19 replies to this topic

[Rags847]

Which ADHD drug best dovetails with life extension goals? Which is the least detrimental to the brain?

I have a first appointment with a psychiatrist on Wednesday to obtain ADHD drugs. What I am trying to research and decide upon is the question of which one should I try first: Adderall, Ritilan, etc?

I've tried Nootropics (Piracetam and Cdp-Choline, mainly) with good results in some areas (thought creation and processing speed, creativity, etc). But I want/need the robust strength of the ADHD drugs for supreme motivation (especially) and intense and prolonged focus. Too many unfinished projects in my life and I'm returning to school in the Fall and need to function at a super high level in a very competitive program. I've tried everything else (and I do mean everything) and will continue to do everything to increase my functioning in numerous ways (sleep, nutrition, exercise, supplements, etc), but I'm finally ready to give these meds a shot. So, basically, I want to balance my goals of enhancing myself (this is my one and only life to succeed in) and extending my life (this is my one and only life to extend as long and as healthfully as possible).

Does anyone have any scientific knowledge or theories or conjectures relating to this question? Besides evaluating these drugs on immediate effectiveness and side effect tolerability, and taking them at low, therapeutic doses, which one would seem the least detrimental to brain structures if taken long term. After all, each drug does have a different chemical composition and effect on the brain.

Any information or links to good articles on this matter would be appreciated and probably of interest to more people that just me.
Thanks. Live Well And Long!

Edited by Rags847, 18 March 2008 - 12:27 AM.

[edward]

Which ADHD drug best dovetails with life extension goals? Which is the least detrimental to the brain?

I have a first appointment with a psychiatrist on Wednesday to obtain ADHD drugs. What I am trying to research and decide upon is the question of which one should I try first: Adderall, Ritilan, etc?

I've tried Nootropics (Piracetam and Cdp-Choline, mainly) with good results in some areas (thought creation and processing speed, creativity, etc). But I want/need the robust strength of the ADHD drugs for supreme motivation (especially) and intense and prolonged focus. Too many unfinished projects in my life and I'm returning to school in the Fall and need to function at a super high level in a very competitive program. I've tried everything else (and I do mean everything) and will continue to do everything to increase my functioning in numerous ways (sleep, nutrition, exercise, supplements, etc), but I'm finally ready to give these meds a shot. So, basically, I want to balance my goals of enhancing myself (this is my one and only life to succeed in) and extending my life (this is my one and only life to extend as long and as healthfully as possible).

Does anyone have any scientific knowledge or theories or conjectures relating to this question? Besides evaluating these drugs on immediate effectiveness and side effect tolerability, and taking them at low, therapeutic doses, which one would seem the least detrimental to brain structures if taken long term. After all, each drug does have a different chemical composition and effect on the brain.

Any information or links to good articles on this matter would be appreciated and probably of interest to more people that just me.
Thanks. Live Well And Long!

As far as I can tell Modafinil stacks up real well to Adderall in terms of increase in focus and ability to get things done. Though the lat I checked its not officially being used for ADD yet, I am sure many Doctors will give it to you if you say something like well I ordered some of this stuff online just to see, and wow it really helped my add. So I was thinking I should get a legitamate prescription then if you have a copay you can just mosey on down to your local drugstore and pick up a bottle for a 15-20 copay or whatever you have

(I currently take low dose Modafinil, I have taken Adderall, my motivation to take these are not that I have full fledged ADD but that I wanted to increase my ability to concentrate. Both drugs will do it. Adderall was a little more fun, definite drug like feeling compared to Modafinil. Apparently studies show that Modafinil enhances cognition in more relevant areas than does Modafinil. I have found it to work very well with few side effects and yes I has been shown to have neuroprotective effects unlike Adderall

Edited by edward, 18 March 2008 - 02:47 AM.

