30 replies to this topic

[staceyo]

I was on SSRIs (Zoloft, Prozac) and Effexor at various times over a 12 year period. The SSRIs definitely took the edge off and made me feel more "normal"/less bitchy. Only problem is they also made me exhausted with zero libido and I gained 60 lbs. Effexor made me fat and somewhat irritable. I weaned off of everything last year (and lost 40 lbs) and was doing great, but for the last 3 months I've fallen back into depression/anxiety.

I tried Wellbutrin and for 1 week it made me very happy/horny, but that quickly turned into feeling very irritable so I quit taking it. Now I have no idea what to do. I'm taking pharmaceutical grade fish oil (high EPA - 1.5 grams) daily with a multi, maca, inositol, extra B vitamins, 5-HTP and SAM-e. I am still very moody, unmotivated, anxious and depressed. Extremely irritable most days. :( I don't want to have to go back on medication, but I'm afraid I'll have to if I can't figure out my brain issues soon.

[ajnast4r]

http://en.wikipedia....i/St._Johnswort

[staceyo]

I was thinking of St. John's Wort, thanks. I didn't know if there was any point since SAM-e and 5-HTP don't seem to do dick all for me. I thought maybe since I get tired/no libido/fat from SSRIs that I might get the same type of effects from St. John's Wort (but maybe to a lesser effect). I've also spent so much lately on supplements. lol

But these horrible mood swings (crying, irritable like I have raging PMS, bad nerves) have got to stop. I have an appointment with my pdoc but last time he suggesting augmenting Prozac with Topomax (i.e. Stupid-max). I just wish I had a "normal" brain. I get so envious of my friends and husband. They don't think twice about stuff like this and I obsess about it because it is my life.

[Lurker]

Consider asking your doctor for a combination theropy of SSRI and Modafinil. This combination is often prescribed, with the modafinil working to counteract sedating problems associated with many anti-depressents. Modafinil is said to have "mood elevating effects", and has been used off-label as an anti-depressent.

Consider going to your doctor and explaining the reocurence of "irritiability", as it maybe an issue outside of the depression.

[Yearningforyears]

Hi there =)
Do you have strong feelings of discomfort when socialising in normal condition / depressed condition (without alcohol or any other calming agent)?
It´s almost impossible to say what causes your negative self- and world image, yet still the medical community (heavily influenced by the medical industrys interest in profit) are going for the pill solution. That is somewhat starting to change with this mindfullness-trend (poor industry...). Maybe they´ll come up with a mindfullness pill soon? Many people are helped by traditional medication of course, but there are more options here.

There are so many angles of explaining depression that I become confused (or rather humble before it´s complexity). What seems as the most trivial explanation might actually be of huge importance, if it is implemented / corrected.

Think about your diet. Is it good you think?
Sleeping habits?
Physical activity?
Mindfullness (it is similar to cognitive behavioral-therarpy in many ways)

Working with these can give a lot of distress, but depression in itself creates a resistance in doing so as well.
A little tip from me here: Recovery takes time and try to do something in order to feel better, even if it feels hard. It could be the smallest thing like... buying health food because you want to have a healthy heart, even if it may feel broken now, or improve skin health. You´re going to be surprised when seeing what cocoa powder does for skin health
My depression lifted completely this friday and I haven´t been using any traditionally used medication (but rhodiola has been gaining some support lately).
best of luck! you can do this, and if you can´t... then all you can do is try again.

Edited by Nicholas, 09 April 2008 - 10:28 PM.

[abelard lindsay]

I was thinking of St. John's Wort, thanks. I didn't know if there was any point since SAM-e and 5-HTP don't seem to do dick all for me. I thought maybe since I get tired/no libido/fat from SSRIs that I might get the same type of effects from St. John's Wort (but maybe to a lesser effect). I've also spent so much lately on supplements. lol

But these horrible mood swings (crying, irritable like I have raging PMS, bad nerves) have got to stop. I have an appointment with my pdoc but last time he suggesting augmenting Prozac with Topomax (i.e. Stupid-max). I just wish I had a "normal" brain. I get so envious of my friends and husband. They don't think twice about stuff like this and I obsess about it because it is my life.

