• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans


Adverts help to support the work of this non-profit organisation. To go ad-free join as a Member.


Photo
- - - - -

Guilt


  • Please log in to reply
22 replies to this topic

#1 bacopa

  • Validating/Suspended
  • 2,223 posts
  • 159
  • Location:Boston

Posted 28 October 2003 - 09:46 PM


Why should guilt exist? it seems to be a useless emotion and causes many people to suffer as a result. Society puts pressure on the individual to conform to a certain paradigm and if the individual neglects this often feelings of "guilt" ensue. In my mind it seems from the day we enter school to the workforce we are pressured intentionaly and unintentionaly to feel we must be part of a team/group that is a microcosim of society perhaps...else we get labeled as "losers" or "rejects" or whatever guilt derived pop-culture catch phrase seems to suit our "sin" against society so to speak. So my question is a complex one because it deals with cultural as well as biological substrates that contribute to a social ethic. If we all lived in an isolated cave I'd imagine we wouldn't feel guilt and maybe we'd be truly guilt free...I don't know. But the world I live in is filled with pressures individual as well as societal and this bothers me because I think it takes away from our intended goals. We WANT to do great things or we wouldn't attempt them in the first place, so why does guilt from our peers end up overtaking our own volitions sometimes. [angry]

Edited by Mind, 29 October 2003 - 07:42 PM.


#2 chubtoad

  • Life Member
  • 976 posts
  • 5
  • Location:Illinois

Posted 29 October 2003 - 03:16 AM

That's a good question, the only thing I can think of is that man has historically depended on groups for survival so guilt was necessary to make sure your behavior was accepted in the group. This is sort of an indirect answer though I'm not sure if there is a more direct reason for guilt.

#3 bacopa

  • Topic Starter
  • Validating/Suspended
  • 2,223 posts
  • 159
  • Location:Boston

Posted 29 October 2003 - 04:22 PM

That seems to be a pretty good answer at least in my estimation and perhaps my thinking is circular in the sense that guilt is an instinctive emotion regardless...

sponsored ad

  • Advert

#4 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,074 posts
  • 2,007
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 29 October 2003 - 07:47 PM

I think we have guilt because we exist and need energy for life. Every single thing we do uses environmental resources that some other entity could have used. As we live, something else dies.

I figure the best way to deal with it is to make sure to give something back. Be a creator not a destroyer. Add more value to the world as we live.

#5 Lazarus Long

  • Life Member, Guardian
  • 8,116 posts
  • 242
  • Location:Northern, Western Hemisphere of Earth, Usually of late, New York

Posted 29 October 2003 - 08:17 PM

I have followed this thread since its beginning with some interest. You see, there are two distinct types of "why" in the question. One is why does a concept like "guilt" exist at all but the second is "why do humans experience guilt".

We might argue existentialist and causal qualitative distinctions of why as well as "how" but lets focus on just the two above. The first is difficult and could involve any number of reasons stemming from an evolutionary perspective of doing something contrary to survival, or antithetical to a specific self recognized interest. It certainly does not require an appeal to something greater than one's self as some have alluded to, it does not require a morality to feel guilt any more than to feel "stupid" at making a mistake.

Guilt is a variation on the emotions of failure and at times a warning and at times self abuse or self inflicted punishment but the second aspect may be of more interest than the first because "guilt" while it might be derivative of social evolution is also a specific sensory function of the brain and something that we see is subject to manipulation like the rest of our sensory experience.

A while back I posted a series of articles on experiments and studies done when due to an accident a person had suffered severe damage to a specific lobe of the brain and what was interesting is that apart from any apparent intellectual damage, the individual in question had lost all "sense of guilt" and had become a sociopath as a result.

This had lead researchers to delve deeper and it seems that we actually do have a sort of biological moral compass. We are hardwired and the wiring can be altered in a variety of ways, drugs, lesions, electroshock, and behavioral modification to name only a few.

Now the first question is one that I think begs a deeper response than we have been giving it but the second is so glaringly obvious that I ask instead:

Is guilt simply a negative motive?

