15 replies to this topic

[abolitionist]

Looking at the product pipeline for many drug companies - it's clear that they are generally motivated to produce products that will remain needed in the future and reliably generate income for the company - a Capitalistic design provides this motivational factor.

Solutions and cures may command a high price but are not as lucrative over the long run. Businesses that produce true cures quickly become obsolete.

So what kind of businesses will be motivated to produce cures and true solutions for the human experience?

1. Clearly profit motivated businesses will not

2. Religious organizations do not want to make their religions obsolete by curing aging, suffering, death, etc...

3. Non-profit or philanthropic organizations are limited by governmental regulations driven by religious theories and power/profit motive within culture.

Somewhere, an over-riding ethical directive must come into play to keep Darwinians from simply trying to dominate each other for personal gain until we can change our genetic design. We must keep in mind that humans are content to be dominant even if their dominance hurts others and the future of humanity - history has proven this undeniably.

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So who is going to cure aging, defeat death, eliminate suffering, redesign our bodies so that we are increasingly self-sufficient and pollution neutral?

What Darwinian would be motivated?

Edited by abolitionist, 28 April 2008 - 01:22 PM.

[abolitionist]

http://www.ahrp.org/...logsection/0/9/

[mentatpsi]

http://www.ahrp.org/...logsection/0/9/

I like this one: Medical Prostitution: Doctors On the Take--Minnesora an example, NYT

Anyways, I really don't know how far the ambition of immortality will go towards the general public...

[Anaxim]

3. Non-profit or philanthropic organizations are limited by governmental regulations driven by religious theories and power/profit motive within culture.

Government religious motives are more likely in the US than the world as whole, though. Witness the passing of a bill allowing hybrid stem cells in the UK, for example.

[niner]

Solutions and cures may command a high price but are not as lucrative over the long run. Businesses that produce true cures quickly become obsolete.

So what kind of businesses will be motivated to produce cures and true solutions for the human experience?

1. Clearly profit motivated businesses will not

So who is going to cure aging, defeat death, eliminate suffering, redesign our bodies so that we are increasingly self-sufficient and pollution neutral?

Curing aging and defeating death is very unlikely to be a one shot cure. It will probably be done with treatments that will be required over and over again. Someone could make a lot of money on that. Look at TA Sciences with their telomere extension treatment- $25 grand for that and it's not even clear yet that it does all that much. Once someone has a treatment that really works, they will be able to name their price.

Also bear in mind the Longevity Dividend. That is going to be an inducement for societies to implement life extension; it will save them money.

[abolitionist]

Solutions and cures may command a high price but are not as lucrative over the long run. Businesses that produce true cures quickly become obsolete.

So what kind of businesses will be motivated to produce cures and true solutions for the human experience?

1. Clearly profit motivated businesses will not

So who is going to cure aging, defeat death, eliminate suffering, redesign our bodies so that we are increasingly self-sufficient and pollution neutral?

Curing aging and defeating death is very unlikely to be a one shot cure. It will probably be done with treatments that will be required over and over again. Someone could make a lot of money on that. Look at TA Sciences with their telomere extension treatment- $25 grand for that and it's not even clear yet that it does all that much. Once someone has a treatment that really works, they will be able to name their price.

Also bear in mind the Longevity Dividend. That is going to be an inducement for societies to implement life extension; it will save them money.

that's exactly my point.

you think a business will develope a cure rather than a treatment that is expensive and must be used over and over again?

businesses are for profit - not solutions or helping the people become more self-sufficient

We need an unprecedented network of non-profits working on all the different aspests of aging.

Edited by abolitionist, 17 May 2008 - 04:35 PM.

[niner]

Solutions and cures may command a high price but are not as lucrative over the long run. Businesses that produce true cures quickly become obsolete.

So what kind of businesses will be motivated to produce cures and true solutions for the human experience?

1. Clearly profit motivated businesses will not

So who is going to cure aging, defeat death, eliminate suffering, redesign our bodies so that we are increasingly self-sufficient and pollution neutral?

