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Critique my Nootropic stack


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#1 Zoroaster

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 08:54 PM


Ok so I've been researching nootropics for a long time and have been trying to put together my ideal stack. I'm going to be starting medical school in the fall and with the large amount of memorization involved and my slight propensity for scatterbrained and ADD-like bahavior, I want to do whatever I can to maximize my chances of success. If you could critique my stack and let me know if there's anything I should add or take away, that would be great.

A few notes: My biggest priorities are vigilance and memory enhancement, followed by energy. I want to minimize the number of included items that need to be cycled (I want to be able to take it 5 days a week), and I don't want any harsh stimulants (since I have a minor heart condition and it can get really fluttery even with caffeine or albuterol). Price is also a concern. So here we go:

Piracetam
Sulbutiamine
Alpha-GPC
Acetyl-L-Carnitine
R-ALA
Bacopa
L-Theanine

I plan on taking the usual doses of all of these. My plan is to buy them as bulk powders (except for the ALA) and mix them into some orange juice or something and take it with me to class. I'll put in enough for a morning and afternoon dose of each and then drink half at the beginning of classes and half at the end of classes when I begin my personal studying.

Does this sound like a good mix? What about my delivery method does that sound feasible? Any help would be much appreciated.

Edited by Zoroaster, 29 April 2008 - 08:58 PM.


#2 stephen_b

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 09:22 PM

For memorization (mastery of the material, not cramming), this article is a must read, IMO.

The program is called supermemo. It costs $45, but compared to tuition to med school, it's free. ;) An alternative is Mnemosyne.

Stephen

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#3 Zoroaster

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 10:58 PM

For memorization (mastery of the material, not cramming), this article is a must read, IMO.

The program is called supermemo. It costs $45, but compared to tuition to med school, it's free. ;) An alternative is Mnemosyne.

Stephen


Thanks for the tip! I'm a wired reader myself and saw this article in last month's magazine. I thought supermemo looked great but I'm a linux user so the windows-only supermemo wasn't an option for me. But I'm downloading and installing the linux version of Mnemosyne right now!

#4 stephen_b

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 12:50 AM

Thanks for the tip! I'm a wired reader myself and saw this article in last month's magazine. I thought supermemo looked great but I'm a linux user so the windows-only supermemo wasn't an option for me. But I'm downloading and installing the linux version of Mnemosyne right now!

I've heard reports of supermemo running well under wine. Mnemosyne should work great as a pyqt app under linux. I tried it on windows today and the interface is simple and elegant. If you have the latex chain installed, you can easily add equations and have them perfectly typeset. Example: <$>a^2 + b^2 = c^2</$>

Stephen

#5 dopamine

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 12:55 AM

Ok so I've been researching nootropics for a long time and have been trying to put together my ideal stack. I'm going to be starting medical school in the fall and with the large amount of memorization involved and my slight propensity for scatterbrained and ADD-like bahavior, I want to do whatever I can to maximize my chances of success. If you could critique my stack and let me know if there's anything I should add or take away, that would be great.

A few notes: My biggest priorities are vigilance and memory enhancement, followed by energy. I want to minimize the number of included items that need to be cycled (I want to be able to take it 5 days a week), and I don't want any harsh stimulants (since I have a minor heart condition and it can get really fluttery even with caffeine or albuterol). Price is also a concern. So here we go:

Piracetam
Sulbutiamine
Alpha-GPC
Acetyl-L-Carnitine
R-ALA
Bacopa
L-Theanine

I plan on taking the usual doses of all of these. My plan is to buy them as bulk powders (except for the ALA) and mix them into some orange juice or something and take it with me to class. I'll put in enough for a morning and afternoon dose of each and then drink half at the beginning of classes and half at the end of classes when I begin my personal studying.

Does this sound like a good mix? What about my delivery method does that sound feasible? Any help would be much appreciated.


Add one ingredient at a time slowly to gauge your response, nootropics can have contradictory effects at the wrong doses. Sulbutiamine is indicated for anergia (lack of energy), but Bacopa and L-Theanine generally have "anti-stress" effects that some simultaneously find sedating, and therefore counterproductive for your purposes (unless you have a problem with stress, in which case they could prove effective). Acetylcarnitine and alpha gpc are cholinergic, and may produce associated side-effects (usually head or neck tension), so take the lowest dose and move upwards unless you run into unpleasant effects. R-ALA is a good antioxidant, but probably won't help with focus or attention span in school. Piracetam is cheap and many find it effective in an academic setting, myself included, and is probably best suited for what you are looking for.