In other words if joy is a positive motive than is guilt simply the other end of the emotional spectrum?

Are these to be found along a continuum like love/hate or pleasure/pain and do we mostly experience it moderately somewhere in the middle?

Is the value of guilt one of warning like pain, fear, and hate?

I suggest if something is making you feel guilty then danger is implied, danger can be real or imagined but the warning is that you are doing something wrong, something that will create hazardous risk or unnecessary harm, to yourself and/or others that you care about.

Or is guilt simply the social button that allows others to manipulate us, the attachment point of the strings that bind us to one another, like love?

Edited by Mind, 29 October 2003 - 10:32 PM.


#6 bacopa

  • Topic Starter
  • Validating/Suspended
  • 2,223 posts
  • 159
  • Location:Boston

Posted 29 October 2003 - 09:37 PM

Interesting...I have guilt over lack of past accomplishments so that would fall under the category of "failure" guilt. I also agree that guilt can be self abusive and self inflicted punishment. Religion can cause guilt as it causes one to succumb to a "higher authority" and the stringent rules associated with it. Society puts guilt on us especially institutions of higher learning or whenever there is presitige and "pride" involved. I think that form of guilt maybe similar to a social kind of guilt. "if you don't adhere to the rules of what we're doing."

SSRI's or any anti-depressant can make it easier, I've found, to not feel as guilty which is interesting because that seems to have alot to do with memory and what can trigger feelings of guilt. So if you numb the pain and directly effect the neurotransmitters associated with depression perhaps you're numbing the emotion of guilt which goes hand in hand with depression and regret etc. Take away the emotional attachment to ideas and incidents in your life and you can erase the guilt. Electroshock therapy probably works on the same line.

I personally feel guilt is along the continuum of love/hate pleasure/pain etc. And it also could be a warning as well as a social button. So I think dependent upon the situation and how it gets "played out" guilt can have a multi-function effect. And if you use it to your advantage maybe it can be a positive thing the example of keeping in line with societal rules. A guilty person angry at himself may use guilt as a reason to become extremely altruistic etc.

I wish we didn't experience this as it only hurt us more especially if it is a failure type thing. Ideally I would rather intelectually understand the problem not necasarily "feel it!' And alas people can cause us to feel guilty if we're not playing by their particular brand of rules. [":)]

#7 bacopa

  • Topic Starter
  • Validating/Suspended
  • 2,223 posts
  • 159
  • Location:Boston

Posted 29 October 2003 - 09:50 PM

as for guilt as a result of not giving back perhaps that is true in the sense that we know when others are suffering which also holds us in line. Another interesting phenomenon is our need to feel like w'ere doing things right. Obviously we want to live good lives but I'm more interested as to why things "eat us up inside" at times. For instance why I should say "some of us" don't feel content in many situations. Why do we make ourselves feel we must adhere to certain social norms and why do we instinctively know when we are not?

This has something to do with guilt I'm sure. Like right now I feel like I should be doing a million things. I feel guilty that i'm not volunteering in some situation. I wish I could have done certain things better in my past etc. But at the same time I want to get away from some of this as well! So it's an interesting hide and go seek our minds do.

Escape vs. joining or fitting in. Sleep/Awake, doing/laziness, trying/giving up. It's all very robotic either we're saying yes to life or no immortality vs. death?

#8 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,074 posts
  • 2,007
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 29 October 2003 - 10:31 PM

It certainly does not require an appeal to something greater than one's self as some have alluded to, it does not require a morality to feel guilt any more than to feel "stupid" at making a mistake.


Certainly?

There may be some basal evolved emotion of guilt hardwired into humans. However, the examples of guilt described througout this thread require a hefty dose of social context to understand. Most of these are levels of guilt above what any animal is capable (as far as we understand today)

Same for feeling "stupid". One cannot feel stupid without a social context to measure what is "stupid".