(crying, irritable like I have raging PMS, bad nerves)
Sounds like a case of bad GABA. You blow up at people, and then feel extremely sorry afterwards? You can't sleep well? You blurt things out without thinking? You lack tact? You can't keep your attention on one thing? Back and muscle aches? Prefer being alone? I'd recommend Sulbutiamine or bulk GABA + Piracetam. Especially if Sam-E (Dopamine) and 5-Htp (Serotonin) don't do anything for you. Ashwaganda and Bacopa will probably also help if you just want to go the straight herbal route. Prozac and SSRIs will just push your serotonin buttons which will just make you grumpy, but cheerful.

[staceyo]

combination theropy of SSRI and Modafinil

This is what I've done. I have an appointment with a pdoc in June :( but in the meantime, I've got this combination. I tried 2 days on Madafinil (Alertec in Canada)/Prozac. I felt good on it (50 mgs) but having a very hard time sleeping at night. Also, I seem to "crash" hard (very, very depressed later on). I don't know what is wrong with me. I think I might have rapid cycling Bipolar II or something. I alternate between feeling normal to feeling depressed/very depressed (jumping in a lake feels almost like a good idea when this hits) to feeling irritable or nervous (almost jacked up with an uncomfortable energy). I've asked for an earlier appt if they get a cancellation. Just hope I can last until then without going bonkers.

Believe me, I'd love to do this without meds (as my ever-growing supply of supplements can attest to). I'm just worried this might be beyond the natural route. I have a 5 year old...I have to get this fixed asap. I've taken GABA on and off (it helps me sleep).

Edited by staceyo, 15 April 2008 - 03:13 AM.

[ortcloud]

combination theropy of SSRI and Modafinil

This is what I've done. I have an appointment with a pdoc in June :( but in the meantime, I've got this combination. I tried 2 days on Madafinil (Alertec in Canada)/Prozac. I felt good on it (50 mgs) but having a very hard time sleeping at night. Also, I seem to "crash" hard (very, very depressed later on). I don't know what is wrong with me. I think I might have rapid cycling Bipolar II or something. I alternate between feeling normal to feeling depressed/very depressed (jumping in a lake feels almost like a good idea when this hits) to feeling irritable or nervous (almost jacked up with an uncomfortable energy). I've asked for an earlier appt if they get a cancellation. Just hope I can last until then without going bonkers.

Believe me, I'd love to do this without meds (as my ever-growing supply of supplements can attest to). I'm just worried this might be beyond the natural route. I have a 5 year old...I have to get this fixed asap. I've taken GABA on and off (it helps me sleep).

Have you considered other possibilities ? How is your health, what is your diet like ? Maybe you have some candida issues.
It could certainly give you all the symptoms you are describing. Do you have mercury fillings ? Do you eat alot of sugar ?

[Lurker]

combination theropy of SSRI and Modafinil

This is what I've done. I have an appointment with a pdoc in June :( but in the meantime, I've got this combination. I tried 2 days on Madafinil (Alertec in Canada)/Prozac. I felt good on it (50 mgs) but having a very hard time sleeping at night. Also, I seem to "crash" hard (very, very depressed later on). I don't know what is wrong with me. I think I might have rapid cycling Bipolar II or something. I alternate between feeling normal to feeling depressed/very depressed (jumping in a lake feels almost like a good idea when this hits) to feeling irritable or nervous (almost jacked up with an uncomfortable energy). I've asked for an earlier appt if they get a cancellation. Just hope I can last until then without going bonkers.

Believe me, I'd love to do this without meds (as my ever-growing supply of supplements can attest to). I'm just worried this might be beyond the natural route. I have a 5 year old...I have to get this fixed asap. I've taken GABA on and off (it helps me sleep).