#6 nootrope

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 02:55 AM

L-Theanine appears to be a more effective nootropic when combined with caffeine, so I'd take it with some coffee.

ALCAR and R-ALA show benefits when combined, so taking both makes sense. How old are you? I think the greatest benefits of ALCAR and R-ALA are for older people.

#7 Zoroaster

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 04:18 AM

L-Theanine appears to be a more effective nootropic when combined with caffeine, so I'd take it with some coffee.

ALCAR and R-ALA show benefits when combined, so taking both makes sense. How old are you? I think the greatest benefits of ALCAR and R-ALA are for older people.


I'm 26, so not that old. Do you think they would still be beneficial? I put in ALCAR and R-ALA because I'd heard they were great for energy and motivation. I was hoping they'd replace my need for caffeine. I'm not a daily coffee drinker but I down a rockstar before study sessions and exams. But like I said in my original post I want to take this stack 5 days a week and I'm trying to stay away from things I could build a tolerance too or things that make my arrythmias act up. Do you happen to know how much caffeine is needed to provide this synergistic effect? Maybe I could throw in a little chocamine.

#8 Zoroaster

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 04:31 AM

Add one ingredient at a time slowly to gauge your response, nootropics can have contradictory effects at the wrong doses. Sulbutiamine is indicated for anergia (lack of energy), but Bacopa and L-Theanine generally have "anti-stress" effects that some simultaneously find sedating, and therefore counterproductive for your purposes (unless you have a problem with stress, in which case they could prove effective). Acetylcarnitine and alpha gpc are cholinergic, and may produce associated side-effects (usually head or neck tension), so take the lowest dose and move upwards unless you run into unpleasant effects. R-ALA is a good antioxidant, but probably won't help with focus or attention span in school. Piracetam is cheap and many find it effective in an academic setting, myself included, and is probably best suited for what you are looking for.


I do have some stress issues and would appreciate something to calm my nerves a bit. But will the bacopa and theanine really cancel out the energy gained from sulbutiamine and ALCAR? I had heard theanine reduced stress but wasn't sedating in most people and I hadn't heard anything about bacopa's effect on energy. I was hoping that any sedation from these would be minimal and would be canceled out by the energy from the other ingredients. Do you think that hope is realistic?

Also, with ALCAR and alpha-GPC both being cholinergic do you think its redundant to include them both? I only had ALA in there because I heard it amplified the effects of ALCAR but if that isn't correct then maybe I should scrap the ALCAR/ALA duo in favor of something that works by a different mechanism. What do you all think of Vinpocetin, Huperzine A, or DMAE?

Edited by Zoroaster, 30 April 2008 - 04:31 AM.


#9 yoyo

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 05:09 AM

Piracetam tastes like ass, so if you are getting bulk powder cap it or get some flavor like crystal-lite.
I would go with a low dose of ALCAR and then add some alpha-GPC. They each have benefits but a combination of lower dose would be better.

#10 zoolander

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 05:47 AM

Oh come on guys! How about some science to back up what your saying. Heresay isn't good enough. If you are basing your claim on science then please reference it. This young man is going into a medical degree so he better get used to the evidence-based approach.

No Who-Ha please.

Anyhow......acetylcholine is the neurotransmitter that you should be concerned about when referring to energy. Hence, acetyl and choline donors may be effective. Addtionally, an acetylcholine esterase inhibitor such as Huperzine A may also help. Combine both donors and inhibitors are you should be on the right track.

Keep in mind though that most therapeutics are exactly that, therapeutics. Devices to treat an already compromised situation.

Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2004 Nov;1033:108-16.Click here to read Links
Delaying the mitochondrial decay of aging with acetylcarnitine.
Ames BN, Liu J.