#9 bacopa

  • Topic Starter
  • Validating/Suspended
  • 2,223 posts
  • 159
  • Location:Boston

Posted 29 October 2003 - 10:46 PM

My dog certainly seems to have guilt written on her face when she does something wrong. I'm sure chimps can feel guilt obviosly I'm no expert

#10 Lazarus Long

  • Life Member, Guardian
  • 8,116 posts
  • 242
  • Location:Northern, Western Hemisphere of Earth, Usually of late, New York

Posted 29 October 2003 - 11:02 PM

I am curious Mind why did you edit my post?

"Certainly" as in: Here is a "specific counter example" that goes contrary to common perception. All "psychological guilt" is self inflicted even if the programing is externally applied. What I was suggesting outright is that that it is a form of social psychology but the relationship is far more subtle than is being addressed so far and without the willing participation of the "guilty party" there is no guilty feeling.

First off I am assuming we are discussing the psychology of guilt, not juris prudence. Second I am pointing that guilt is an internalized response to an external event.

For example do you feel guilty about the genocide that was required to colonize America?

I doubt it but if you had been programmed to you might but just as you could be programmed to respond this way you might override that programming by how you reorganize yourself ethically in response to your own experience. Conversely you might be taught it was an accidental or justified genocide against savage people, and after serious study come to realize that you had been lied to so as to keep you from feeling an existential guilt and suddenly you feel guilty.

However, since it is a past event that you cannot change and are only the beneficiary of, you might be able to remedy the complex by developing systemic forms of "apology" and prevention against the repetition of such an act. Or you might rationalize it away or go through psychological denial so as to remain functional and not succumb to depression associated with guilt.

The point is that the experience of "guilt" is not only self inflicted it is self reconciled and the process is measured by our peers to determine social utility versus risk. Not enough sense of guilt, or even the perception as not possessing sufficient guilt sets off defense mechanism in the group that they are facing a sociopath and hence they ostracize and/or eliminate the potential risk.

It is this latter relationship of our peers that introduces the "legal definition" of guilt. The social context is related to the survival of the individual in relation to the survival of the group and after all we are "social apes". Most pack animals have some form of "guilt function" hard wired into their neurophysiology.

As for being stupid that requires no social context whatsoever. I have been quite alone and done something that inflicted injury upon myself and apart from severe pain and without any sense of embarrassment I felt total stupid. It did not require the recognition of my error by anyone other than myself to realize how stupid I had been and no one but myself was needed to correct the problem, since that time at least I survived my own stupidity.

Certainly understanding the magnitude of my stupidity and acknowledging it was the first step in remedying the situation and it is true that often we rely on other people to provide that sense of considerate objectivity, but the definition of stupid comes from recognizing "folly" or foolish behavior with respect to what we normally think of as when "we should have known better".

#11 Lazarus Long

  • Life Member, Guardian
  • 8,116 posts
  • 242
  • Location:Northern, Western Hemisphere of Earth, Usually of late, New York

Posted 29 October 2003 - 11:09 PM

Take an example.

Shoplifting

Is the guilt caused by some moral programming?

If so how is that being overridden in order to commit the act in the first place?

Through the thrill of risk taking?

Or is the guilty feeling only triggered by the "shamming" associated with being caught?

OK take a more complex event like infidelity.

Or how we reconcile murder on the battlefield?

Contemplate those while I address a second aspect of this thread that dfowler raised. I suspect that memory is most certainly a function of guilt and its depressive cycle and the behavior of denial and the psychology of trauma bear this out.

In fact we have a built in mental defense system that allows us to block out severe guilt when it becomes "traumatic" and it is suspected that this normal function is somehow misapplied to create sociopathic individuals that find it easy to forget feeling bad or forget why they feel bad for doing harm to themselves and others.

BTW, like dfowler I also do not think feeling guilty or stupid is the province of only humans.

#12 bacopa

  • Topic Starter
  • Validating/Suspended
  • 2,223 posts
  • 159
  • Location:Boston

Posted 30 October 2003 - 06:17 AM

forgetting guilt is the way to survive in this world as Capatilist society makes it so easy to just keep on keeping on! So that is a plus to living in America I guess

#13 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,074 posts
  • 2,007
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 30 October 2003 - 08:07 AM

My dog certainly seems to have guilt written on her face when she does something wrong.


