39 replies to this topic

[Wandering Jew]

I don't understand why so many people go through tons of trouble to become immortals. Isn't there an afterlife? Or not?
Aren't you immortalists afraid of ever missing out on Heaven etc? What if there is a heaven ... after all?
Are you atheists? Is it too big of a risk?
Do you think it is really possible to live forever? Do you want to create a heaven on earth?

Edited by Wandering Jew, 20 April 2008 - 04:18 AM.

[cyborgdreamer]

I don't understand why so many people go through tons of trouble to become immortals. Isn't there an afterlife? Or not?
Aren't you immortalists afraid of ever missing out on Heaven etc?

Do you think it is really possible to live forever? Do you want to create a heaven on earth?

Given what we know about neuroscience, it appears that everything that makes us who we are is in our brain. It doesn't seem likely that there could be any soul that goes anywhere after death. Of course, it's possible that there could be an afterlife but I wouldn't bet my existence on it.

[niner]

Welcome to imminst! I guess you just wandered in... I don't expect there to be an afterlife. I don't expect to live forever at this point in time, so who knows, maybe I'll be surprised. I'm not counting on it, though. It's not possible to live forever at this moment. It is probably possible to extend your lifespan some; the best thing I'm aware of is caloric restriction, which I might do in the future but don't do now. By doing the right things, we can reduce our odds of getting common diseases, but not eliminate them entirely. As science learns more about our molecular biology, it should become possible to treat and/or cure more disease, and to extend lifespan. Eventually it should be possible to repair the damage of aging and to reduce or someday maybe eliminate death due to "old age". If this doesn't happen soon enough for you, cryonics is another option. Having a heaven on earth would be great. I have to admit that I'm not doing as much as I could to create one. I suppose we'd have to decide what it would be.

[Heliotrope]

i don't want to ever die. that's why i want to be immortal. there is almost certainly no heaven , only oblivion. if i die, that's it, game over.

[forever freedom]

I don't understand why so many people go through tons of trouble to become immortals. Isn't there an afterlife? Or not?
Aren't you immortalists afraid of ever missing out on Heaven etc? What if there is a heaven ... after all?
Are you atheists? Is it too big of a risk?
Do you think it is really possible to live forever? Do you want to create a heaven on earth?

I do want to create heaven on earth. Then if i happen to die, and there is an afterlife, all the better.

I have more chances of stopping from being conscious if i try it twice; once alive on earth, and if i fail, that is, if i die, then i'll still have another shot with the afterlife.


Ah and there's also cryonics. That makes my chances of radically extending my "consciousness time" increase threefold, comparing to the chances of a person who just believes in the afterlife and doesn't do anything to remain alive for as much as possible on earth.

Edited by sam988, 20 April 2008 - 07:33 AM.

[jonano]

"Ah and there's also cryonics. That makes my chances of radically extending my "consciousness time" increase threefold"

Sam Sam Sam Sam.

You must understand the cryonics topic more. If they revive you, they will revive you when they will be sure you are immortal. Physically Immortal. Not biologically Immortal.

Well I hope this is the goal of Alcor. Not to revive you sooner, but later, when everything is sure.

I would not personally be born again, in a mortal state.

Well I hope this is what cryonics is. If not then I miss something.

--jon

[forever freedom]

"Ah and there's also cryonics. That makes my chances of radically extending my "consciousness time" increase threefold"

Sam Sam Sam Sam.

You must understand the cryonics topic more. If they revive you, they will revive you when they will be sure you are immortal. Physically Immortal. Not biologically Immortal.

Well I hope this is the goal of Alcor. Not to revive you sooner, but later, when everything is sure.

I would not personally be born again, in a mortal state.

Well I hope this is what cryonics is. If not then I miss something.

--jon

It's impossible to be physically immortal, at least in any foreseeable future. There will be always the chance that something may go wrong, that there can be an accident.