Nutritional Genomics Center, Children's Hospital Oakland Research Institute, Oakland, CA 94609, USA. bames@chori.org

Oxidative mitochondrial decay is a major contributor to aging. Some of this decay can be reversed in old rats by feeding them normal mitochondrial metabolites, acetylcarnitine (ALC) and lipoic acid (LA), at high levels. Feeding the substrate ALC with LA, a mitochondrial antioxidant, restores the velocity of the reaction (K(m)) for ALC transferase and mitochondrial function. The principle appears to be that, with age, increased oxidative damage to protein causes a deformation of structure of key enzymes with a consequent lessening of affinity (K(m)) for the enzyme substrate. The effect of age on the enzyme-binding affinity can be mimicked by reacting it with malondialdehyde (a lipid peroxidation product that increases with age). In old rats (vs. young rats), mitochondrial membrane potential, cardiolipin level, respiratory control ratio, and cellular O(2) uptake are lower; oxidants/O(2), neuron RNA oxidation, and mutagenic aldehydes from lipid peroxidation are higher. Ambulatory activity and cognition decline with age. Feeding old rats ALC with LA for a few weeks restores mitochondrial function; lowers oxidants, neuron RNA oxidation, and mutagenic aldehydes; and increases rat ambulatory activity and cognition (as assayed with the Skinner box and Morris water maze). A recent meta-analysis of 21 double-blind clinical trials of ALC in the treatment of mild cognitive impairment and mild Alzheimer's disease showed significant efficacy vs. placebo. A meta-analysis of 4 clinical trials of LA for treatment of neuropathic deficits in diabetes showed significant efficacy vs. placebo.


Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol. 2006 Sep;28 Suppl B:1-56.Click here to read Links
Citicoline: pharmacological and clinical review, 2006 update.
Secades JJ, Lorenzo JL.

Medical Department, Grupo Ferrer S.A., Barcelona, Spain.

Cytidine 5'-diphosphocholine, CDP-choline, or citicoline is an essential intermediate in the biosynthetic pathway of structural phospholipids in cell membranes, particularly phosphatidylcholine. Following administration by both the oral and parenteral routes, citicoline releases its two main components, cytidine and choline. Absorption by the oral route is virtually complete, and bioavailability by the oral route is therefore approximately the same as by the intravenous route. Once absorbed, citicoline is widely distributed throughout the body, crosses the blood-brain barrier and reaches the central nervous system (CNS), where it is incorporated into the membrane and microsomal phospholipid fraction. Citicoline activates biosynthesis of structural phospholipids of neuronal membranes, increases brain metabolism, and acts upon the levels of different neurotransmitters. Thus, citicoline has been experimentally shown to increase norepinephrine and dopamine levels in the CNS. Owing to these pharmacological mechanisms, citicoline has a neuroprotective effect in hypoxic and ischemic conditions, decreasing the volume of ischemic lesion, and also improves learning and memory performance in animal models of brain aging. In addition, citicoline has been shown to restore the activity of mitochondrial ATPase and membrane Na+/K+ATPase, to inhibit activation of certain phospholipases, and to accelerate reabsorption of cerebral edema in various experimental models. Citicoline has also been shown to be able to inhibit mechanisms of apoptosis associated to cerebral ischemia and in certain neurodegeneration models, and to potentiate neuroplasticity mechanisms. Citicoline is a safe drug, as shown by the toxicological tests conducted, that has no significant systemic cholinergic effects and is a well tolerated product. These pharmacological characteristics and the action mechanisms of citicoline suggest that this product may be indicated for treatment of cerebral vascular disease, head trauma (HT) of varying severity, and cognitive disorders of different causes. In studies conducted in the treatment of patients with HT, citicoline was able to accelerate recovery from post-traumatic coma and neurological deficits, achieving an improved final functional outcome, and to shorten hospital stay in these patients. Citicoline also improved the mnesic and cognitive disorders seen after HT of minor severity that constitute the so-called post-concussional syndrome. In the treatment of patients with acute ischemic cerebral vascular disease, citicoline accelerates recovery of consciousness and motor deficit, achieves a better final outcome, and facilitates rehabilitation of these patients. The other major indication of citicoline is for treatment of senile cognitive impairment, either secondary to degenerative diseases (e.g. Alzheimer disease) or to chronic cerebral vascular disease. In patients with chronic cerebral ischemia, citicoline improves scores in cognitive rating scales, while in patients with senile dementia of the Alzheimer type it stops the course of disease, and neuroendocrine, neuroimmunomodulatory, and neurophysiological benefits have been reported. Citicoline has also been shown to be effective in Parkinson disease, drug addictions, and alcoholism, as well as in amblyopia and glaucoma. No serious side effects have occurred in any series of patients treated with citicoline, which attests to the safety of treatment with citicoline. © 2006 Prous Science. All rights reserved.


Trends Pharmacol Sci. 2006 Dec;27(12):619-25. Epub 2006 Oct 23.Click here to read Links
Neuroprotective effects of huperzine A: new therapeutic targets for neurodegenerative disease.
Zhang HY, Tang XC.