Until a dog (or other pet besides a primate) explains to me its feeling of guilt, I can't just accept that it does feel this emotion. I do leave it open for consideration though.

The sad look on your dog or my cat could easily be fear of verbal or corporeal punishment. They do something bad - they fear the punishment. If we never disciplined our pets they would never get that look on their faces (again social context/conditioning).

Edited by Mind, 30 October 2003 - 06:51 PM.


#14 MichaelAnissimov

  • Guest
  • 905 posts
  • 1
  • Location:San Francisco, CA

Posted 30 October 2003 - 04:13 PM

Asking for an explanation from animals is a bit much; a human with damaged vocal cords can't explain her emotions to you either. It's more a matter of the brain circuits being there or not. Dogs and other pets *might indeed* feel more primitive forms of what we call "guilt" for humans, but the word "guilt" may be too specific to describe these emotions which may be quite different, and may or may not be consciously experienced by the animal. (Again, it's a matter of whether the brain circuitry is present or not.) However, I suspect that guilt in the sense we're familiar with is a relatively recent adaptation with its roots in selection pressures driven by social factors, as opposed to the feeling of pain, for example. So, animals might not feel anything close to it. To wrap it up: assuming your dog is feeling guilt due to a look on his face is anthropomorphism, demanding a English language explanation from the dog is going too far in the opposite direction.

By the way, if we don't like the emotion of guilt, then we should definitely plan on eliminating it outright, (among consenting individuals, of course) adding in new mental hardware to patch up any holes left by the elimination of guilt. Sound good?

#15 bacopa

  • Topic Starter
  • Validating/Suspended
  • 2,223 posts
  • 159
  • Location:Boston

Posted 30 October 2003 - 05:28 PM

I'm with you Michael on that one lets get rid of it! my life would certainly be better

#16 Lazarus Long

  • Life Member, Guardian
  • 8,116 posts
  • 242
  • Location:Northern, Western Hemisphere of Earth, Usually of late, New York

Posted 30 October 2003 - 07:02 PM

Ahh how insidious and seductive is the hedonist imperative, how deliciously deadly an embrace. Guilt is a form of emotional "agony." By all means give it up those of you that seek to know all and not feel a need for understanding love risks hate; that to feel pleasure has pain in opposition as a balancing "value" and that for the satisfaction of the joy of "happiness," it is required to also know the dark-sided shading of the contrasting guilt.

You who would count by only positive numbers fail to appreciate the reality of imaginary numbers and the negative range of expression and experience.

It seems you all want to save the world; to be Promethean with no Roks, Jesus without a Cross, Allah with no warrior tribe and martyred self sacrifice.

Or maybe you just seek salvation by getting someone else to save you?

Do you start your count of days with a zero or a one?

How do you establish "values" with only a positive number-line and no negation?

For memory to function do you only count backwards to the point that begins a forward march?

Isn't denial merely the subtraction of pain to allow the forgetting of a crime?

Why not instead live so as to apply the Physicians' Credo; "First do no harm."

Fear not guilt if you do nothing wrong. Oohh that is right reality requires that moral compass to navigate, life is the constant challenge of shifting balance in the gray zone of lesser and greater evil. There is no absolute truth to a pragmatic reality right?

If it is all good; why feel any pain at all? Why should we know guilt?

How 'bout to survive, finding our way to things that right it often requires a guiding light to navigate the dark and recognize the risks of hot and frigid fright?

Look for at your emotional experience not as simple one-sided experience but as rather a vital spectra that reflects billions of years for the evolution of intelligence. Intelligence that is more than merely rational, intelligence that is "humane" precisely because we feel with our minds not merely our bodies.

I suggest we ought not be too quick to opt for "only" pure reason and simplistically see emotion as all pain contrasted by appealing superficiality. It is a bad bargain and a contract signed in blood treating all flesh as a commodity of the lowest value.