[Shannon Vyff]

Yeah, we have the heat death of our Earth due to our aging sun to deal with, and the collapse of our universe (not to mention the merging of our galaxy with Andromeda in 2 1/2 billion years)

We simply have no idea if we can ever attain immortality, perhaps if there are parallel universes

On the religious take, sure I'm a cryonicist and if I wake up in heaven instead of on Earth after being re-animated, then I'll be just as happy I teach religion, am religious and feel I've done enough good in this world, and for God--that I'd end up in heaven, or Vishnu's take. Now, if it is the Buddhist take that we are all immortal now, by being a part of everything, our cells etc., then it also doesn't matter--I may get more time with my own consciousness in the future if I'm re-animated from cryonic preservation, or not.

Wandering Jew--there have been some Jewish perspectives of cryonics, even how to address the funeral of a Jewish cryonicist once. Alcor's FAQ has some religious perspectives: http://www.alcor.org/FAQs/index.html

[Cyberbrain]

I don't understand why so many people go through tons of trouble to become immortals.

I don't think people go through tons of trouble to become immortal, because it's not possible yet.

Yes there cryonics and Calorie Restriction dieting, but these only give you a chance at immortality, they don't make you immortal.

Isn't there an afterlife? Or not?

We don't know if there's an afterlife. No body does, not even you.

Just because someone believes in something doesn't make it true. And just because someone doesn't believe in something doesn't make it false.

Aren't you immortalists afraid of ever missing out on Heaven etc? What if there is a heaven ... after all?

If there is a Heaven thats great! Aside from some philosophical problems as to why heaven should even exist in the first place, we're perfectly happy here for the time being.

Is it too big of a risk?

BINGO!

Dying is just too big of risk because there is an exact 50/50 chance that either an afterlife exists or it doesn't. We just love life too much to give it up to oblivion.

Do you think it is really possible to live forever? Do you want to create a heaven on earth?

Yes and yes. Well, we'd like to expand throughout the cosmos one day because Earth won't be here forever.

[Cyberbrain]

Well, immortalism falls under the umbrella of a much larger philosophy called transhumanism.

The personal transhumanist philosophy I espouse can also be condensed into the three most important corresponding areas of any philosophical system: metaphysics, psychology and ethics. These can also be stated as: what is the nature of the world, the nature of humans, and what is the best way to live? The view that I uphold in correspondence to these three areas is that the world is expanding toward evermore complex structures, forms, and operations; that as conscious life we are imbued with an inborn instinctive drive to expand our abilities in pursuit of ever increasing survivability and well-being. Thus it is in our greatest interest to foster this drive by continually striving to expand our capacities throughout life and therefore by acting in harmony with the essential nature of the evolutionary process we may one day discover a new sense of purpose, direction and meaning.

[Cyberbrain]

Btw, welcome to Imminst Wandering Jew!

Edited by Kostas, 20 April 2008 - 09:35 PM.

[vyntager]

Welcome Ewige Jude. I'd bet quite a few people here would be more than willing to be "in your shoes". Because for them immortality is full of hope and promise, not in any way a form of retribution.

Aren't you immortalists afraid of ever missing out on Heaven etc?

What we're told of Heaven isn't that appealing actually. It probably was, a few millenia upto a few centuries ago. It was shaped to meet people's expectations of an ecstatic, paradisiacal life back then. For instance, a similar case would be :

Cockaigne or Cockayne (pronounced /kɒˈkeɪn/) is a mythical medieval land of plenty, where all the harshness of medieval peasant life does not exist.

"the houses were made of barley sugar and cakes, the streets were paved with pastry, and the shops supplied goods for nothing."
"roasted pigs wander about with knives in their backs to make carving easy, where grilled geese fly directly into one's mouth, where cooked fish jump out of the water and land at one's feet."

See, I'm not tempted to eat pastry that people would walk upon, and the idea of having roasted undead animals with pieces of cutlery protruding from their corpses, wandering around, frankly freaks me.

