(1):B5-9.
PMID: 10719757 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

4. de Grey (2000), "The non-correlation between maximum lifespan and antioxidant enzyme levels among homeotherms: implications for retarding human aging." J. Anti-Aging Med. 3(1):25-36.

5. Barja G.
Endogenous oxidative stress: relationship to aging, longevity and caloric restriction.
Ageing Res Rev. 2002 Jun;1(3):397-411. Review.
PMID: 12067594

6. Pamplona R, Barja G, Portero-Otin M.
Membrane fatty acid unsaturation, protection against oxidative stress, and maximum life span: a homeoviscous-longevity adaptation?
Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2002 Apr;959:475-90. Review.
PMID: 11976221 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


7. de Grey AD. The mitochondrial free radical theory of aging. 1999; Austin, TX: Landes Bioscience. (ISBN 1-57059-564-X).

[Pablo M]

if you want to say people have been taking the ingredients in protandim for a long time, i agree, that's true, but saying it's nothing new, i don't think we can say that. just taking the ingredients isn't protandim. for one thing nobody knows what the proportions are, but that's not the only important thing to consider. lets just look at ashwaganda. it's said to have about 11 compounds in it alone that are beneficial. we don't know if they are using all 11 or maybe just concentrating 2 or 3. same goes for the other ingredients. if you don't get the ratios right, it's not protandim and it may not work the same at all. then again it might, but i don't think so. there is only a very slight difference between biscuit gravy and wall paper paste. i found this out a long time ago.

Your point about ashwagandha is incorrect. While Protandim includes bacopa extract and milk thistle extract, the green tea, turmeric and ashwagandha are bulk, unprocessed herbs. Turmeric has an extremely low bioavailability, and since it is not standardized for curcumin content, I doubt you are receiving any benefit from it. I refer you to this thread: Another thread about Protandim's crappiness

dantecubit

i understand what you are trying to say, but lets pretend you mean it for a second. first of all, your "proprietary blend" doesn't claim to reduce os, so it's not really what i'm looking for. if, however, you did make this claim i would then compare it to protandim.

protandim made by a world renowned microbiologist

your "proprietary blend" made by ?

protandim studied by a reputable institution, the university
of Colorado

your "proprietary blend" studies ?

protandim $50

your "proprietary blend" $80

i'm afraid i still would choose protandim over your "proprietary blend".

True, my product never made claims about oxidative stress. But given what Michael has posted, I am reasonably confident that your OS levels would measure lower at some point in the future after taking my product. You say that "research" supports Protandim. Someone else made the point that the study you refer to was small (13 people) and the participants were also taking other supplements. So: no control, too small an experimental group, and no way to tell that Protandim was the product causing a lessening of OS-- that sounds like a crappy study to me. The supplements that many people take here are supported by research that is far more rigorous than this.

Regarding your second point, there are plenty of crappy products with big names attached to them. Also, it would be a relatively simple matter for a company to have their product "studied" at a university. The results do not imply that their product is somehow more scientifically validated than another.

You have not answered Scott L's question about whether you work for the company that makes Protandim. There are probably a few of you, spamming web forums with your appeals to ignorance: "until you can prove Protandim doesn't work, you have to assume it does!"

I will lower the price of my proudct to $40 per month. That is 50% off the normal price!

[biknut]

scottl & dantecubit

No, i don't work for protandim. I'm an air conditioning contractor in Dallas Texas. the name of my company is Cool Wave A/C. I'm listed in the phone book for over 20 yrs. It is true however that i am ignorant, but even so i wish for good health.

Edited by biknut, 30 January 2006 - 04:58 PM.

[Pablo M]

scottl & dantecubit
no, i don't work for protandim. i'm an air conditioning contractor in dallas texas. the name of my company is cool wave a/c. i'm listed in the phone book for over 20 yrs. it is true however that i am ignorant, but even so i wish for good health.

the fact that only 13 people were in the study doesn't automatically mean that protandim doesn't work. also even if the 13 people were taking all kinds of supplements that still doesn't matter because there are no known supplements that will reduce os to that of a 20 year old, so if the 13 people in fact did reduce os to that of a 20 year old then it would have to be the protandim that did it.

  michael
man i'm so dumb i'm not even sure if what you're saying supports me or not, but i assume what you're saying is that studies show that reducing os will not help any, and that a tbar test doesn't mean anything. if this is the case, i think i could show you just as many studies that contradict your studies. probably more.

another point to consider is you don't always need a study to tell if a supplement helps. a lot of times just take it and see if it helps. if protandim is as powerful as they say, then a lot of beneficial effects should start showing up. i've been looking at different studies that conclude that reducing os would help this and that. if protandim works then i would expect some of those things to start happening. this is my approach. maybe it will work maybe not. i'm in the process of finding out now. i'm only in the early stages of my study. as more time goes by, i'll let you know how it's going. i usually try a supplement for about a year to decide if it's any good.

Biknut- since you obviously don't know what oxidative stress and TBARs etc are (outside of Protandim ad copy), how can you be so confident that Protandim will have any benefits?