Understand clearly the risk/reward relationship of this Faustian exchange being offered by those that promise a "Single All Good Intelligence".

#17 MichaelAnissimov

  • Guest
  • 905 posts
  • 1
  • Location:San Francisco, CA

Posted 31 October 2003 - 09:30 AM

Hm, how is eliminating guilt any more hedonistic than eliminating aging, for example? Why is reengineering emotions considered "insidious"? (I may not have understood you correctly.) I'm not sure exactly how wanting to eliminate negative emotions is related to "wanting to know all" or stuff along those lines either. "Love", as we know it, is simply an adaptive subroutine, a piece of neurological hardware unique to homo sapiens, accompanied by a certain subjective sensation. As we explore the space of minds beyond homo sapiens, including minds without the negative aspects of guilt, succeptibility to pain, propensity to anger, and much more, we will find a massive number of new "emotions", and new subjective sensations to accompany them. I don't expect the typical being a million years into the future to still possess the biological, human emotion of guilt, and you shouldn't either. Our current set of emotions are just the *starting point* on an incredibly long and interesting journey.

There does not need to be slavery for people to enjoy freedom. There does not need to be death for people to appreciate life. There does not need to be agony, sadness, or guilt in order to appreciate happiness to its fullest. Just wait for the testimonial from a future being that possesses a pleasure center but lacks a pain center.

It seems you all want to save the world; to be Promethean with no Roks, Jesus without a Cross, Allah with no warrior tribe and martyred self sacrifice.


Gandhi and MLK were both assassinated, but even if they weren't, what they accomplished would be no less impressive. Sometimes we can accomplish great deeds without significant drawbacks. The man that invented the cure for polio didn't need to experience suffering or guilt in order for that advance to be worthwhile.

Or maybe you just seek salvation by getting someone else to save you?


How is this bad, if someone wants to help? We must all work together; no person is an island, and all great deeds are accomplished by the cooperation of many individuals. And who are you referring to as the "other", in this scenario? Friendly AI? And what exactly does this have to do with the above statements, anyway? How does this have to do with the notion of eliminating the negative aspects of the emotion of "guilt"?

Why not instead live so as to apply the Physicians' Credo; "First do no harm."


I'm not understanding how this relates to modifying/upgrading the default, evolved, flawed mental subroutine of "guilt".

Fear not guilt if you do nothing wrong.


I don't "fear" guilt, as I don't "fear" death, I just think that the default program could use an upgrade. What else would you expect? The psychological program devised by a blind and fundamentally unguided emergent process (evolution) is bound to be inferior to better programs created by compassionate and intelligent minds. Changing ourselves at the most fundamental level, physically and psychologically, is not hubris - it's what we were always meant to do! Do you agree?

There is no absolute truth to a pragmatic reality right?


There is no absolute truth to any reality, really. Nothing can be said with 100% confidence, except perhaps the existence of your own qualia.

How 'bout to survive, finding our way to things that right it often requires a guiding light to navigate the dark and recognize the risks of hot and frigid fright?


Yup, cognitive adaptations like the guilt subsystem solve computational problems for evolved organisms in hostile and competitive environments with scarce resources. But you can't expect the guilt subsystem that evolution designed to be optimal forever. "Guilt" is not a monolithic philosophical concept, but a multi-component system created through evolution and natural selection. When we have access to extremely high-powered computing, we will analyze it in its entirety, watch it in slow motion, run simulations based on oodles of possible variations, expose it to our own judgement, ask ourselves; "is this cognitive program the best we can do for ourselves?" I think the answer will be "no, we can do better, and we should".

Look for at your emotional experience not as simple one-sided experience but as rather a vital spectra that reflects billions of years for the evolution of intelligence. Intelligence that is more than merely rational, intelligence that is "humane" precisely because we feel with our minds not merely our bodies.


I don't see guilt as a simple one-sided experience. It is very complex. But just because it's there and it has helped us solve adaptive problems in the past does not mean it will be around forever. It is that feeling with our minds you speak of that will lead us to revise and improve our minds from the groundwork up.