Curing aging and defeating death is very unlikely to be a one shot cure. It will probably be done with treatments that will be required over and over again. Someone could make a lot of money on that. Look at TA Sciences with their telomere extension treatment- $25 grand for that and it's not even clear yet that it does all that much. Once someone has a treatment that really works, they will be able to name their price.

Also bear in mind the Longevity Dividend. That is going to be an inducement for societies to implement life extension; it will save them money.

that's exactly my point.

you think a business will develope a cure rather than a treatment that is expensive and must be used over and over again?

businesses are for profit - not solutions or helping the people become more self-sufficient

We need an unprecedented network of non-profits working on all the different aspests of aging.

I don't think a "cure" for aging is possible. I think that with the appropriate treatments, we could live a very long time, but without utterly transforming the vehicles of our consciousness, damage will always accrue and need to be repaired. I think that is baked into the physics of the situation and has little if anything to do with capitalism. I suspect that we can count on capitalism to bring us the treatments that we need, someday. I think that with appropriate government funding of certain kinds of basic research, we could get there a lot faster.

[abolitionist]

I don't think a "cure" for aging is possible. I think that with the appropriate treatments, we could live a very long time, but without utterly transforming the vehicles of our consciousness, damage will always accrue and need to be repaired. I think that is baked into the physics of the situation and has little if anything to do with capitalism. I suspect that we can count on capitalism to bring us the treatments that we need, someday. I think that with appropriate government funding of certain kinds of basic research, we could get there a lot faster.

true we'll always need something, or will we?

is it possible through genetic engineering to create truly self-sufficient and immortal beings?

it's disturbing that many businesses want to keep people addicted to their products - that's the problem with profit motive

it puts businesses against human interest in the long term

look at the pharma industry - they don't make drugs to prevent disease from ever happening (in general) - most drugs are designed to be taken long term and generate a profit

now maybe you could make a one time treatment that would be profitable - but this would also require a market monopoly to some degree as someone else could just come along and do it cheaper

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we want these solutions to be cheap and freely available to all who want/need them - not subject to the game of market supply and demand

Edited by abolitionist, 18 May 2008 - 01:26 AM.

[mentatpsi]

Abolitionist:
What you're talking about is a complete reinvention of mankind... however the extent at which would really override rationality. Most businesses aren't motivated to help out people, their motivations is as you said making a profit, and it generally works because the people to some extent will influence and follow the market.

Now, Big pharma isn't completely responsible for people's pill taking, it's the people's desire for the quick fix rather than any other form of treatment. It's also the general ignorance towards investigations and critical thinking to figure out alternatives rather than the status quo of relaying on biased information. It's no different than blaming some television network of making you sit on your couch eating snacks while watching your favorite show...

It would be wiser to adapt to this system and figure out ways of slightly engineering than to ask for a complete redefinition of man... because if corporations really got what they wanted we'd have a borg type (star trek) civilization rather than this ideal we have for transhumanism.

As for immortality, we as a populace will only see a fraction of what's possible, because lets face it we have a scarcity of resources and weren't intended to live indefinitely without some very revolutionary type technologies and societies in place. How can anyone guarantee the unbiased nature of those overseeing such an operation?

Edited by mysticpsi, 21 May 2008 - 09:36 AM.

[forever freedom]

I don't think a "cure" for aging is possible. I think that with the appropriate treatments, we could live a very long time, but without utterly transforming the vehicles of our consciousness, damage will always accrue and need to be repaired. I think that is baked into the physics of the situation and has little if anything to do with capitalism. I suspect that we can count on capitalism to bring us the treatments that we need, someday. I think that with appropriate government funding of certain kinds of basic research, we could get there a lot faster.

true we'll always need something, or will we?

is it possible through genetic engineering to create truly self-sufficient and immortal beings?

it's disturbing that many businesses want to keep people addicted to their products - that's the problem with profit motive

it puts businesses against human interest in the long term

look at the pharma industry - they don't make drugs to prevent disease from ever happening (in general) - most drugs are designed to be taken long term and generate a profit

now maybe you could make a one time treatment that would be profitable - but this would also require a market monopoly to some degree as someone else could just come along and do it cheaper

----------

we want these solutions to be cheap and freely available to all who want/need them - not subject to the game of market supply and demand

Humans aren't perfect and without a drive for profits/personal gain the system of production would become very inneficient. What's better, to have the pharma industry that does focus on generating profits but also finds cures for many diseases or another system where we have to trust in the human altruism and sense of community? I'd rather keep the former.