You are very lucky to be able to get Generic modafinil in canada, there is no generic equivalent here in the USA, thanks to a pharmacutical monoply.


Anxiety and Depression go hand in hand, until you've experienced mania, which is basically the opposite of depression, can't be sure if you're bi-polar. It is difficult for even a doctor to tell you exactly what is wrong with you, which makes it even more difficult to treat. From experience, if you are have noticable undesirable side effects, most doctors will either try a different anti-depressant, increased dosage, or a combination therapy. The best thing you can do is be descriptive as possible to your physician about the undesirable side effects and potential alternatives.

edit: and yes, consider the possibility that aspects of your depression/anxiety may be the result of something else: PMS, vitamin/mineral deficits, etc.

Edited by Lurker, 15 April 2008 - 04:46 AM.

[lynx]

1 week is not enough time for wellbutrin. The edge wears off over time.

[stargazer]

A combination of a stimulant (ritalin, adderall, modafinil) and a SSRI is the way to go.

[staceyo]

Have you considered other possibilities ? How is your health, what is your diet like ? Maybe you have some candida issues.
It could certainly give you all the symptoms you are describing. Do you have mercury fillings ? Do you eat alot of sugar ?

I used to have a very crappy diet (sugar, simple carbs). Now my diet is good. Fresh fruit/veggies/lean protein, raw chocolate, kefir, wheatgrass, blueberries, no simple carbs. Pharmaceutical grade fish oil (1.5 grams of EPA) plus lots of other supplements. I'm down 40 lbs. I also take digestive enzymes and probiotics everyday.

I have mercury fillings unfortunately. No clue what to do about that. I guess I'd have to pay to get them replaced.

A combination of a stimulant (ritalin, adderall, modafinil) and a SSRI is the way to go.

I'm taking an SSRI and modafinil, so I guess I'll stick with it for a while to see if it helps.

[ortcloud]

Have you considered other possibilities ? How is your health, what is your diet like ? Maybe you have some candida issues.
It could certainly give you all the symptoms you are describing. Do you have mercury fillings ? Do you eat alot of sugar ?

I used to have a very crappy diet (sugar, simple carbs). Now my diet is good. Fresh fruit/veggies/lean protein, raw chocolate, kefir, wheatgrass, blueberries, no simple carbs. Pharmaceutical grade fish oil (1.5 grams of EPA) plus lots of other supplements. I'm down 40 lbs. I also take digestive enzymes and probiotics everyday.

I have mercury fillings unfortunately. No clue what to do about that. I guess I'd have to pay to get them replaced.

Wow, thats a pretty radical shift in diet, good for you. Most people arent able to make that kind
of change. So what prompted it, did you suspect candida ? So do you feel better after doing this ?
Mercury fillings can fuel candida amongst other things. Some people have had all of their problems
fade away after getting their mercury out, just google it and you will find endless stories of people
that have had their problems resolve after doing this.

Have you looked at or considered it being a hormone issue ? Do you take any calcium d glucarate
or DIM. Have you ever tried GLA ie. borage oil. I have seen dramatic shifts in women who have
mood disorders and tried these supplements.

[staceyo]

I got pregnant in December (planned) and had unbelievable anxiety/depression start right away (must be something hormonal...I also had bad PPD with my first child). I ended up having a miscarriage. That put my into a state of anxiety/depression and my appetite was literally gone. Since I wasn't hungry or craving anything, I just started making myself eat healthy things. I haven't touched sugar/white flour since then and I have no desire for it. It is very weird...I have no real appetite anymore, which is fine by me. I gained a ton of weight on SSRIs and am now taking it off. I guess I feel better. I feels awesome to be thinner. I have tons more energy (probably a combination of anxiety and the fact that I wasn't on an SSRI for months). I'm not sluggish anymore. But overall I am not great...I feel out of control with these mood swings and depression. I've had suicidal ideology, which is so stupid and not me.