Early visions of Heaven, such as New Jerusalem, or the Garden of Eden, are just as out of date nowadays, they don't meet people's expectations anymore. Yet we can't ditch and replace them with modernized versions of Heaven altogether. The result is a growing discrepancy. Heaven just doesn't look as attractive as it did, and this trend will probably be carried on as time goes, because of the necessity to keep the traditional view, to not shatter dogma, whereas that view isn't fitting anymore.

Do you think it is really possible to live forever? Do you want to create a heaven on earth?

Depends, what do you call heaven here ? Immortalists and transhumanists are not longing for the Garden of Eden of old, we're not gnostics or anything like that.
We want to live our lifes to the best of their possibilities. We want to be happy, or to live in a world that we'd like to live in, inasmuch as possible. How we define that world has, however, nothing to do with our will to duplicate Heaven on earth. Specifically, we don't plan to recreate what is seen as "God's Heaven" on earth. Because that heaven is not exactly what we want, nor is it even a decent description of what our future could, and should be like.

What if there is a heaven ... after all?

What if there is ?

[cyborgdreamer]

Dying is just too big of risk because there is an exact 50/50 chance that either an afterlife exists or it doesn't. We just love life too much to give it up to oblivion.

Actually, given the evidence and Occam's razor, I'd say there's much less than a 50% chance of an afterlife.

[Heliotrope]

Dying is just too big of risk because there is an exact 50/50 chance that either an afterlife exists or it doesn't. We just love life too much to give it up to oblivion.

Actually, given the evidence and Occam's razor, I'd say there's much less than a 50% chance of an afterlife.

i agree , i thnk there is a close to 0% chance

[Cyberbrain]

Dying is just too big of risk because there is an exact 50/50 chance that either an afterlife exists or it doesn't. We just love life too much to give it up to oblivion.

Actually, given the evidence and Occam's razor, I'd say there's much less than a 50% chance of an afterlife.

i agree , i thnk there is a close to 0% chance

Well I was trying to be fair. In the same way we can not tell if we're living in a simulation/matrix/truman show/etc, the same way we can not tell if there is an afterlife or a universe were our conscious continues to exist after death. All we know of reality is what we perceive through our 5 senses, the rest we interpret it. I'm a hard core materialist/atheist but like a true man of science, I always always leave room for uncertainty. For one can never have 100% certainty in nature. 100% certainty only exists in mathematics.

[niner]

Dying is just too big of risk because there is an exact 50/50 chance that either an afterlife exists or it doesn't. We just love life too much to give it up to oblivion.

Actually, given the evidence and Occam's razor, I'd say there's much less than a 50% chance of an afterlife.

i agree , i thnk there is a close to 0% chance

Well I was trying to be fair. In the same way we can not tell if we're living in a simulation/matrix/truman show/etc, the same way we can not tell if there is an afterlife or a universe were our conscious continues to exist after death. All we know of reality is what we perceive through our 5 senses, the rest we interpret it. I'm a hard core materialist/atheist but like a true man of science, I always always leave room for uncertainty. For one can never have 100% certainty in nature. 100% certainty only exists in mathematics.

Kostas, I've been arguing with Nefastor about the exact same thing as this. If we don't know if an event will happen or not, does that mean that we should apply a 50% probability to each outcome? For example, I don't know whether or not if tomorrow morning, a fluorescent purple bird will or will not fly up my butt. Still, I'm pretty confident in applying a probability to that event that is a lot less than 50%. Likewise, I think that we can be fair and leave room for uncertainty, and say that the probability of an afterlife is, for example, small but non-zero.

[JonesGuy]

So, did it happen!?!