[Rags847]

As far as I can tell Modafinil stacks up real well to Adderall in terms of increase in focus and ability to get things done. Though the lat I checked its not officially being used for ADD yet, I am sure many Doctors will give it to you if you say something like well I ordered some of this stuff online just to see, and wow it really helped my add. So I was thinking I should get a legitamate prescription then if you have a copay you can just mosey on down to your local drugstore and pick up a bottle for a 15-20 copay or whatever you have

(I currently take low dose Modafinil, I have taken Adderall, my motivation to take these are not that I have full fledged ADD but that I wanted to increase my ability to concentrate. Both drugs will do it. Adderall was a little more fun, definite drug like feeling compared to Modafinil. Apparently studies show that Modafinil enhances cognition in more relevant areas than does Modafinil. I have found it to work very well with few side effects and yes I has been shown to have neuroprotective effects unlike Adderall

Thanks, Edward. Anything else come to mind when you compare your experience on Adderall to Modafinil (other noted effects and side effects)? Was Adderall more motivating?
And any knowledge on which is "rougher" on the brain (long term effects dangers), Ritalin or Adderall?

Edited by Rags847, 18 March 2008 - 04:33 AM.

[Jacovis]

I would have to agree that Modafinil looks much safer than Adderall or Ritalin which may be neurotoxic.

From my own experience and reading though I don't think its really effective for actually focusing on a specific task that needs to be done. Rather, Modafinil seems to promote wakefulness and a hyperfocus on things even if they are on TANGENTS to what NEEDS to be done (a real problem in ADHD of course). I can dig up some posts from others somewhere who had similar experiences with Modafinil. Still if Modafinil works for you then by all means keep on using it!

I have never tried Adderall or Ritalin but from my reading they may be better to make one focus and get through what NEEDS to be done. They have their other issues of course. Anyway that's my understanding. Not to go too offtopic but I would be interested in hearing others' comparisons of Modafinil vs Adderall vs Ritalin.

In my opinion if someone with ADHD needs a wakefulness promoting agent like Modafinil, sleep issues need to be looked at (at least some sleep issues are very common in ADHD-type symptoms). A sleep study should be done and appropriate treatment given (like CPAP, surgery or a Mandibular Advancement Device fitted) if there is even minor sleep breathing problems/eeg arousals in the night. Otherwise you are not going after the root of the problem and other problems associated with even mild sleep problems will continue even if daytime wakefulness is under control...

[edward]

As far as I can tell Modafinil stacks up real well to Adderall in terms of increase in focus and ability to get things done. Though the lat I checked its not officially being used for ADD yet, I am sure many Doctors will give it to you if you say something like well I ordered some of this stuff online just to see, and wow it really helped my add. So I was thinking I should get a legitamate prescription then if you have a copay you can just mosey on down to your local drugstore and pick up a bottle for a 15-20 copay or whatever you have

(I currently take low dose Modafinil, I have taken Adderall, my motivation to take these are not that I have full fledged ADD but that I wanted to increase my ability to concentrate. Both drugs will do it. Adderall was a little more fun, definite drug like feeling compared to Modafinil. Apparently studies show that Modafinil enhances cognition in more relevant areas than does Modafinil. I have found it to work very well with few side effects and yes I has been shown to have neuroprotective effects unlike Adderall

Thanks, Edward. Anything else come to mind when you compare your experience on Adderall to Modafinil (other noted effects and side effects)? Was Adderall more motivating?
And any knowledge on which is "rougher" on the brain (long term effects dangers), Ritalin or Adderall?

First off, someone should move this to the nootropics section...

With regards to Adderall vs. Ritalin. Personally I found Adderall much better than Ritalin at facilitating concentration and there were also fewer side effects. Ritalin increased my anxiety and decreased my mood where as Adderall was pretty neutral on my anxiety and boosted my mood. Again I think that low dose Modafinil is better all around for cognitive enhancement and possibly neuroprotection. I have noticed as someone mentioned above that higher doses of Modafinil do have the tendency to make one go on tangents, very focused tangents but tangents nonetheless, so perhaps Adderall may have some advantages if one finds low dose Modafinil not helpful, ie if one feels the need to raise the dose of modafinill, which in my opinion is counterproductive, then Adderall might be a better option?

note: Most of the alarming studies that i have seen on stimulants and brain toxicity have been done with "stimulant abusers" or rats that become addicted to high doses of stimulants and theses studies show very bad things that occur to the brain. The doses in these studies are way beyond the smaller doses used for ADHD and cognitive improvement.....

