26 replies to this topic

[leonine77]

Hi guys,

I’m an absolute newb and I’ve been experimenting on myself with nootropics.

What do I want from them?

To think with greater clarity, a greater degree of follow through, and help with difficult tasks.



Some background info:

I’m 30, definitely have ADD ( diagnosed way before it became the ‘go-to’ condition), and a host of non-verbal learning disabilities. When I was younger , I took ADD meds, but their nasty side effects (ie extreme anxiouness) far outweighed any of the positives. Paying attention to most anything can be difficult for me, I’m often forgetful, and I vacillate between brilliance and absolute absent mindedness. When it comes to mathematics, reading graphs, etc… It’s as if there is some sort of mental block that impedes and signifigantly slows down my ability to quickly comprehend, and it’s not just that I’m a math-tard (though I am), it’s that I feel I have difficulty processing this sort of info.



I’ve tried a number of nootropics and herbs:

-arctic root, which has helped me with my moods successfully. Still taking this

-Picamilon, which just made me foggy-minded and sleepy. Was taking it in the day, but I know take 100mgs at bedtime. Not sure what if anything it is doing, but I have a bunch left....

-Vinpocetine, which just made me hyped up and edgy and seemed to constrict bloodflow to my extremities( ice cold palms and feet). No longer taking this

-Oxiracetam, which made me foggy minded yet hyped up and aggressive/anxious (probably the worst combo ever!), and was like a very crappy speed minus any pleasuarable sensations. I just stopped this today.

-Phenylpiracetam, which was like amphetamines, but less anxiety. Still, not as helpful as I had hoped. I’m now taking this on an as-needed basis, ie when I have tough tasks and am tired.

-Choline (Source Naturals brand alpha GPC, 600mg twice a day). Not sure what this is doing yet, but as I haven’t had any nasty side-effects, I’m going to continue taking it.



Needless to say, this has been very expensive experimentation.

I think I jumped the gun, by not trying out Piracetam first.



Do Racetams make any of you extremely anxious and scatter brained?

And if so, did you find Piracetam to make you anxious as well? I know it's a racetam, but isn't it supposed to be one of the more mild ones?

Piracetam seems to be less expensive than the other ones, so I’m thinking of buying some of Unique-nutrition’s Piracetam, and giving it a go. If it makes me jumpy, foggy minded and anxious, then that’s it for me and racetams….



Thanks guys, any perspectives that you can offer , or advice etc… are greatly appreciated!

[Rags847]

I find Piracetam (Relentles Improvement's) and CDP-Choline (AOR's) to increase my thinking/processing speed and, at the same time, have a calming/anxiolytic effect (it is a mild GABA agonist). And the enhanced creativity is awesome.
Piracetam at it's best is wonderful.
Just doesn't have that superkick that I imagin ADHD drugs must have.

Edited by Rags847, 15 March 2008 - 04:13 PM.

[meursault]

I find Piracetam (Relentles Improvement's) and CDP-Choline (AOR's) to increase my thinking/processing speed and, at the same time, have a calming/anxiolytic effect (it is a mild GABA agonist). And the enhanced creativity is awesome.
Piracetam at it's best is wonderful.
Just doesn't have that superkick that I imagin ADHD drugs must have.

ADHD drugs limit creativity.

[Rags847]

I find Piracetam (Relentles Improvement's) and CDP-Choline (AOR's) to increase my thinking/processing speed and, at the same time, have a calming/anxiolytic effect (it is a mild GABA agonist). And the enhanced creativity is awesome.
Piracetam at it's best is wonderful.
Just doesn't have that superkick that I imagin ADHD drugs must have.

ADHD drugs limit creativity.

Anton, how common is that side effect from ADHD drugs? Do you have personal experience taking ADHD drugs and finding your creativity decreased?
I'm considering trying ADHD drugs, but one of the sides I'm concerned about is creativity obstruction.
But I really want the increased productivity that ADHD drugs may bring.

Edited by Rags847, 15 March 2008 - 04:25 PM.

[jackinbox]

I have ADHD too (inatentive) and I finally found a cocktail that work for me. Nothing spectacular but good enough to be able to work as a programmer.