State Key Laboratory of Drug Research, Shanghai Institute of Materia Medica, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Zhangjiang Hi-Tech Park, Shanghai 201203, China.

In recent years, the most common pharmacological treatment for Alzheimer's disease (AD) has been acetylcholinesterase (AChE) inhibition. However, this single-target approach has limited effectiveness and there is evidence that a multitarget approach might be more effective. Huperzine A (HupA), a novel alkaloid isolated from a Chinese herb, has neuroprotective effects that go beyond the inhibition of AChE. Recent data have demonstrated that HupA can ameliorate the learning and memory deficiency in animal models and AD patients. Its potentially beneficial actions include modification of beta-amyloid peptide processing, reduction of oxidative stress, neuronal protection against apoptosis, and regulation of the expression and secretion of nerve growth factor (NGF) and NGF signaling.


Re. an anti-stress compound....well I prefer Rhodiola over bacopa. The research on bacopa generally suggests that you require chronic dosing for about 12 weeks before you see an effect on memory. Rhodiola on the otherhand has almost immediate effects with a generous 8 hour or so half life per 500mg (5% rosavins)

Phytother Res. 2005 Oct;19(10):819-38.
Stimulating effect of adaptogens: an overview with particular reference to their efficacy following single dose administration.
Panossian A, Wagner H.

Swedish Herbal Institute, Viktor Rydbergsgatan 10, SE-411 32 Gothenburg, Sweden. ap@shi.se

Plant adaptogens are compounds that increase the ability of an organism to adapt to environmental factors and to avoid damage from such factors. The beneficial effects of multi-dose administration of adaptogens are mainly associated with the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis, a part of the stress-system that is believed to play a primary role in the reactions of the body to repeated stress and adaptation. In contrast, the single dose application of adaptogens is important in situations that require a rapid response to tension or to a stressful situation. In this case, the effects of the adaptogens are associated with another part of the stress-system, namely, the sympatho-adrenal-system (SAS), that provides a rapid response mechanism mainly to control the acute reaction of the organism to a stressor. This review focuses primarily on the SAS-mediated stimulating effects of single doses of adaptogens derived from Rhodiola rosea, Schizandra chinensis and Eleutherococcus senticosus. The use of these drugs typically generates no side effects, unlike traditional stimulants that possess addiction, tolerance and abuse potential, produce a negative effect on sleep structure, and cause rebound hypersomnolence or 'come down' effects. Furthermore, single administration of these adaptogens effectively increases mental performance and physical working capacity in humans. R. rosea is the most active of the three plant adaptogens producing, within 30 min of administration, a stimulating effect that continues for at least 4-6 h. The active principles of the three plants that exhibit single dose stimulating effects are glycosides of phenylpropane- and phenylethane-based phenolic compounds such as salidroside, rosavin, syringin and triandrin, the latter being the most active. Copyright © 2005 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.


Vinpocetine.....?? yeah ....nah.....jury is still out IMO re. the effects in healthy individuals (see attached monograph)

Most of what dopamine said

Add one ingredient at a time slowly to gauge your response, nootropics can have contradictory effects at the wrong doses. Sulbutiamine is indicated for anergia (lack of energy), but Bacopa and L-Theanine generally have "anti-stress" effects that some simultaneously find sedating, and therefore counterproductive for your purposes (unless you have a problem with stress, in which case they could prove effective). Acetylcarnitine and alpha gpc are cholinergic, and may produce associated side-effects (usually head or neck tension), so take the lowest dose and move upwards unless you run into unpleasant effects. R-ALA is a good antioxidant, but probably won't help with focus or attention span in school. Piracetam is cheap and many find it effective in an academic setting, myself included, and is probably best suited for what you are looking for.



is good advice especially the part about taking it step by step.

Re. energy.....again, try and manipulate the neurotransmitters involved in energy. For example, D,L-Phenylalanine is a great dopamine precursor. Take this on an empty stomach away from other Large Neutral Amino Acids (LNAAs). Chocamine will add an extra boost.

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Edited by zoolander, 30 April 2008 - 05:49 AM.


#11 Ghostrider

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 06:20 AM

I tried all those. The ALCAR is the most effective -- the only supplement I was able to feel aside from phenylpiracetam. I dropped my ALCAR supplementation though because I can get it for free (L-Carnitine) in the form of SOBE Lean. I still take the ALA daily. To that stack, I would add fish oil...gotta get your Omega 3's. It's cheap too.