However I did find this study of repeated low dose amphetamine causing problems:
http://www.nature.co...l/1395233a.html

I did find this interesting study that showed that Amphetamines improved the recovery of stroke patients possibly leading to new brain connections and positive structural changes:
http://www.newscient...ors-speech.html

Apparently these doctors regularly use amphetamines to help stroke patients, they also note no problems with blood pressure and other cardiovascular issues:
http://stroke.ahajou...ull/31/7/1785-d

Edited by edward, 18 March 2008 - 09:25 PM.

[lynx]

EMSAM--deprenyl patch

[jackinbox]

Consider Wellbutrin.

[mentatpsi]

At this current point in time i'm taking Adderall XR. It is really a propellant to do homework or whatever else meets my fancy. I had noticed that the regular IR versions of Adderall are not quite as effective. There's a consistency with which the XR version brings that the Instant Release can't touch. Even upon returning to consciousness without adderall, i don't feel I have changed, there is no come down for me. It is great for extensive time wasting in repetitive tasks which is synonymous with homework/school/work, it even feels as though work is a requirement. It will put you in the mind set (at least it does for me) that non observable progress doesn't quite cut it.

I will make a warning however, be wary of other stimulants with it... be it ginseng or coffee. I have found myself experiencing shortness of breath, upon a discontinuation of supplementing coffee alongside made vanish. Make sure to be responsible in all your actions. I don't like adderall, nor ritalin from a health standpoint, if you believe that it will increase life i think there is more possibility for the opposite. I say this on assumption and some may argue, but it's what i've experienced with it. I do often take pauses from it, I really feel that my body deserves a break from it often, i just hope there isn't a backlash in this method.

Deprenyl however is being researched for ADHD purposes. It was found to be as effective as ritalin (if my memory serves me), and also showed prospects in life extension. I will say that it is unlikely that you will find someone prescribing you Deprenyl for ADHD.

Hydergine is another interesting nootropic that really made me feel centered and attentive. Thoughts were more fluidic, but it had a strong euphoric feel to it on initial consumption, most likely due to a reaction with the Piracetam. I cannot say how much of those experiences were subjective/placebo, but overall it was a wonder drug. Risk of fibrosis scarred me away from it. I really did feel it took me to another level. Where Adderall lacks soul, Hydergine enriches daily experience.

When it comes to ADHD treatment, most psychiatrists are rather conservative. Another issue is getting your health care to insure whatever alternative route your doctor may advise for you. Modafinal won't be prescribed to you, or at least insured, unless you have tried various other mainstream methods and they have failed.

Just as a precaution, if you're going to combine anything with these drugs, i do recommend that you speak with your doctor first. I would hope that they would enjoy that other's are taking interests in their domain of interest.

Best of luck

[flatline]

FYI: Self-medication is a form of noncompliance, and noncompliance is probably the biggest problem that psychiatrists have with their patients. More often, this noncompliance is in the form of patients not taking their medications consistently, at all, or properly, but self-medication is also a major issue.

You're going to have to curtail any self-medication while you're under the care of a psychiatrist. The job of evaluating medicine efficacy is hard enough without confounding factors, and dangerous interactions.

[Lurker]

imo, the anti-depressent route (Bupropion, selegine patch, etc) for health.

The amphetamine/meth (ritalin, adderal, etc) route has alot of negative evidence stacked against it, but success rates are higher, and improvement is immediete. If you have a history of substance use, addiction, or drug seeking behavior, consider telling your doctor about it and see what his decision is. There is no doubt, that this is the most popular form of treatment for ADHD, and also the most prone for abuse.

Modafinil appears to be alot less abusable then these stimulants, but it's purely an off label treatment.

Edited by Lurker, 30 April 2008 - 11:49 PM.

[mentatpsi]

FYI: Self-medication is a form of noncompliance, and noncompliance is probably the biggest problem that psychiatrists have with their patients. More often, this noncompliance is in the form of patients not taking their medications consistently, at all, or properly, but self-medication is also a major issue.

You're going to have to curtail any self-medication while you're under the care of a psychiatrist. The job of evaluating medicine efficacy is hard enough without confounding factors, and dangerous interactions.

