16 replies to this topic

[Wonder9]

Hello to all of you!

I am kind of confuse here (maybe because english is my second language) and I'd like some clarification.

Should I take an additional choline source when using nootropics that "inhibit the acetylcholine release" such as vinpo for example?

What does it means to "inhibit acetylcholine release". That it reduces acetylcholine in my brain or vice-versa?

Many thanks for your answer.

[JonesGuy]

I'm not certain on the details, I don't deal much with that nootropic.

Acetylcholine is associated with two systems in your body. It's associated with your control over your muscles (and is necessary for muscle firing). It's also associated with arousal and learning: we need ACh release in order to learn 'interesting' things and we need it to be interested. That's a pretty important system to disrupt.

[Wonder9]

I'm not certain on the details, I don't deal much with that nootropic.

Acetylcholine is associated with two systems in your body. It's associated with your control over your muscles (and is necessary for muscle firing). It's also associated with arousal and learning: we need ACh release in order to learn 'interesting' things and we need it to be interested. That's a pretty important system to disrupt.

If X nootropic inhibit the acetylcholine release what does it mean, that I should supplement with choline to protect myself or that X nootropic is already firing up too much of acetylcholine.

[mentatpsi]

I'm not certain on the details, I don't deal much with that nootropic.

Acetylcholine is associated with two systems in your body. It's associated with your control over your muscles (and is necessary for muscle firing). It's also associated with arousal and learning: we need ACh release in order to learn 'interesting' things and we need it to be interested. That's a pretty important system to disrupt.

If X nootropic inhibit the acetylcholine release what does it mean, that I should supplement with choline to protect myself or that X nootropic is already firing up too much of acetylcholine.

I think you should provide the sentence in more context that you are referring to... mainly since it can mean two things that are dependent on the context...

however if the sentence you extracted it from is accurate... in that "to inhibit acetylcholine release" was exactly how it was stated... it means it lowers the amount of ACh within the synapse...

if it is inhibiting ACh receptor sites... then it is increasing ACh within the synapse. If the inhibition is what provides the nootropic effect then the supplementation would taint the nootropic effect. I cannot see a inhibition of ACh to be nootropic... does Vinpoc really inhibit ACh release? I thought it increased it... I'll examine it later if someone doesn't beat me to it

[Wonder9]

I'm not certain on the details, I don't deal much with that nootropic.

Acetylcholine is associated with two systems in your body. It's associated with your control over your muscles (and is necessary for muscle firing). It's also associated with arousal and learning: we need ACh release in order to learn 'interesting' things and we need it to be interested. That's a pretty important system to disrupt.

If X nootropic inhibit the acetylcholine release what does it mean, that I should supplement with choline to protect myself or that X nootropic is already firing up too much of acetylcholine.

I think you should provide the sentence in more context that you are referring to... mainly since it can mean two things that are dependent on the context...

however if the sentence you extracted it from is accurate... in that "to inhibit acetylcholine release" was exactly how it was stated... it means it lowers the amount of ACh within the synapse...

if it is inhibiting ACh receptor sites... then it is increasing ACh within the synapse. If the inhibition is what provides the nootropic effect then the supplementation would taint the nootropic effect. I cannot see a inhibition of ACh to be nootropic... does Vinpoc really inhibit ACh release? I thought it increased it... I'll examine it later if someone doesn't beat me to it

It's very tough on me because I am new to nootrops. I have had very bad experiences with as low as 400mg of piracetam and good expereinces with vinpocetine so far at 15mg per day. Depreny is another bad story which I posted earlier.

Here is my problem: According to many hours of research perform by me, vinpo is an inhibitor of acetylcholine release.

Vinpo has execellent effects on my brain in terms of focus and concetration at the price of two terrible side effects:

1. As stated earlier in a vinpo post by me it floods my brain with Serotonin (google search will prove it) and causes severe impotence because of that and total apathy.

2. It give some headaches which go away after 3 teaspoons of lecithin (which contradict the fact that vinpo fires up acetylcholine in the brain).

3. It makes my extremeties cold, and one of my important extremity small and flacid. I suspect it's because vinpo redirects blood to the brain.

One observation that I made today is that the apathy and serotonin effects stop very quickly when I've fed my brain with huge amount of honey or other form of sugar.

So basically, vinpo works fine as long as I feed with 2 things: Lecithin and honey. In other words Choline and sugar in massive amounts! This however doesn't solve the flacid problem. I have always detested sugary foods and now I crave for them!!!

[Moses Gunner]

I have been taking vinpo with Piracetam, Huperazine A, Vinpo, Bacopa Minora, DMAE, Ginko, Rhodiola Rosea, and L-Pyroglutamic Acid almost every day for about 2 months now. This next month I will be dropping the Vinpo and Huperazine A, and adding my old friends Idebenone with Lecithin. I just don't think the Vinpo and Huperazine are worth the extra money they cost me. I hope the Idebenone will synergies with the Bacopa, making my perfect daily nootropic stack complete. Oh and also I highly suggest taking a good Calcium, Zink, Magnesium daily multivitamin to enhance all stacks.

Edited by Moses Gunner, 10 April 2008 - 08:34 AM.