[VictorBjoerk]

Solutions and cures may command a high price but are not as lucrative over the long run. Businesses that produce true cures quickly become obsolete.

So what kind of businesses will be motivated to produce cures and true solutions for the human experience?

1. Clearly profit motivated businesses will not

So who is going to cure aging, defeat death, eliminate suffering, redesign our bodies so that we are increasingly self-sufficient and pollution neutral?

Curing aging and defeating death is very unlikely to be a one shot cure. It will probably be done with treatments that will be required over and over again. Someone could make a lot of money on that. Look at TA Sciences with their telomere extension treatment- $25 grand for that and it's not even clear yet that it does all that much. Once someone has a treatment that really works, they will be able to name their price.

Also bear in mind the Longevity Dividend. That is going to be an inducement for societies to implement life extension; it will save them money.

that's exactly my point.

you think a business will develope a cure rather than a treatment that is expensive and must be used over and over again?

businesses are for profit - not solutions or helping the people become more self-sufficient

We need an unprecedented network of non-profits working on all the different aspests of aging.

I don't think a "cure" for aging is possible. I think that with the appropriate treatments, we could live a very long time, but without utterly transforming the vehicles of our consciousness, damage will always accrue and need to be repaired. I think that is baked into the physics of the situation and has little if anything to do with capitalism. I suspect that we can count on capitalism to bring us the treatments that we need, someday. I think that with appropriate government funding of certain kinds of basic research, we could get there a lot faster.

Why shouldn't that be considered a cure?

[niner]

Why shouldn't that be considered a cure?

It would be close enough for me, but abolitionist seemed to be looking for something that you could do once, then never have to do anything ever again. If that is the definition of a "cure", then I don't think it's possible.

Edited by niner, 22 May 2008 - 03:01 AM.

[forever freedom]

Why shouldn't that be considered a cure?

It would be close enough for me, but abolitionist seemed to be looking for something that you could do once, then never have to do anything ever again. If that is the definition of a "cure", then I don't think it's possible.

I think it is. What if we refine the dynamics of our body/DNA to a point where everything is running so smooth and perfect that damage no longer occurs/or damage is readily and 100% efficiently repaired by our body? That doesn't look impossible. Of course something like that would probably be harder than just transforming ourselves into cyborgs and leave organic-based bodies behind.

[niner]

Why shouldn't that be considered a cure?

It would be close enough for me, but abolitionist seemed to be looking for something that you could do once, then never have to do anything ever again. If that is the definition of a "cure", then I don't think it's possible.

I think it is. What if we refine the dynamics of our body/DNA to a point where everything is running so smooth and perfect that damage no longer occurs/or damage is readily and 100% efficiently repaired by our body? That doesn't look impossible. Of course something like that would probably be harder than just transforming ourselves into cyborgs and leave organic-based bodies behind.

That would be quite a difficult problem, to transform our biology to something with perfect self repair. Even a cyborg is going to need maintenance eventually. Still, "impossible" is a very strong word. Let's just say highly improbable.

[forever freedom]

Why shouldn't that be considered a cure?

It would be close enough for me, but abolitionist seemed to be looking for something that you could do once, then never have to do anything ever again. If that is the definition of a "cure", then I don't think it's possible.

I think it is. What if we refine the dynamics of our body/DNA to a point where everything is running so smooth and perfect that damage no longer occurs/or damage is readily and 100% efficiently repaired by our body? That doesn't look impossible. Of course something like that would probably be harder than just transforming ourselves into cyborgs and leave organic-based bodies behind.

Even a cyborg is going to need maintenance eventually.

Yea but i figure that if we can create a cyborg body out of scratch, it would be easier to make a smooth system that would need little to no repair than creating an organic based body like the human body that is perfect and that doesn't need repair.

[VictorBjoerk]

Well some amount of repair would always be necessary....