The moment a doctor can prescribe you an amphetamine, or can over prescribe you medications without the knowledge of reactions within a period of 20 years, the issue goes outside the bounds of health and into a domain where you should be the one medicating yourself with the guidance of the doctor, not the other way around.

Medical doctors are not sages, they are human, and should be treated as such; watched carefully and examined just as you would a car dealer. With that being said, why should anyone take an amphetamine every day of the year. Do you not find that to be unwise; appetite suppression to the extent of malnutrition, problems breathing, increased heart rate, avoiding people, repetitive labor without much thought as to whether it's necessary? I do not place faith on any doctor i go to (does he take adderall or does he know from a book), just because he has an education higher than my own doesn't mean he is a god. We don't live in a ideal world, and bureaucracy often comes into play and is placed over the health of patients, and i will not sit around while my health is jeopardized so some massive pharmaceutical company can make an extra thousand a year, or whatever profit.

I understand you wisdom, it's much the same as you would approach a mathematics problem, you want as little unknowns as possible, and in this sense i believe in being open with your doctor, but i also believe a doctor should be open to the methods of his patients and only intervene if they are truly risking their health, he should be a source of knowledge rather than the orator of destiny...

[graatch]

The amphetamine/meth (ritalin, adderal, etc) route has alot of negative evidence stacked against it, but success rates are higher, and improvement is immediete. If you have a history of substance use, addiction, or drug seeking behavior, consider telling your doctor about it and see what his decision is. There is no doubt, that this is the most popular form of treatment for ADHD, and also the most prone for abuse.

Of course, successful psychostimulant treatment in ADD/ADHD was found to strongly REDUCE the likelihood of substance abuse occurring, which does not surprise me in the slightest.

[graatch]

p.s. I strongly agree with mysticpsi's post right above.

[Rags847]

p.s. I strongly agree with mysticpsi's post right above.

I agree too. I am in charge of whatever I put into my body. My Dr. is my hired consultant - nothing more.
I disagree with the amphetamine side effects description. After a few weeks on Dextroamphetamine (switched to after Adderall) the only side is a mild dehydration. The appetite suppression is mild and managable (and maybe even helpful if I want to try a type of caloric restriction diet, someday) and with the gentle dopamine uplift it only makes me more social, not less, and I experience no compulsive behaviors, either, under its influence.

[FunkOdyssey]

Medical doctors are not sages, they are human, and should be treated as such; watched carefully and examined just as you would a car dealer. With that being said, why should anyone take an amphetamine every day of the year. Do you not find that to be unwise; appetite suppression to the extent of malnutrition, problems breathing, increased heart rate, avoiding people, repetitive labor without much thought as to whether it's necessary? I do not place faith on any doctor i go to (does he take adderall or does he know from a book), just because he has an education higher than my own doesn't mean he is a god. We don't live in a ideal world, and bureaucracy often comes into play and is placed over the health of patients, and i will not sit around while my health is jeopardized so some massive pharmaceutical company can make an extra thousand a year, or whatever profit.

I understand you wisdom, it's much the same as you would approach a mathematics problem, you want as little unknowns as possible, and in this sense i believe in being open with your doctor, but i also believe a doctor should be open to the methods of his patients and only intervene if they are truly risking their health, he should be a source of knowledge rather than the orator of destiny...

Absolutely agree. Doctors have a broad education and valuable clinical experience, but any intelligent person can make it a point to research a narrow area to the hilt and learn more about a particular thing (for example, the impact of tryptophan metabolism on autoimmune disease) than your doctor will ever know. And as it turns out, people who are actually afflicted with a problem are more motivated to solve it than a third party who is paid by the hour simply for being involved.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 01 May 2008 - 10:13 PM.

[mentatpsi]

I'm glad people agree with me on this, i was somewhat afraid people were following medical doctors like gods, not realizing that sometimes they're just giving you an addiction to a substance you may not need. I see the whole pharmaceutical industry as merely providing an ability to function within our society. Sometimes the individual is just not properly adapted to the society, it doesn't necessarily mean he requires medication, it just means they need more time to figure certain things out, unfortunately economic reasons hinder wisdom, and a quick solution is often valued over a gradual one.