I'm not opting for "only pure reason", I just want to expand choices so everyone can be whatever they want to be. I don't "promise" a "Single All Good Being" because it will take hard work on the part of everyone to create kinder-than-human intelligence at all. But I do believe kinder-than-human intelligence is possible, and that it will represent a massive moral and social advance for humanity. I'm not sure how you got the idea that I was advocating "only pure reason" just by suggesting that the emotion of guilt can be eliminated or improved. I think I might be giving you the wrong impression, and (again) it may partially be a matter of semantics. I'm advocating people getting *whatever the heck they want* as long as it doesn't violate someone else's volition. However, I don't think that cleaning cognitive house smacks of superficiality in the least, and in fact represents the deepest possible voyage of self-discovery reality might have to offer; truly taking control of our own cognitive development and truly being who we want to be.

#18 bacopa

  • Topic Starter
  • Validating/Suspended
  • 2,223 posts
  • 159
  • Location:Boston

Posted 31 October 2003 - 07:34 PM

I totally agree with your statements Michael as I've dealt long enough with guilt as a side effect to OCD and people telling me I can therefore "appreciate" things better as a result. Nonsense. appreciation can come from simply enjoying what you're doing the best way one can. It really can be as simple as that. And furthermore there is nothing wrong with enhancing the brain in my opinion. your making things better not worse and the qualitative differences between future generations with the augmentation vs. older ones doesn't make the older one's less important or inferior as a result.

As for the hedonistic imperitive idea that has already sort of happened for centuries people have escaped this way. What about those idiots who go down to Cancun and drink and yell "wooohoo!" really loud? Those guys are sucumbing to the simplest form of hedonism. Why would enhancements make hedonism more strong? Most people decide for themselves how serious to take their lives, whether they want to process every thought or forget it all in a drugged out haze! Bettering our minds would have nothing to do with whether or not we become hedonists...I don't think.

Furthermore if we don't make these changes than that in itself is a tragedy. The only dispute that people will have, which is a biggie, is whether this is the best way to go about it

I do agree with Lazarus that having a "dark side" is not necassarily a bad thing that's more personal preference I think.

#19 Omnido

  • Guest
  • 194 posts
  • 2

Posted 04 November 2003 - 12:39 AM

Guilt is a programmed response to events. It is also a large part of empathy.
However in philosophy class, we defined guilt psychologically and socially.
Social guilt implies negative consequence against the one whom would experience the guilt.
Personal Guilt implies negative regard for ones actions, in light of alternate or "better" actions that could have been taken to produce positive results.
Then you get the combination of the two: Personal and Social guilt, with respect to both of the aforementioned.

I remember being asked the question (as many of us have asked countelss times)
"If you could get away with action, thought, or decision A with zero negative consequences as a result, would you still commit to action, thought, decision A?"

Its interesting to note just how much social guilt is generated by even thinking about that question in public after it has been asked. Everyone in the room suddenly halts, stops to think, and considers their response carefully.
Why? Because its a social event involving social overtones.

If everyone answers: "Yes!" then they have all implied their total disregard for everyone else in the event that negative consequences would never occur. Thus they only have regard for their peers as a result of necessity, not choice.
If everyone answers: "No!" then those are decisions based upon personal guilt, and/or empathy with respect to everyone else.
Ive found that those whom answer "No" are usually heavily religious, or very caregiving in nature.
Then there are those who answer: "Maybe..."
These individuals are very unique, in that they categorize various levels of guilt or rational thinking when applied to justification and fairness.
This is the thin line between social programming and genetic programming.

Now one must still ask, "If someone could choose No in light of Yes, when Yes would incur them no negative consequences, why would anyone chose No to begin with?"

That is the evolutionary standard by which one would have to revert to productivity as one possible answer. While its true, if there were no negative consequences, many would go out and do whatever they wanted without any fear of harm.
Would raping an individual without any consequence yield any productive result?
Would killing someone off the street arbitrarily yield any productive result?
Would causing mental turmoil to someone else merely for the sake of amusement yield any productive result?