In the morning:
Wellbutrin 150mg
Centrophenoxine 250mg or Alpha-GPC 600mg
Piracetam 3500mg

Sometimes, I take another Wellbutrin, 150 mg, at noon if I really need an energy boost. During the day, I take 1500mg piracetam shots if I feel I need to. I usely add 600 mg of Alpha-GPC at the same time.

I still have to experiment to find the proper source of choline. Centrophenoxine is somewhat stimulating and I cannot take more than 250mg a day. Alpha-GPC is much cleaner but I'm not sure yet if it's really a better source of choline (read: mental clarity) than cheaper alternatives.

Sleep is also a very very important point and I'm still working on that. ADDers usely have trooble sleeping because their mind can't stop bouncing all night. I experiment with different stuff (valerian, gaba, etc.).

Exercise should be part of your goal too. My goal is to regulate and improve my sleep in order to wake up at 6 and go to the gym right away every morning before going to work.

[meursault]

Anton, how common is that side effect from ADHD drugs? Do you have personal experience taking ADHD drugs and finding your creativity decreased?
I'm considering trying ADHD drugs, but one of the sides I'm concerned about is creativity obstruction.
But I really want the increased productivity that ADHD drugs may bring.

I had a friend in highschool that was a fantastic musician. He wrote a lot material for different bands and was hard working. After starting to take ADHD medication, his output level plunged. He wasn't using "street drugs" prior to ADHD medication. He himself spoke of how the medication had limited his creative powers.

Googling ADHD and creativity brings up plenty of information.


I tend to talk about this is in many of my most recent posts, but medication and supplements should ALWAYS be secondary to diet, physical exercise, and mental training. Meditation opens up so many more doors to increased focus and concentration. It also gives YOU the power to control it.

[Rags847]

Meditation opens up so many more doors to increased focus and concentration. It also gives YOU the power to control it.

May seem like a basic qt, but what exactly is the difference between meditaion and just relaxing to ambient music or putting on brainwave entrainment audio? Is meditation being very calm and still and focused on one thing (vs letting your mind drift)?
I need to research exactly what meditation is.

[dopamine]

Piracetam seems to be less expensive than the other ones, so I’m thinking of buying some of Unique-nutrition’s Piracetam, and giving it a go. If it makes me jumpy, foggy minded and anxious, then that’s it for me and racetams….

I wouldn't buy from Unique Nutrition; I'd recommend Relentless Improvement if you want relatively "guaranteed" quality, or 1fast400 to buy in bulk. Some of the lack of/negative effects could be attributed to a lack or substitution of ingredients. Shop for quality that can be shown, not just talked up.

Edited by dopamine, 25 March 2008 - 01:41 AM.

[Jacovis]

Meditation opens up so many more doors to increased focus and concentration. It also gives YOU the power to control it.

Anton I would be interested in hearing more about your thoughts on meditation. Perhaps you can start a new thread on your experiences/understanding of it.

Do you think for example Holosync and similar-type products are a good substitute to getting the full benefits from normal meditation?
Even if they aren't a perfect substitute, for people with ADHD who have trouble keeping still for long, would they help?
What are your own favourite 'meditation-type' products and those of others you know?

I am looking specifically for focus/concentration/attention span improvement and reduced distractability. NOT really for other benefits necessarily like: better perception, intelligence increase, better sleep etc...

Thanks in advance man!

[leonine77]

Ah-hah! VERY interesting that meditation has become a sub-topic on this thread....

I've begun meditating (nothing special, just deep abdominal breathing, pausing on the inhale and exhale). I have to do it lying down, as I have some annoying pain issues with my neck and back that make it such that sitting lotus style is too painful.

I definatley have ADD but no longer take amphetamines for it (as they made me verrrry anxious, angry, etc...). I can't take things like wellbutrin or similar serotonin thing-ies for it either, as I have a starnge reaction to it. My mind jumps from topic to topic constantly, and I have found that this happens when I meditate, but from what I understand, this is normal, in that meditation is a long-haul beneficient and most certainly not a quick fix. And anyways, for the most part I always feel more serene after I meditate.

I'm going to high-jack my own thread. I'm considwering purchasing some liquid Deprenyl. It's cheap at the dosage I plan to use (1mg up to 4 times a week), and from what I understand, it's good for all sorts of issues (libido, fatigue, difficulties with attention and cognition).