I take CLA but haven't tried GLA (Evening Primrose Oil?). I'll try that. I do take GABA. It probably has a lot to do with hormones. I am low in progesterone and take bio-identical replacement progesterone 2 weeks/month. I don't think I take DIM...not sure what it is. I'll Google it. I'll also look into the mercury stuff. Gah! Nothing is ever easy.

[ortcloud]

I got pregnant in December (planned) and had unbelievable anxiety/depression start right away (must be something hormonal...I also had bad PPD with my first child). I ended up having a miscarriage. That put my into a state of anxiety/depression and my appetite was literally gone. Since I wasn't hungry or craving anything, I just started making myself eat healthy things. I haven't touched sugar/white flour since then and I have no desire for it. It is very weird...I have no real appetite anymore, which is fine by me. I gained a ton of weight on SSRIs and am now taking it off. I guess I feel better. I feels awesome to be thinner. I have tons more energy (probably a combination of anxiety and the fact that I wasn't on an SSRI for months). I'm not sluggish anymore. But overall I am not great...I feel out of control with these mood swings and depression. I've had suicidal ideology, which is so stupid and not me.

I take CLA but haven't tried GLA (Evening Primrose Oil?). I'll try that. I do take GABA. It probably has a lot to do with hormones. I am low in progesterone and take bio-identical replacement progesterone 2 weeks/month. I don't think I take DIM...not sure what it is. I'll Google it. I'll also look into the mercury stuff. Gah! Nothing is ever easy.

primrose oil has GLA in it. Borage oil has a more potent concentration of gla though. It can def help those with some hormonal fluctuations.
You may want to look into calcium d glucarate. Often if you have some dysbiosis or bad gut bacteria they can produce beta glucuronidase
and deconjugate and thus reabsorb your estrogen and make it difficult for your body to excrete estrogen and your levels will rise and wreak
havoc on your mood. Mercury can lead to this bad gut bacteria situation to. I do see that you take kefir and probiotics. Did you ever have gut
problems, candida ? There are tests you can take if you want to check your beta glucuronidase levels but often you can tell if you feel better on it.
The dim will help metabolize bad estrogens into good estrogens. Life extension has a urine test to check your ratio. You mentioned your
progesterone was low, did you get it checked if so did you get your estrogen levels checked.

[Ben Simon]

This is, in my opinion, a potentially dangerous topic of discussion. The person to talk about meds with is your doctor, not a bunch of randoms on the internet.

If you have a regular doctor then they should be able to evaluate your problems and your past reactions to medications in such a way as to help you. The people here don't know you, are certainly not in a therepeatic relationship with you, and evidently some of them have a bias against prescribed medication.

My advice is to always take these matters up with your doctor. It's not for any of the people on this thread to tell you what medication you should be on or not on.

Edited by ben, 15 April 2008 - 08:20 PM.

[staceyo]

This is, in my opinion, a potentially dangerous topic of discussion. The person to talk about meds with is your doctor, not a bunch of randoms on the internet.

If you have a regular doctor then they should be able to evaluate your problems and your past reactions to medications in such a way as to help you. The people here don't know you, are certainly not in a therepeatic relationship with you, and evidently some of them have a bias against prescribed medication.

My advice is to always take these matters up with your doctor. It's not for any of the people on this thread to tell you what medication you should be on or not on.

I am waiting to see my doctor but can't get in for many weeks. I'm just looking for some self-help ideas in the meantime because I'm a mess.

[Ben Simon]

I'm very sorry to hear that.

All the same, the best advice I can give you is to take any and all of the things you hear in this thread with a grain of salt. Self help is one thing. Advice on specific medications to use is another.

I would also encourage you against 'weaning off' your medication, as you put it, unless you are doing so in consultation with your doctor and after seeking their advice. This may have been the course you took, but I thought it best to mention it, as it's a common mistake people who are in some way feeling better make. They think they don't need their meds anymore, are put off by some of the less desirable side effects, and then go off them to negative effect.

Hang in there. I hope you get to see your doctor soon.

[ortcloud]

I'm very sorry to hear that.

