21 replies to this topic

[A941]

If we would be able to replace Organs would this help to prevent Death for a while or longer?

[forever freedom]

I'm kind of a layman in biology, but i think it would. People wouldn't die from heart attacks, cirrhosis, just to name the firsts that come to my mind now.


As for general life extension, i think it would help a great deal too, because it would give us new vitality and general health.

[Ghostrider]

Works for everything except for the brain.

[forever freedom]

So my question goes to someone that knows a good deal about biology: if we could replace every single organ inside our bodies except for the brain, how long could the brain (and consequently, us) survive? If we take supplementaions and do exercises to get our brains as healthy as possible, how long could the brain be sustained on average?

[Athanasios]

A paper by bgwowk talked about this and how cryopreservation could play a huge role. I think kidneys were specifically highlighted. By using the search function, I am sure it could be pulled up.

[Ghostrider]

So my question goes to someone that knows a good deal about biology: if we could replace every single organ inside our bodies except for the brain, how long could the brain (and consequently, us) survive? If we take supplementaions and do exercises to get our brains as healthy as possible, how long could the brain be sustained on average?

I think that highly depends on the person, genetics. Some people get Alzheimer's in their 50s and die in the 60s with otherwise healthy bodies. Some people stay mentally sharp until their bodies go out. If it were only the mind that determined life expectancy, there would be a much larger standard deviation associated with the average lifespan.

Edited by Ghostrider, 22 March 2008 - 11:22 PM.

[forever freedom]

So my question goes to someone that knows a good deal about biology: if we could replace every single organ inside our bodies except for the brain, how long could the brain (and consequently, us) survive? If we take supplementaions and do exercises to get our brains as healthy as possible, how long could the brain be sustained on average?

I think that highly depends on the person, genetics. Some people get Alzheimer's in their 50s and die in the 60s with otherwise healthy bodies. Some people stay mentally sharp until their bodies go out. If it were only the mind that determined life expectancy, there would be a much larger standard deviation associated with the average lifespan.

Would it be possible for a brain to endure for more than 150 years?

[solbanger]

I'm kind of a layman in biology, but i think it would. People wouldn't die from heart attacks, cirrhosis, just to name the firsts that come to my mind now.


As for general life extension, i think it would help a great deal too, because it would give us new vitality and general health.

Withstanding old age is not as simple as just replacing organs. Not to mention the immense amount of scar tissue involved in replacing EACH organ, which would mean everything from the eyes, to the heart all the way down to the *gulp* prostrate, organ replacement is typically for individual pieces that have been monitored over time like cirrhosis or kidney failure. Organ replacement is last resort maintenance. Heart attacks would still occur and people will still die from them because it is circulatory system inflammation that causes the blockages. It is a whole body disease of which the heart is the centerpiece. Even with a new teenage heart you would still have yards of plaque filled arteries for it to contend with. Do you think it's feasible to replace the entire bad plumbing of your circulatory system? No of course not, it's much better to repair it somehow hopefully with oncoming adult stem cell therapies.

Also unless we have the money to keep spare hearts on reserve in medical centers close by how would they generate a heart in time to replace one failing from cardiac arrest? Many heart attacks are spontaneous, like the John Ritter case, and a lot of people die from heart attacks simply because they are not realizing they are having one! Also it will be years until researchers perfect built-to-spec organ regeneration. Take a look at teeth, you would think that it would be simple to foster stem cells to grow back old wisdom teeth in your jaw. But even for a simple tooth researchers face huge dangers when using stem cells including cancer propagation, the displacement of adjoining teeth, and even having the wrong type of tooth begin growing in place.

Organ replacement is an amazing new science but I just wanted to put its uses in perspective.

Edited by solbanger, 23 March 2008 - 01:24 AM.

[forever freedom]

Solbanger, i agree. Organ replacement although may give us some health fixes will not be the ultimate cause of the onset of some extreme life extension therapies.

Edited by sam988, 23 March 2008 - 02:20 AM.

[A941]

Will stemcell therapies be able to rejuvenate our arteries?
How far are researchers today?

[A941]

I talked about rejuvenation not replacement!

[niner]

I talked about rejuvenation not replacement!

I donno, I would think such a thing would do little to solve atherosclerosis.