Examples include; Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, Neurofeedback, Biofeedback, Eastern Medicine, Exercise, and Meditation.

Rags847:
You'll have to excuse me with the amphetamine side effect description, I've listed some common side effects, as well as my own; antisocial tendencies (even though technically it is inaccurately used) is a side effect i myself have with my occasional application of adderall and i have to force myself to talk to people during it, at times i prefer just to be spending hours programming... it mainly increases behaviors which offer rewards...
As far as life extension through caloric restriction via amphetamines, i think a careful study would be necessary to prove that. Congratulations on finding a medication that is working for you .


Going to the issue of Life Extension & ADHD Drugs in general, i think chronic usage of amphetamines may give rise to heart problems later on in life if not properly observed. Weren't there also issues of neurotoxicity regarding amphetamines (not including methamphetamines)?

Edited by mysticpsi, 04 May 2008 - 07:02 AM.

[luv2increase]

I've been taking generic ultram (tramadol hydrochloride) daily with honestly insane results! It completely took away all ADD inattentive-type symptoms! Of course I do take cyprenil, piracetam, centrophenoxine, alcar, and ala with a host of other supps and vitamins, but the EXTREME motivation was ultimately induced with the tramadol.

Now, I don't want anyone to jump the gun and start taking this stuff. It is extremely addicting and some say the withdrawal is worse than that of heroin! It is a prescription pain-killer btw. It works well for reducing my lower back pain though. I take anywhere from 300mg to 400mg daily for the past 2 weeks.

Edited by luv2increase, 03 May 2008 - 10:55 PM.

[Ghostrider]

I've been taking generic ultram (tramadol hydrochloride) daily with honestly insane results! It completely took away all ADD inattentive-type symptoms! Of course I do take cyprenil, piracetam, centrophenoxine, alcar, and ala with a host of other supps and vitamins, but the EXTREME motivation was ultimately induced with the tramadol.

Now, I don't want anyone to jump the gun and start taking this stuff. It is extremely addicting and some say the withdrawal is worse than that of heroin! It is a prescription pain-killer btw. It works well for reducing my lower back pain though. I take anywhere from 300mg to 400mg daily for the past 2 weeks.

I don't know if it would be a good idea to experiment with that substance -- despite the short-term benefits, seems like an obvious dead-end. The only time I would consider using it is before exams or something that is time-critical. Daily use seems risky, right?

[medievil]

I've been taking generic ultram (tramadol hydrochloride) daily with honestly insane results! It completely took away all ADD inattentive-type symptoms! Of course I do take cyprenil, piracetam, centrophenoxine, alcar, and ala with a host of other supps and vitamins, but the EXTREME motivation was ultimately induced with the tramadol.

Now, I don't want anyone to jump the gun and start taking this stuff. It is extremely addicting and some say the withdrawal is worse than that of heroin! It is a prescription pain-killer btw. It works well for reducing my lower back pain though. I take anywhere from 300mg to 400mg daily for the past 2 weeks.

I don't know if it would be a good idea to experiment with that substance -- despite the short-term benefits, seems like an obvious dead-end. The only time I would consider using it is before exams or something that is time-critical. Daily use seems risky, right?

DXM has been proven to block tolerance to opiates, might be a good idea to throw that one in, i'm gonna try ultram myself too

[graatch]

speaking of NMDA antagonists, I may soon get to try memantine in combination with a psychostimulant (probably methylphenidate), this in an attempt to halt the rapid tolerance to the ... antianhedonic, mood-boosting, drive-increasing, motivational, prosocial effects (likely limbic dopaminergic activity) which develop rapid tolerance for me, leaving an increase in willpower (probably prefrontal stimulation, which has a lot of evidence of actually sensitizing) but if anything a clamping down on the aforementioned initial effects ... a sort of deadening, and worries of being robotic.

I feel that these initial effets are actually considerably more therapeutic for my inattention.

Limbic dopamine is a hard beast to hold down, but some people have gotten EXCELLENT, long-lasting results from this. I hope to report the same. I'll follow up with my initial experiences in probably a week or so.

Edited by graatch, 09 May 2008 - 11:23 AM.