[Wonder9]

I have been taking vinpo with Piracetam, Huperazine A, Vinpo, Bacopa Minora, DMAE, Ginko, Rhodiola Rosea, and L-Pyroglutamic Acid almost every day for about 2 months now. This next month I will be dropping the Vinpo and Huperazine A, and adding my old friends Idebenone with Lecithin. I just don't think the Vinpo and Huperazine are worth the extra money they cost me. I hope the Idebenone will synergies with the Bacopa, making my perfect daily nootropic stack complete. Oh and also I highly suggest taking a good Calcium, Zink, Magnesium daily multivitamin to enhance all stacks.

I also take multivitamins and zinc. I droped the lecithin 2 days ago because it was making me sleepy.

Now, all I take is 15mg of vinpo. Most of the side effects are gone but 2: I am still impotent and I feel I am doing hypomania! I think my body is adjusting to vinpo and it is going to take a while until it can fully handle the vinpo.
It's a very good product that has profound effects on me. I think it works on me this way because I had to be extremely sedantary for the past 2 years of my life.

[dopamine]

Vinpocetine decreases acetylcholine release as a part of its neuroprotective function, and is ultimately the downstream effect of vinpocetine's inhibition of Ca2+ excitatory neuronal channels. In the context of excess glutamate, decreasing acetylcholine release is essential to preventing neurotoxicity, but is not in the otherwise "normal" turn of events a positive effect relating to increased cognition or memory.

[edward]

I have never gotten good responses from vinpocetine, tried it many times with many things, even have some on my shelf I bought recently and the same effect, a sort of dulled out don't want to talk and can't articulate feeling.

[Wonder9]

Vinpocetine decreases acetylcholine release as a part of its neuroprotective function, and is ultimately the downstream effect of vinpocetine's inhibition of Ca2+ excitatory neuronal channels. In the context of excess glutamate, decreasing acetylcholine release is essential to preventing neurotoxicity, but is not in the otherwise "normal" turn of events a positive effect relating to increased cognition or memory.

Then if vinpo decreases acetylcholine, why when I take lecithin to increase my acetylcholine to counteract a bit the effects of vinpo do I get a headache and also get sleepy?

[Moses Gunner]

Yeah I'm liking Vinpo less and less. I would ditch it and go Ginko. Kind of ticks me off to learn that Vinpo inhibits acetylcholine, I'm halting the use of it asap
.

[zoolander]

Yeah Yeah I'm thinking that not much is know about about the actions of vinpocetine. Most of the actions put forward are possible mechanisms but nothing hard. It's thought that vinpocetine inhibits the release of acetylcholine enduced by excitory amino acids (EAA's) such as L-glutamate. Research has also suggested that vinpocetine has a role in increasing cerebral blood flow. Vinpocetine is thought to block calcium channels and regulate voltage gated sodium channels which results in the dilation of the cerebral vasculature. We could probably bring both acetylcholine inhibition and cerebrovascular dilation together through vinpocetine's ability to act on the above mentioned channels because the regulation of glutaminergic systems is also control through these channels.

Anyhow.....as mentioned there no real hard evidence outlining the exact method of actions. This is more than likely due to the complexity of EAA neurotransmission.

Just for the record...be careful not to get confused by the terms acetylcholine inhibition and acetylcholine esterase inhibition as the former decreases synpatic acetylcholine and the former increases.

[Phreak]

What are the benefits of Vinpocetine alone then?

If it inhibits acetylcholine then surely it is counterproductive to take it?

What effect does it produce on its own? (Vasodialation etc...?)

[Wonder9]

Vinpocetine decreases acetylcholine release as a part of its neuroprotective function, and is ultimately the downstream effect of vinpocetine's inhibition of Ca2+ excitatory neuronal channels. In the context of excess glutamate, decreasing acetylcholine release is essential to preventing neurotoxicity, but is not in the otherwise "normal" turn of events a positive effect relating to increased cognition or memory.

Well, according to my research for the past few days, vinpocetine invreases acethylcholine. As a matter of facts vinpo fires up all neurotransmitters. Google it you'll see.

As for Ginkgo, I tried it. Vinpo is such a powerfull vasodilator that it makes Ginkgo look like quackery (sorry falks!)
Vinpo works in 20 minutes, Gingko may take months or years if it works at all.

[zoolander]

Wonder something I have always challenged people with re. cerebral vasodilation is the fact that cerebral blood flow is a very highly regulated process. Why then, would any healthy individual, need a cerebral vasodilator?

[Wonder9]

Wonder something I have always challenged people with re. cerebral vasodilation is the fact that cerebral blood flow is a very highly regulated process. Why then, would any healthy individual, need a cerebral vasodilator?

For the same reason you are swollowing nootropics and are on this board zoolander.
If you'd read my previous posts, you'd know that unil a few days ago I was a 4 packs a day smoker (I quit) and that I was suffering from migraines and that for professional reason I had a sedentary life.

Vinpo made me feel in my 20's again 72 hours after ingestion, albeit small side effects that are anoying but mostly gone now.

[zoolander]

I quite often skip over details and focus on questions and answers only.