Your approach reminds me of Homer in the bear patrol episode. Lisa has told Homer that a rock she has keeps tigers away:

Homer: How does it work?
Lisa: It doesn't. But I don't see any tigers, do you?
Homer: Lisa, I'd like to buy your rock!

[biknut]

dantecubit

If you listen to Dr McCord's view about what os is and how to detect it, it's very easy to find a great deal of studies on the internet, that don't have anything to do with protandim, that seem to support his view. I know that's not proof protandim works, but it's evidence that it might.

Based on what protandin says, it should take about 4 months to get up to full strength. I haven't even been taking it for quite that long yet. I think it should be pretty easy to tell if it works as advertised because, "one million times more powerful than any other antioxidant" should be easy to tell.

Edited by biknut, 30 January 2006 - 04:55 PM.

[scottl]

Biknut,

What is this "WORKS"? Please define it as you are using it.

"i think it should be pretty easy to tell if it works as advertised because, "one million times more powerful than any other antioxidant"

Please explain how you will do this.

[biknut]

scottl

The protandim webb sight only makes one claim. To reduce os by up regulating sod and cat to levels of a 20 yr old. They don't make any claims that it will do anything else, but i expect if what they say is true, some kind of beneficial effects will show up. Dr McCord seems to think that also. He's being careful not to make any claims he can't prove. He said he hopes future studies will show that protandim will help with diabetes, and cardiovascular disease, as well as extending life.

They claim to be in the process of trying to get completed studies published for peer review now. maybe that will answer a lot of questions for all of us.

Edited by biknut, 30 January 2006 - 04:51 PM.

[Pablo M]

Okay Biknut, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you when you say you have no commercial interest in Protanidm. You just liked it so much, you decided to register on a forum (which doesn't come up until page 11 of a google search for 'protandim') and compose your very first post (indeed, all your posts) about Protandim.

If you truly like Protandim and believe it benefits your health, do yourself a favor and buy the ingredients separately from AOR or LEF. You'll save a bundle and will get more health benefits than those Protandim might have.

Oh and BTW, welcome to the Immortality Institute.

[scottl]

If you truly like Protandim and believe it benefits your health, do yourself a favor and buy the ingredients separately from AOR or LEF. You'll save a bundle and will get more health benefits than those Protandim might have.

Agreed. But it sounds unlikely he will do that.

Ashwagandha is probably responsible for the improved sleep.

[biknut]

earler in this thead i saw a post that said no mouse study showed promise for life extension except cr.

here is recent mouse study where it was demonstrated that mice had longer lives because of catalase. this study doesn't have anything to do with protandim, but protandin is claimed to increase catalase.

then of coarse there is protandim's study.


Modified mice enjoy one-fifth more life
19:00 05 May 2005
NewScientist.com news service
Rowan Hooper
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Contact us
Web Links
Peter Rabinovitch's group
Mitochondrial Gene Expression and Disease Group, Finland
The Buck Institute - Advancing Ageing Research
A mouse with the ability to mop up free radicals at the cellular level - and live longer as a result - has been created by scientists.

The research is a boost for the free radical theory of ageing. This proposes that reactive oxygen species damage cells and tissues, leading to declining health and, eventually, death.

“We hope that in future years, this knowledge can be applied to deliver similar benefits to humans,” says lead researcher Peter Rabinovitch, a pathologist working on ageing at the University of Washington, Seattle, US.

The results may also encourage those on the fringes of mainstream research who long for immortality.

The transgenic mice Rabinovitch’s team created produce higher-than-normal levels of the antioxidant enzyme catalase. Cells use catalase to convert damaging hydrogen peroxide to harmless water and molecular oxygen, but the enzyme is usually found only in the cytoplasm of cells.

His team made mice that produce high levels of catalase in their mitochondria, the powerhouses of cells. They found that cellular damage, as well as age-related damage in the heart, decreased in comparison to control mice that produced catalase in just cytoplasm or in cell nuclei. The lifespan of the mitochondria-catalase mice was extended by more than five months - an increase of around 20%.

Damaging cycle
Judith Campisi, who works on ageing at the Buck Institute in California, US, notes: “The theory is that inefficient mitochondria produce more reactive oxygen species, which in turn damage the mitochondria, making them more inefficient, and the cycle goes on,” she says.

However, Rabinovitch rules out genetically modifying humans to do the same thing. More likely are drugs to mimic or increase catalase activity in human mitochondria. “Eventually we hope that insights from this work can be used to help develop pharmacological interventions that will help extend the healthy life span of humans,” he says.

There is much evidence that a diet rich in green vegetables - high in antioxidants - is beneficial for health, but there is currently little data to support a beneficial effect of “antioxidant pills”. Rabinovitch says that the new work demonstrates the promise of an enzyme-based antioxidant, which could be given as a pill, if the enzymes can then find their way into the mitochondria.

Campisi is cautiously optimistic that the mouse work will lead to longer life-spans in humans, too. “But it is important to remember that, just as mice are more complicated than flies or nematodes, humans are more complicated than mice. So time will tell,” she says.