These questions are ambiguous due to the enormous amounts of variables and circumstances involved. But it still defines Guilt as a requisite to effective social function in which any greater gains or continued developments of progress are defined. There has existed no chaotic or anarchy-driven civilization that thrived, progressed, and dominated the world.
So perhaps Guilt could be defined as a necessary function to human interaction on a social level. If not, there would be no regret for anything, regardless of the consequences.
Such people do exist. They are called "sociopaths" and those once identified are usually locked up or erradicated from society.
The mere fact of that demonstrates the unlikelyhood of any such person or group of persons successfully integrating any kind of functional and productive society.

There has to be some value of enough significance which is held as a social standard for a society to function. Otherwise, we are merely co-existing as a result of circumstance and causality. While that definition might prove accurate for the majority of the non-sentient species on this planet, it wreaks havoc with sentient ones.

Of course, one might argue that the backbone of our current society is based upon deception, greed, corruption, and fear. It would seem that guilt is absent from this model, at least as far as socially. Darwins memetics are very problematic and complex arent they?

Edited by Omnido, 04 November 2003 - 10:09 AM.


#20 bacopa

  • Topic Starter
  • Validating/Suspended
  • 2,223 posts
  • 159
  • Location:Boston

Posted 07 November 2003 - 02:31 AM

Of course, one might argue that the backbone of our current society is based upon deception, greed, corruption, and fear. It would seem that guilt is absent from this model, at least as far as socially. Darwins memetics are very problematic and complex arent they?

Yes I would agree with that notion. And it's too bad that has to be the way for the time being perhaps one day guilt will be eradicated and I could imagine a society that is guilt free but not responsibly unstable due to people having high morals simple as that

#21 Saille Willow

  • Guest
  • 112 posts
  • 0
  • Location:Somerset West, Western Cape, South Africa

Posted 08 November 2003 - 10:22 PM

Quilt is something that I feel when something I had done do not agree with what has accumulated in my mind as right and wrong. Some of it is social, some from my personal experience of what causes harm. The moment I feel quilt, I stop to examine why I feel quilt. If it is obselete in its origin, I simply acknowledge it and let it go. Never to bug me again. If however I feel there was cause to feel quilt, I set about to correct it. The quilt then simply comes as a reminder to stop and re-evaluate my code for interacting with the world. If quilt is heeded in a conscious and constructive way it serves as a valuable tool for adjusting to an everchanging world.

If however quilt is either ignored or denied it becomes destructive and eventualy cause perverse behaviour. Alternatively it makes the individual inflexible in the interaction with the world and the preservation of the self-lie becomes the reason for interaction with those around him / her. Dictators are good examples of this.

#22 allnewsuperman

  • Guest
  • 8 posts
  • 0

Posted 08 November 2003 - 11:12 PM

I agree with Sallie on this to some extent, but if the guilt continued to bug me I would look at it more and more closely and find out what the real causes for it were and explain them to myself.

I am really, really honest with my subconscious and you might laugh at this but I truly believe that it rewards me by trusting me with such things as this. If I mathematically see that the guilt is uncalled for then I try to drop it completely. If it keeps at me at this stage I must endeavour later to try and look at it again and how it can be resolved, and sometimes, it would be the mathematical side of me that is wrong and would have made an error in terms of justice and fairness. In a situation such as this i would be extremely happy to have guilt and so would the rest of the human race. Has guilt ever become more of a hinderence to me than an asset? No.

#23 connective_mind

  • Guest
  • 4 posts
  • 0

Posted 21 November 2003 - 09:54 PM

I belive guilt is a reation from failure and thats simply all it is. In all aspects you face the moment you feel guilt you already dissagree with what you did and no matter what your belifs are programed under no matter what your subjective importances thinks is correct when you do something and experince gult you obviouly want to change the outcome or you are not satisfied with those coordinates you have just displayed....:0




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users