Edited by Ghostrider, 30 April 2008 - 06:20 AM.


#12 Zoroaster

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 04:05 PM

Oh come on guys! How about some science to back up what your saying. Heresay isn't good enough. If you are basing your claim on science then please reference it. This young man is going into a medical degree so he better get used to the evidence-based approach.

No Who-Ha please.

Anyhow......acetylcholine is the neurotransmitter that you should be concerned about when referring to energy. Hence, acetyl and choline donors may be effective. Addtionally, an acetylcholine esterase inhibitor such as Huperzine A may also help. Combine both donors and inhibitors are you should be on the right track.

Keep in mind though that most therapeutics are exactly that, therapeutics. Devices to treat an already compromised situation.

Vinpocetine.....?? yeah ....nah.....jury is still out IMO re. the effects in healthy individuals (see attached monograph)

Most of what dopamine said

is good advice especially the part about taking it step by step.

Re. energy.....again, try and manipulate the neurotransmitters involved in energy. For example, D,L-Phenylalanine is a great dopamine precursor. Take this on an empty stomach away from other Large Neutral Amino Acids (LNAAs). Chocamine will add an extra boost.



Thanks for the advice and the scientific approach. Its difficult to find anything other than opinions on some of these substances. I've been doing a little more research and it seems like I might be able to replace both theanine and bacopa with Rhodiola. I was hesitant at first because the powder is supposed to taste terrible to the point of being inedible, but Rhodiola caps are cheap.

I'm a little worried about taking choline, ALCAR, and huperzine A together because it seems like with the Acetylcholine precursers and the esterase inhibitor I'd be running a risk of excitoxicity. I've also read that abnormally high Acetylcholine levels can actually reduce mental performance. Could this be an issue? And will Acetylcholine really increase my memorization abilities or does it just result more in "mental energy". Is there anything besides Paricetam that can substantially impact memorization abilities?

And thanks to others who have commented as well. This is great stuff and I'm learning a lot here. Keep it coming!

#13 stephen_b

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 06:55 PM

Thanks for the advice and the scientific approach. Its difficult to find anything other than opinions on some of these substances. I've been doing a little more research and it seems like I might be able to replace both theanine and bacopa with Rhodiola. I was hesitant at first because the powder is supposed to taste terrible to the point of being inedible, but Rhodiola caps are cheap.

I'm a little worried about taking choline, ALCAR, and huperzine A together [...]

One suggestion is to avoid taking the huperzine A until after evaluating how the choline and ALCAR work for you. I persononally only take ALCAR (as part of LEF's mitochondrial energy optimizer), but will start taking Jarrow citicoline soon.

I wouldn't rule out bacopa if your reason was that it takes about 12 weeks to have an effect. If its mechanism of action is to serve as an brain antioxidant as some speculate, then it might make sense that it takes at least a couple of months to show an effect. You might want to peruse the bacopa thread and the PMID 11498727 study most often cited. Whether the weight of the current evidence passes one's criteria for starting to take it, I don't know. It's not a slam dunk.

Stephen

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#14 Zoroaster

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 08:22 PM

Thanks for the advice and the scientific approach. Its difficult to find anything other than opinions on some of these substances. I've been doing a little more research and it seems like I might be able to replace both theanine and bacopa with Rhodiola. I was hesitant at first because the powder is supposed to taste terrible to the point of being inedible, but Rhodiola caps are cheap.

I'm a little worried about taking choline, ALCAR, and huperzine A together [...]

One suggestion is to avoid taking the huperzine A until after evaluating how the choline and ALCAR work for you. I persononally only take ALCAR (as part of LEF's mitochondrial energy optimizer), but will start taking Jarrow citicoline soon.

I wouldn't rule out bacopa if your reason was that it takes about 12 weeks to have an effect. If its mechanism of action is to serve as an brain antioxidant as some speculate, then it might make sense that it takes at least a couple of months to show an effect. You might want to peruse the bacopa thread and the PMID 11498727 study most often cited. Whether the weight of the current evidence passes one's criteria for starting to take it, I don't know. It's not a slam dunk.

Stephen


Well my concern with Bacopa was with it causing fatigue. But I followed that study link and then read up on several other Bacopa studies and it looks like the effects of long term use are fairly well established. And its quite cheap. So maybe I'll keep that but just take it at night. I have difficulty falling asleep anyway.

Edited by Zoroaster, 30 April 2008 - 08:24 PM.





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