Howard Jacobs, a geneticist at the University of Tampere, Finland, also sounds a warning note. “Lifespan extension may carry other costs that are not immediately obvious, quite apart from considering ethical and societal issues,” he says. “Having said this, the finding is provocative, and certainly accords with our work showing that loss of mitochondrial genome integrity provokes an acceleration in mouse ageing.”

Journal reference: Science (DOI 10.1126/science.1106653)

[biknut]

Hey i didn't know this but after i made the previous post i looked at the protandim webb sight and found that they make reference to this study as support for protandim. Looks like Dr McCord might know a little about what he's talking about after all. www.protandim.com

Edited by biknut, 30 January 2006 - 04:47 PM.

[biknut]

"Okay Biknut, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you when you say you have no commercial interest in Protanidm. You just liked it so much, you decided to register on a forum (which doesn't come up until page 11 of a google search for 'protandim') and compose your very first post (indeed, all your posts) about Protandim."

gee that's really big of you dantecubit. thanks very little.

Edited by biknut, 30 January 2006 - 04:45 PM.

[Michael]

All:

biknut:  i assume what you're saying is that studies show that reducing os will not help any,  and that a tbar test doesn't mean anything. if this is the case, i think i could show you just as many studies that contradict your studies. probably more.

Then please do so. But do so using studies in normal, healthy organisms, and not genetic fuckups, people with advanced diseases, animals shot up with enormous doses of toxic chemicals, or cells in a test tube.

I think that you will find your attempt to dig up such studies illuminating.

biknut: earler in this thead i saw a post that said no mouse study showed promise for life extension except cr.

here is recent mouse study where it was demonstrated that mice had longer lives because of catalase. this study doesn't have anything to do with protandim, but protandin is claimed to increase catalase.

I believe that you are thinking of this post. What I said in that post was that "CR [is] the only intervention currently available tht retards aging in mammals (with the probable exceptions of pituitary hormone blockage (Ames & Snell dwarf mice) and the overexpression of mitochondrially-targetted catalase. The study (1) summarized in the news story that you cite is on the latter.

Because teh control group in this study was somewhat short-lived, the intervention group's lifespan was not really long enough, nor the effects on age-related functional loss widespread enough, to be absolutely confident that even this intervention is genuinely effective against aging, however.

biknut: then of coarse there is protandim's study.

We have no lifespan study published for protandim as yet.

-Michael

1: Schriner SE, Linford NJ, Martin GM, Treuting P, Ogburn CE, Emond M, Coskun PE, Ladiges W, Wolf N, Van Remmen H, Wallace DC, Rabinovitch PS.
Extension of murine life span by overexpression of catalase targeted to mitochondria.
Science. 2005 Jun 24;308(5730):1909-11. Epub 2005 May 5.
PMID: 15879174 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[biknut]

"I think that you will find your attempt to dig up such studies illuminating."

Yes i agree, this will be illuminating, for you michael.

As far as tbar tests not being useful, try this. do a google search on

Inhibition of lipid peroxidation (TBARS)

You get about 34,000 hits where they did studies on just about everything you can think of and they used tbar tests to check their findings. I don't think they would have used this type of testing if it was useless.

I'm not sure i really understand what you're trying to say about os. Are you saying reducing os won't help, or that it just can't be done. Did you read the mouse study i posted. I think it offered support to one of the studies you referred to that said if you can reduce os damage to the mitochondria that would be helpful.

Edited by biknut, 30 January 2006 - 04:30 PM.

[scottl]

Edit:

Just read this:

"i think you and scottl are living in a house of straw on the subject of protandim and i'm the big bad wolf."

I think you are fixated on some decent supps put out in some magic propriatary formula and are beyond all reasoning with. Like 99% of all other magic propriatary (sp?) formulas, this one is nothing special--except perhaps to their accountants.

[biknut]

scottl

yea, but i just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance!

[Pablo M]

yea, but i just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance!

Good. You'll need it...

Do a google search for "biknut," everyone. This guy has been all over, relentlessly promoting Protandim. Evidently he believes it may stop hairloss, among other things.

Biknut, if you read the articles referenced earlier in this thread, you will see that antioxidant supplements (even ones that raise endogenous antioxidant enzyme levels) are likely to affect life expectancy but not maximum lifespan. There is a critical difference. I would recommend you read Jay's piece on Protandim. You are merely doing some "curve squaring" here.

No one is saying that raising CAT, SOD and GTH levels won't be beneficial. It very likely will. However, the studies you mention are not applicable to Protandim as they show beneficial results from increasing SOD or CAT levels-- something Protandim has not been shown to do. It is likely Protandim has a slight effect as a result of the bacopa-- much like, for example, drinking one cup of tea per week is better than drinking none. For $50 per month or however much Protandim costs, you could buy bacopa AND deprenyl (which has also been shown to increase the levels of these antioxidant enzymes in the brain) and probably a few other well-studied antiaging compounds as well.

[biknut]

dantecubit

It's true i do blog around to try and let people know that i believe protandim works well. You got a problem with that?

With all due respect, you don't really know what you're talking about.

Edited by biknut, 30 January 2006 - 04:26 PM.