All the same, the best advice I can give you is to take any and all of the things you hear in this thread with a grain of salt. Self help is one thing. Advice on specific medications to use is another.

I would also encourage you against 'weaning off' your medication, as you put it, unless you are doing so in consultation with your doctor and after seeking their advice. This may have been the course you took, but I thought it best to mention it, as it's a common mistake people who are in some way feeling better make. They think they don't need their meds anymore, are put off by some of the less desirable side effects, and then go off them to negative effect.

Hang in there. I hope you get to see your doctor soon.

So you think we shouldnt discuss medication or supplements ? Well then you are in the wrong forum Ben !

Your account is 4 days old and this is your first post in this group and you have the nerve to post this garbage ?
I take it your comment about a bias against medication was directed towards me offering supplement advice.
So I will respond by saying that maybe you should read the title of the topic for this thread. Stacey asked for
supplement advice, she didnt ask for medication advice. If this is your idea of a contribution to this forum, I
dont think you will find yourself very welcome here by other members.

[Ben Simon]

Ortcloud,

I am sorry to hear that you had so strong a reaction to my post. It was not my intention to offend you or anyone else.

However, I must say that I am shocked by your response, which I took to be needlessly hostile. I think that communication through web forums can sometimes cause people to lose sight of how they would normally treat people in socialised society. I don't expect you would speak to anyone like that face to face, and think I should be entitled to expect the same of you here, as you should of me.

For the record I did not indicate the opinion that people ought not discuss medication or supplements, whether on this board or elsewhere. My comments pertained to this particular thread, in which the specific context is of a person having gone off medication prescribed to them for anxiety and depressive illness. It is unsafe for anyone in that position to receive advice on alternative medications or supplements from anyone other than their doctor. This should not be taken as an unusual thing for me to say, and it's certainly not 'garbage' as you put it. It's basic medical and ethical common sense.

Quote: "I take it your comment about a bias against medication was directed towards me offering supplement advice."

I'm not sure where you got this from. From memory my comments on such bias were related to points made about the corporate prescription drug culture and it's impact upon prescribing doctors, which is a very serious allegation to make against any member of the medical profession. To make it in a generalised sense indicates bias in my view.

I should also add that while it's true that my previous post was my first in the section of the site I don't see how my total post count should have any impaact on the content of what I have to say. I expressed a view that I thought was relevant to the conversation and to an individuals safety. As I said, the intent was not to offend and it's regrettable if offense has been the outcome.

I stand by comments.

[Lurker]

There is a Disclaimer posted at the top of this forum for this reason.

Recommendations in this thread were made to (hopefully), facilitate communication with the OP's doctor.

[ortcloud]

Ortcloud,

I am sorry to hear that you had so strong a reaction to my post. It was not my intention to offend you or anyone else.

However, I must say that I am shocked by your response, which I took to be needlessly hostile. I think that communication through web forums can sometimes cause people to lose sight of how they would normally treat people in socialised society. I don't expect you would speak to anyone like that face to face, and think I should be entitled to expect the same of you here, as you should of me.

For the record I did not indicate the opinion that people ought not discuss medication or supplements, whether on this board or elsewhere. My comments pertained to this particular thread, in which the specific context is of a person having gone off medication prescribed to them for anxiety and depressive illness. It is unsafe for anyone in that position to receive advice on alternative medications or supplements from anyone other than their doctor. This should not be taken as an unusual thing for me to say, and it's certainly not 'garbage' as you put it. It's basic medical and ethical common sense.

Quote: "I take it your comment about a bias against medication was directed towards me offering supplement advice."

I'm not sure where you got this from. From memory my comments on such bias were related to points made about the corporate prescription drug culture and it's impact upon prescribing doctors, which is a very serious allegation to make against any member of the medical profession. To make it in a generalised sense indicates bias in my view.

I should also add that while it's true that my previous post was my first in the section of the site I don't see how my total post count should have any impaact on the content of what I have to say. I expressed a view that I thought was relevant to the conversation and to an individuals safety. As I said, the intent was not to offend and it's regrettable if offense has been the outcome.