That said, I am going to eventually give Piracetam a try, but not right now, as my financial situation is such that it is an 'either or' regarding deprenyl and piracetam/choline (and of course when I purchase the Pira, I want to make sure the quality is top-notch, ie Relentless's capsules or a super quality bulk/loose brand).

Edited by leonine77, 27 March 2008 - 02:58 PM.

[leonine77]

Thanks all,

I believe I'm going to purchase some piracetam from BulNutrition and some of their Choline as well, though I'm not sure which one yet.
Also considering purchasing some Deprenyl (liquid), though I'm uncertain as to whether or not this will conflict with Kratom. I take Kratom for some serious chronic pain issues I have, I've read mixed 'reviews' as to whether Kratom and Deprenyl are a nasty combo, but I plan on taking a very low dose of the Deprenyl (ie 1-2 miligrams, 3 times a week).
Sldo going to take some of AOR's magnesium supplements (I've been taking drug store brand, but apparently it's mag oxide or something or other, which iosn't supposed to be all that effective); maybe this will help with my pain.....

Also doing some behavioral changes, ie doing the Lumosity program, sticking with the meditation (even if I question it's efficacy, as I know it can only help long term) and giving Tai-chi a try...

Thanks guys, and I will keep you all posted....

Ah-hah! VERY interesting that meditation has become a sub-topic on this thread....

I've begun meditating (nothing special, just deep abdominal breathing, pausing on the inhale and exhale). I have to do it lying down, as I have some annoying pain issues with my neck and back that make it such that sitting lotus style is too painful.

I definatley have ADD but no longer take amphetamines for it (as they made me verrrry anxious, angry, etc...). I can't take things like wellbutrin or similar serotonin thing-ies for it either, as I have a starnge reaction to it. My mind jumps from topic to topic constantly, and I have found that this happens when I meditate, but from what I understand, this is normal, in that meditation is a long-haul beneficient and most certainly not a quick fix. And anyways, for the most part I always feel more serene after I meditate.

I'm going to high-jack my own thread. I'm considwering purchasing some liquid Deprenyl. It's cheap at the dosage I plan to use (1mg up to 4 times a week), and from what I understand, it's good for all sorts of issues (libido, fatigue, difficulties with attention and cognition).

That said, I am going to eventually give Piracetam a try, but not right now, as my financial situation is such that it is an 'either or' regarding deprenyl and piracetam/choline (and of course when I purchase the Pira, I want to make sure the quality is top-notch, ie Relentless's capsules or a super quality bulk/loose brand).

[Wonder9]

"-Vinpocetine, which just made me hyped up and edgy and seemed to constrict bloodflow to my extremities( ice cold palms and feet). No longer taking this"

Dear Leonine77,

Amazing! Same thing with me and my experiment with vinpocetine during the past 2 weeks. Cold extremities (including the extremity between the legs!!).
My Doc told me it's because vinpo selectively direct more blood to your brain at the expense of other organs if you take to much of it!
All I had to do is reduce the dosage to 5mg a day and everything went back to normal after 48 hours!
So try it back at 2.5-5mg per day, it's well worth it.

[klixu]

Meditation opens up so many more doors to increased focus and concentration. It also gives YOU the power to control it.

Anton I would be interested in hearing more about your thoughts on meditation. Perhaps you can start a new thread on your experiences/understanding of it.

Do you think for example Holosync and similar-type products are a good substitute to getting the full benefits from normal meditation?
Even if they aren't a perfect substitute, for people with ADHD who have trouble keeping still for long, would they help?
What are your own favourite 'meditation-type' products and those of others you know?

I am looking specifically for focus/concentration/attention span improvement and reduced distractability. NOT really for other benefits necessarily like: better perception, intelligence increase, better sleep etc...

Thanks in advance man!

Well, I'll put some small comments in this thread: When it comes to meditation, I suggest putting some time aside to focus solely on that. Personally I went to thailand to wat suanmokkh when I was 20 to pursue this, and while it wasn't a meditation centric place as some buddhists are I developed a daily habit that I partially managed to sustain daily until 2000. Learn to exercise (I picked up yoga) so you can sit comfortably in a half lotus, use pillows. The one I learned is the basic meditation of mindfullness with breathing, it's taught by all buddhist schools (as it was taught by the so-called buddha). Nowadays if faced with a similar choice, I'd go to korea to learn their zen and maybe pick up tae-kwon-do while doing it or karma-kaguy school of the tibetans. Both are hardcore meditation schools.