But that's exactly what rejuvenation of blood vessels is all about. You have to get rid of the junk built up on the inner wall, and you need to repair damage to the wall itself. Nano-bots are the frequently mentioned fantastical approach for cleaning up junk, but I suspect a chemical approach will be more likely. Stem cells will probably be involved in the repair of the wall, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to really comment on the state of research.

[Luna]

About "replacing the brain", you can just regenerate it.
I had a post here on a very good example on fixing the brain.

check this out:
http://www.newscient...in-disease.html

And yes, if you can maintain your organs (which is actually your body) on health, then you can live forever.
In order to do so, there is the SENS theory of Aubrey de Grey.

[Athanasios]

As far as I know the so called cutting edge tech now makes it possible to grow a sheet of one of the layers of tissue in a blood vessel, endothelium I suppose, roll it into a tube, and voilla. a extreemly disapointing, crapy "blood vessel" that maybe someday will be suitable for bypass surgery.

The latest stuff I heard of is better than normal blood vessels.

[solbanger]

I mentioned a while ago on here somewhere about the possibility of a head transplant or even a brain transplant into a clone body of yourself. I suppose that would cut down on some of the issues you raise (the scar can be hidden under the hairline!). Although it has its own problems.

Problems indeed. Head transplants are feasible, sort of, I recall a doctor from the 70's creating a blueprint with dead chimpanzees. But a major detriment to the procedure was the fact that there was no way to reattach severed spinal cord due to the precise microsurgery involved. Many cell structures require a surgery finesse that approaches the nano scale. This is why doctors can't repair severed optic nerves. The optic nerve is in a very awkward place for microsurgery, and secondly doctors have no way of telling which strand reattaches where. It's kind of like having to reattach a torn telephone wire, but all the cords are the same color. Obviously there's hope that stem cells can make the repairs for us.

On top of that you would probably lose your voice, or at least have to go through multiple reconstructions, since the structure of the throat is also a highly sophisticated yarn of muscle. But the biggest question is where will this new body come from? Who will grow it? And what will its compatibility be? Recall as an infant you build up specific motor skills as you interact with things. These reflexes become more accenuated over time on specific nerves compared to others. This is why kids are always dropping things like toys, food, books... and adults are less clumsy. But it goes beyond just motor skills. Your breathing, heartbeat, digestive system etc. also have entrenched neurons that are in synch with the spial column and brain. This even includes your sense of touch and possibly with that your ability to feel emotion (Imagine a body that cannot feel a broken heart?). What this means is that the clone body that is grown in the tank or whatever cannot have true adult properties or it will just not work. Imagine your brain sending signals to heart nerves that are wired differently in the new body? The heart would collapse from conflicting signals. The clone body will have to have the consistancy of an infant so that the nerves can re-entrench themselves in a growing matrix. So attaching yourself to a cloned, super-sized infant body, you will be like being a helpless parapalegic mute learning to walk, talk and interact with your new body. Obviously I'm discounting the role of computers and their potential to interface with the brain, but this is just a ground level hypothesis.

Then you have to ask yourself who will grow these mega bodies? Will they have accelerated growth and will that affect the host's life in the future i.e. mutations, heart problems, cancers? Just look at Dolly the sheep for instance she died in half the span of time than expected and was prone to illnesses. Just this one case shows how little we understand about the cloning process. It also represents a cone of research that will take thousands of hours of testing, hundreds of researchers and millions in sunk costs to comprehend.

A body at adult size takes at least 10 years to grow, this means that a laboratory will have to house and monitor your Lazarus doll for years before it is prepared. This also means that the science behind growth and care of a clone will have to be advanced which is another bubble of decades long certification for doctors, equipment and processes. Someone's got to know when to inject the right ratio of testosterone/estrogen in the franken-body at the correct intervals ten years down the line. Again it sounds like a problem for a computer controlled environment but that will occur only after techniques are perfected.

Lastly there's the cost - it sounds super expensive! Only Bill Gates-level humans could dream of having such a multi-step rejuvenation process. Who's going to perform these surgeries? How many trained doctors will be available for re-capitation work? Who's going to pay for the literally gallons of medicine? Who's going to pay for every time your new helpless clone body stains its diapers? Only after mega-rich corporate leaders pour money down the line will insurance agencies begin sprouting up to subsidize the cost of cloned services for the average jerk.