I stand by comments.

From your memory ? just read your post. You said:

"evidently some of them have a bias against prescribed medication. "
and "to always take these matters up with your doctor. It's not for any of the people on this thread to tell you what medication you should be on or not on."

Are you in the medical profession or just a tool ?

[FunkOdyssey]

Are you in the medical profession or just a tool ?

Stop with the hostility. The opinions expressed by Ben in this thread may or may not be unpopular but that is no excuse for name-calling. He makes a good point about speaking to one another as you would face to face (in a respectful manner).

[Ben Simon]

Are you in the medical profession or just a tool ?

Stop with the hostility. The opinions expressed by Ben in this thread may or may not be unpopular but that is no excuse for name-calling. He makes a good point about speaking to one another as you would face to face (in a respectful manner).

Thanks FunkOdyssey.

[Ben Simon]

There is a Disclaimer posted at the top of this forum for this reason.

Recommendations in this thread were made to (hopefully), facilitate communication with the OP's doctor.

Thanks for that Lurker. I had missed it.

[Yearningforyears]

You mention that you suspect being bi-polar. SSRI´s can induce a manic episode (sam-e can induce mania I´ve read on some pages. do a google search)
I remember watching that stephen fry / bipolar-documentary, in which a doctor talked about her own manic depression. (she couldn´t recommend fish oil enough)
If you haven´t told your doctor about your bipolarity then do it straight away.
Perhaps you´ve got medicine for the wrong diagnosis... (treating the depressive episode only, and leaving you defenceless to the other part).
There are more mood stabilizers out there than lithium by the way. Gosh... I feel like an idiot giving advice, since probably being bipolar myself and never having touched modern drugs...

Summary: You seek help because you feel like crap and can´t function. After getting SSRI a new problems arise. You became irritable / angry / wanting to crawl out of your own skin- sensation (I got that skin feeling when on sam-e sometimes. I then took the mood stabilizer valerian and. after a while I quit sam-e). So becoming like that creates an overstimulated you, which ironically, creates the same problem (although different in behavior) you had when seeking help for depressive symptoms.
The inability to function the way you think is normal / productive / loving and supportive.
Are you afraid of being put on mood stabilizers, thinking that the will turn you into a zombie? Maybe I have misunderstood the whole thing about you not telling the doc about the whole spectrum of your mood fluctuations.

But one other thing worth thinking about. We have the right to have feelings hell even the most crazy lunatic ones known to man! What defines us as crazy is our surroundings.
Our surroundings is: Media, society and family among others.
Lifting a long depression is not only stopping the sadness. It´s beginning a new life and that can be confusing to say the least. A part of your irritability might be because your depression has begun to subside, and you start making demands (though sometimes feeling like a bitch about doing so).

[ortcloud]

Are you in the medical profession or just a tool ?

Stop with the hostility. The opinions expressed by Ben in this thread may or may not be unpopular but that is no excuse for name-calling. He makes a good point about speaking to one another as you would face to face (in a respectful manner).

Name calling ? the tool comment ? I consider name calling to be saying something ambigous like jerk, ass, idiot etc. Maybe I should clarify that the word "tool" means to me someone who has a blind allegiance to some group, typically by being manipulated by this group without their knowledge for benefit of the groups agenda. Thus they are a "tool" to the groups agenda.

[Shepard]

Maybe I should clarify that the word "tool" means to me someone who has a blind allegiance to some group, typically by being manipulated by this group without their knowledge for benefit of the groups agenda. Thus they are a "tool" to the groups agenda.

Thus, a person lacking the mental capacity to realize the situation.

However, I will accept "jive sucka".

[Ben Simon]

It's true, I am the medical establishment's jive sucka.

[graatch]

staceyo, you might have better log on the dr-bob psychobabble forums:

www.dr-bob.org/babble

Apparently the people here aren't either knowledgeable or mature enough.