I quit because of lifestyle changes and later drifting to being a born again atheist/secularist. But I have to admit that I've been tempted to pick it up again with the research coming in on meditation causing physical changes in the brain.

[leonine77]

Wonder,

what have you been expieriencing with vinpocetine at the lower dose you are taking?

Klixu,

It's tough to find a good yoga place near me (right now), but I've begun to take tai chi, but taught by kung fu masters (ie, it can eventually be used for self defense. I saw a teacher hit a punching bag with the outside of his wrist ever so slightly yesterday, and the bag flew!). It will take a while for me to become more flexible, but a good portion of the long term students I spoke with told me that it's seriously helped with muscle tension (and it's taught them patience), and as I'm sure we all know, the more tense our muscles are, the more difficult it is to think in a clear headed manner.

I was taking some yoga classes rtight around the corner, but the teacher sucked, and like all skills your ability to learn correctly and gain benefit really has everything to do with the quality of the instructor.

An update.
I just recieved my piracetam and choline bitartrate (bilk nutrition). I took some today. It made me a bit edgy, but I got shit for sleep last night and I took too much choline accidentally (which is funny, as those sorts of brain fog induced idiot-ry are exactly what I hope the stuff will help me with)

So, i'll keep you all posted.





Thanks guys for continuing to contribute to this thread !!!

[klixu]

I guess tai chi will do the job. I'm not sure of it's capability to stretch the groin area and strengthen the lower back which are needed for sitting. The first few months of sitting will still probably hurt your groin and knees, but just ignore that and you'll soon adapt to the position.

[lojzenov]

Piracetam seems to be less expensive than the other ones, so I'm thinking of buying some of Unique-nutrition's Piracetam, and giving it a go. If it makes me jumpy, foggy minded and anxious, then that's it for me and racetams….

I wouldn't buy from Unique Nutrition; I'd recommend Relentless Improvement if you want relatively "guaranteed" quality, or 1fast400 to buy in bulk. Some of the lack of/negative effects could be attributed to a lack or substitution of ingredients. Shop for quality that can be shown, not just talked up.

Why not unique nutrition? I'm considering from buying bunch of nootropics from them, l-huperzine a, piracetam and Centrophenoxine
Is bulknutrition better? I will probably buy huge quantities, like 2kg piracetam, 500g Centrophenoxine ..

Edited by lojzenov, 06 June 2008 - 11:15 AM.

[dopamine]

Why not unique nutrition? I'm considering from buying bunch of nootropics from them, l-huperzine a, piracetam and Centrophenoxine
Is bulknutrition better? I will probably buy huge quantities, like 2kg piracetam, 500g Centrophenoxine ..

They outright refuse to provide CoA's for their products, while simultaneously claiming that their products are "pharmaceutical grade." Unique Nutrition has 4 employees (according to the BBB) so it's not like quality is a given as it is with larger manufacturers (e.g. NOW Foods). For all we know UN could be a kitchen setup out of an apartment or small office, so I would make sure to get CoA's before buying anything from them (maybe you'll have more luck than others).

Edited by dopamine, 12 June 2008 - 04:14 AM.

[Rags847]

Why not unique nutrition? I'm considering from buying bunch of nootropics from them, l-huperzine a, piracetam and Centrophenoxine
Is bulknutrition better? I will probably buy huge quantities, like 2kg piracetam, 500g Centrophenoxine ..

They outright refuse to provide CoA's for their products, while simultaneously claiming that their products are "pharmaceutical grade." Unique Nutrition has 4 employees (according to the BBB) so it's not like quality is a given as it is with larger manufacturers (e.g. NOW Foods). For all we know UN could be a kitchen setup out of an apartment or small office, so I would make sure to get CoA's before buying anything from them (maybe you'll have more luck than others).

How does Relentless Improvement (Piracetam) and AOR (CDP-Choline) measure up? That is what I use. Do they provide CoA's, etc?

[dopamine]

Why not unique nutrition? I'm considering from buying bunch of nootropics from them, l-huperzine a, piracetam and Centrophenoxine
Is bulknutrition better? I will probably buy huge quantities, like 2kg piracetam, 500g Centrophenoxine ..