With that said, I expect to have cloned human vessels in fifteen years;)

[forever freedom]

I mentioned a while ago on here somewhere about the possibility of a head transplant or even a brain transplant into a clone body of yourself. I suppose that would cut down on some of the issues you raise (the scar can be hidden under the hairline!). Although it has its own problems.

Problems indeed. Head transplants are feasible, sort of, I recall a doctor from the 70's creating a blueprint with dead chimpanzees. But a major detriment to the procedure was the fact that there was no way to reattach severed spinal cord due to the precise microsurgery involved. Many cell structures require a surgery finesse that approaches the nano scale. This is why doctors can't repair severed optic nerves. The optic nerve is in a very awkward place for microsurgery, and secondly doctors have no way of telling which strand reattaches where. It's kind of like having to reattach a torn telephone wire, but all the cords are the same color. Obviously there's hope that stem cells can make the repairs for us.

On top of that you would probably lose your voice, or at least have to go through multiple reconstructions, since the structure of the throat is also a highly sophisticated yarn of muscle. But the biggest question is where will this new body come from? Who will grow it? And what will its compatibility be? Recall as an infant you build up specific motor skills as you interact with things. These reflexes become more accenuated over time on specific nerves compared to others. This is why kids are always dropping things like toys, food, books... and adults are less clumsy. But it goes beyond just motor skills. Your breathing, heartbeat, digestive system etc. also have entrenched neurons that are in synch with the spial column and brain. This even includes your sense of touch and possibly with that your ability to feel emotion (Imagine a body that cannot feel a broken heart?). What this means is that the clone body that is grown in the tank or whatever cannot have true adult properties or it will just not work. Imagine your brain sending signals to heart nerves that are wired differently in the new body? The heart would collapse from conflicting signals. The clone body will have to have the consistancy of an infant so that the nerves can re-entrench themselves in a growing matrix. So attaching yourself to a cloned, super-sized infant body, you will be like being a helpless parapalegic mute learning to walk, talk and interact with your new body. Obviously I'm discounting the role of computers and their potential to interface with the brain, but this is just a ground level hypothesis.

Then you have to ask yourself who will grow these mega bodies? Will they have accelerated growth and will that affect the host's life in the future i.e. mutations, heart problems, cancers? Just look at Dolly the sheep for instance she died in half the span of time than expected and was prone to illnesses. Just this one case shows how little we understand about the cloning process. It also represents a cone of research that will take thousands of hours of testing, hundreds of researchers and millions in sunk costs to comprehend.

A body at adult size takes at least 10 years to grow, this means that a laboratory will have to house and monitor your Lazarus doll for years before it is prepared. This also means that the science behind growth and care of a clone will have to be advanced which is another bubble of decades long certification for doctors, equipment and processes. Someone's got to know when to inject the right ratio of testosterone/estrogen in the franken-body at the correct intervals ten years down the line. Again it sounds like a problem for a computer controlled environment but that will occur only after techniques are perfected.

Lastly there's the cost - it sounds super expensive! Only Bill Gates-level humans could dream of having such a multi-step rejuvenation process. Who's going to perform these surgeries? How many trained doctors will be available for re-capitation work? Who's going to pay for the literally gallons of medicine? Who's going to pay for every time your new helpless clone body stains its diapers? Only after mega-rich corporate leaders pour money down the line will insurance agencies begin sprouting up to subsidize the cost of cloned services for the average jerk.

With that said, I expect to have cloned human vessels in fifteen years;)

Hey again someone quotes something as if i said it. As soon as i started reading i knew that had to be too dumb for me to have written it (jking Fear&Obey).


What you said reminds me of the movie "The Island". Have you seen it?

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It's from a guy that's told that, instead of living in one of the world's last facilities, he is actually a grown up clone that, among with all other people in the facility, is going to be eventually killed so that his body parts can be transfered to the wealthy guy that paid the company to clone him. Of course in the movie only those wealthy people are benefited, but i think that in real life human cloning would end up having major benefits for all of us. I guess in real world it's not going to be like that but there are just too many ethical problems with human cloning. I have a more amoral opinion, i think that human cloning ultimately does more good than evil and should consequently be pursued, as anything that ultimately does more good than evil. But there are just too many short-sighted hardcore ethical and conservative people out there.... darn.
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