[Cyberbrain]

Kostas, I've been arguing with Nefastor about the exact same thing as this. If we don't know if an event will happen or not, does that mean that we should apply a 50% probability to each outcome? For example, I don't know whether or not if tomorrow morning, a fluorescent purple bird will or will not fly up my butt. Still, I'm pretty confident in applying a probability to that event that is a lot less than 50%. Likewise, I think that we can be fair and leave room for uncertainty, and say that the probability of an afterlife is, for example, small but non-zero.

I'm not exactly an expert in probability and statistics, and I'm sure the chance of an afterlife existing is less then 50% (but more then 0% ... probably "tending" or "approaching" to zero ).

But I think there is a thoery or philosophy that says due to uncertainty in nature, everything has a 50/50 chance of occuring ...

either there is an afterlife or there isn't
either the sun is going to come up tomorrow morning or it isn't
either I'm going to get an A on my exam, or I won't
and so forth

It's a very weird theory and I don't really like it, but I applied it to the afterlife paradigm because due to the lack of evidence on either side of the argument, it's very hard to tip the balance beam one way or the other ... don't get me wrong, it might be possible to tip the scale, but I'm too lazy to do it ... even with all the theories we have in science, who's to say our entire lives aren't just an illusion, and everything we know about the world is exactly what "they" want us to think? ... lol, I get very epistemological sometimes

[niner]

But I think there is a thoery or philosophy that says due to uncertainty in nature, everything has a 50/50 chance of occuring ...

I think that the number of consecutive days in which the sun has comes up kind of blows this theory...

So, did it happen!?!

Darn the luck, no. I'm still waiting. Maybe tomorrow?

[Heliotrope]

Darn the luck, no. I'm still waiting. Maybe tomorrow?

if you wait an eternity , every combo of possibilities may happen.
so maybe then a purple bird will fly up your _________?


j/k

[Shepard]

But I think there is a thoery or philosophy that says due to uncertainty in nature, everything has a 50/50 chance of occuring ...

I think that the number of consecutive days in which the sun has comes up kind of blows this theory...

Which means it's bound to happen sometime. So, in a week or two....that suckers gotta go.

[Wandering Jew]

despite what you all say, I'll be relieved to die some day



Proud to die a mortal

[Shannon Vyff]

I at times would welcome death, and am sure I will some day as well I feel it is inevitable to have to die, so I'll be proud to have lived as long as I got to live, whether that is tomorrow, a few decades, or vastly longer

[Cyberbrain]

despite what you all say, I'll be relieved to die some day



Proud to die a mortal

Well even with technology, curing aging, etc ... we'll always be mortal, theres no guarantee that anyone will live forever, we're just trying to buy more time.

But what if you're wrong, what if indeed there is no God or afterlife ... death might seem meaningless then, but you would have missed out on life.

Edited by Kostas, 22 April 2008 - 06:28 PM.

[Shannon Vyff]

God might be disappointed in those that did not stay on Earth longer to do more good for him (or would favor those, that did...)

[forever freedom]

About the idea that "i know i'll die some day", i refuse to have it. I may be being illogical but i really don't have this feeling that even some people here do that they'll eventually die. I think of my future and what i see is endlessness.

Edited by sam988, 23 April 2008 - 03:36 AM.

[niner]

About the idea that "i know i'll die some day", i refuse to have it. I may be being illogical but i really don't have this feeling that even some people here do that they'll eventually die. I think of my future and what i see is endlessness.

I'll hazard a guess and say that you are under the age of 25. Enjoy!

[yoyo]

Live fast, die young, and leave a beautiful corpse.

[JonesGuy]

People are more than allowed to let themselves die. It's your life. The trick is just that you're not allowed to force other people to die in the process.

[JamesMGallagher]

The mind can't comprehend concepts of afterlife as it is material, therefore there is no way of knowing... but surely we must have come from something, not just nothingness, but if we had why would the "creator" be so cruel as to not give us even an incling as to what we had come from, so we would not live our lives in fear of the shadow of death... then again cruel is a human notion which can't really be placed upon such things, just doesn't work...

life is a contradiction