They outright refuse to provide CoA's for their products, while simultaneously claiming that their products are "pharmaceutical grade." Unique Nutrition has 4 employees (according to the BBB) so it's not like quality is a given as it is with larger manufacturers (e.g. NOW Foods). For all we know UN could be a kitchen setup out of an apartment or small office, so I would make sure to get CoA's before buying anything from them (maybe you'll have more luck than others).

How does Relentless Improvement (Piracetam) and AOR (CDP-Choline) measure up? That is what I use. Do they provide CoA's, etc?

Relentless (last time I checked) provided CoAs for most products (including piracetam). Not sure about AOR.

[jCole]

Correct dosing on Piracetam + Choline was massively important for me in order to achieve positive results.

Took me a few months of playing around with doses before I found my niche.


Aniracetam did absolutely nothing for me.

Edited by jCole, 01 August 2008 - 05:25 PM.

[Wedrifid]

Anton, how common is that side effect from ADHD drugs? Do you have personal experience taking ADHD drugs and finding your creativity decreased?
I'm considering trying ADHD drugs, but one of the sides I'm concerned about is creativity obstruction.
But I really want the increased productivity that ADHD drugs may bring.

Stimulants tend to decrease creativity. If your brain is running flat out towards a goal it is less likely to stop and look at butterflies and wonder where rainbows came from. It is not so much of a 'side effective of creativity obstruction' so much as it simply the effect. The trade off of more focus. In many cases more net creative output can occur, because it allows the executive function to harness the overabundance of creativity somewhat more effectively. Just think "coffee * 5" and you'll be on the right track.

[NootropicEU]

I doubt about Piracetam effectiveness. I don't feel any effect when taking regular doses 1-3 grams a day. Higher doses usually make me irritable and "foggy" and choline does not help.
It does not improve my memory or concentration at all.

I only take Piracetam if I am planning to have a party. It reduces alcohol hangovers, headaches It is probably only useful for people with neurological conditions, alcoholics... I was not able to find any reasonable research results showing that piracetam can increase cognitive performance in healthy individuals. The best nootropic is daily exercise , regular sleep patterns and good diet

[Imagination]

Shouldn't experience anxiety at all with piracetam, if anything it's relaxing. I get anxiety from choline, i have seen others mention this too, i've found though taking choline and inositol taken together works well with out the anxiety. Also keep the dosages pretty low.

Tyrosine is also a good supplement for focus.

Try some theanine for the anxiety.

[Brainenhancement]

Right on!

It took me a few months as well to get the good dose...

now it's 1.5 g in the mornin and 2g before work
for 2 months, then I take a month off

I take alpha-GPC among other things as well

[irishmonkey1992]

Correct dosing on Piracetam + Choline was massively important for me in order to achieve positive results.

Took me a few months of playing around with doses before I found my niche.


Aniracetam did absolutely nothing for me.

What is you're perfect dosage of Piracetam + Choline? I might try it myself when I receive my delivery (First timer)

[kikai93]

Correct dosing on Piracetam + Choline was massively important for me in order to achieve positive results.

Took me a few months of playing around with doses before I found my niche.


Aniracetam did absolutely nothing for me.

What is you're perfect dosage of Piracetam + Choline? I might try it myself when I receive my delivery (First timer)

Why would you immediately adopt a dose tailored to someone else's bodyweight and chemistry? Start low (800mg bid or tid). Experiment incrementally. Racetams tend to have a middle dose that is most effective for an individual. Neither less nor MOAR is necessarily better.

[^ risetolower v]

Why would you immediately adopt a dose tailored to someone else's bodyweight and chemistry? Start low (800mg bid or tid). Experiment incrementally. Racetams tend to have a middle dose that is most effective for an individual. Neither less nor MOAR is necessarily better.

In my experience, taking high doses of piracetam with high doses of fish oil gave me very positive effects like increased sleep quality, increased libido, increased motivation, but taking high doses of piracetam alone gave me very negative, even opposite effects like apathy, decreased sleep quality, decreased libido, and reduced motivation. I'm not sure why that is though.

Edited by ^ risetolower v, 16 January 2011 - 07:11 PM.