38 replies to this topic

[Cyberbrain]

Comparing Procedures and Policies

[forever freedom]

Alcor is currently the best one, but KrioRus has the advantage that if something happens to the company, considering the country's climate we would keep frozen

[Heliotrope]

Alcor is currently the best one, but KrioRus has the advantage that if something happens to the company, considering the country's climate we would keep frozen

alcor seems to have the most members. looks professional too, though the receptionist never answered my calls or emails ... gotta fire her j/k . as long as all the technicians keep an ample supply of liquid nitrogen around, and remember to do refills and checkups

climate could be an issue if the building is bombed by some invading country and we fall out of dewars. Alcor is too close to the Hot Hot phoenix, Arizona for my comfort

Edited by HYP86, 02 May 2008 - 03:56 AM.

[Heliotrope]

voted ALcor. I don't know about the other orgs, but i'd eventually only choose Alcor or CI. I demand the highest standards, since this is a life and death issue.


All these orgs need to heavily recruit members (getting lots of MONEY support too) , develop better technologies quickly, etc. Too bad there are only half a dozen cryonics orgs. The world needs more of them, but I guess if only one "rescue/recover" works, even if the recovered patient is braindead, millions of ppl will sign up immediately and billions of donations will pour in.

The only orgs are in developed countries now , but when successful recoveries happen, most people in the world will demand to have them all over Earth (even the christian believers will sign up since prospect of afterlife on earth is almost guaranteed) or a new revolution much Larger than the "Communist Revolution" may occur with mad Have-nots destroying buildings and bodies of Haves, take over facilities etc."

When i eventually get done with school and get good jobs (years into the future), i'll donate to these causes. Best to concentrate all the resources to support only 1 or 2 orgs in a short term push , Alcor or CI for now, to push along one successful case.

Edited by HYP86, 04 May 2008 - 05:05 PM.

[Cyberbrain]

It's kind of a shame too because these six companies are the only cryonic providers in the world! Five of which are based in the US. And the sad thing is that they're so small. Even Alcor which is the best of the them all has like only 12 employs. Like HYP86 said, we need a longevity revolution!

It's also kind of a surprise to me that cryonics is not popular. You see in tons of sci-fi films about cryonics and in pop culture, but in reality the cryonics movement is incredibly small.

We should all make a pledge to post as many of these flyers in our communities:

[Heliotrope]

It's kind of a shame too because these six companies are the only cryonic providers in the world! Five of which are based in the US. And the sad thing is that they're so small. Even Alcor which is the best of the them all has like only 12 employs. Like HYP86 said, we need a longevity revolution!

It's also kind of a surprise to me that cryonics is not popular. You see in tons of sci-fi films about cryonics and in pop culture, but in reality the cryonics movement is incredibly small.

We should all make a pledge to post as many of these flyers in our communities:

Yeah I really wish a patient recovery (even if it's a pet/animal or partially working human) works soon, preferrably in this century. then NEWS headlines will say "Death Conquered!" " Engineered Life!" We only need to engineer one case. It only takes one case. ONLY ONE CASE

[Cyberbrain]

Yeah I really wish a patient recovery (even if it's a pet/animal or partially working human) works soon, preferably in this century. then NEWS headlines will say "Death Conquered!" " Engineered Life!" We only need to engineer one case. It only takes one case. ONLY ONE CASE

YES! I know what you mean. I think they were already able to recover a dog, but I think that dog was just in hibernation. If we could just have one case ... it will change the whole world!

We could actually do this today if people actually funded cryonics. The problem, as with everything in life, is money. :(

If people are willing to pay $10,000 to $200,000 for funerals, why don't they want cryonics?

[Heliotrope]

Yeah I really wish a patient recovery (even if it's a pet/animal or partially working human) works soon, preferably in this century. then NEWS headlines will say "Death Conquered!" " Engineered Life!" We only need to engineer one case. It only takes one case. ONLY ONE CASE

YES! I know what you mean. I think they were already able to recover a dog, but I think that dog was just in hibernation. If we could just have one case ... it will change the whole world!

We could actually do this today if people actually funded cryonics. The problem, as with everything in life, is money. :(

If people are willing to pay $10,000 to $200,000 for funerals, why don't they want cryonics?

Burial, cremation, they both offer ZERO chance at physical immortality. Might as well wrap the corpse in a plastic tarp and let the worms feed sooner. but we can use the saved/donated money to fund cryonics or they can have a "funeral" event with the cryopreservation process at alcor, watching surgeons and technicians dictating the steps in vitrification procedure, lol.

i hope it doesn't come to that , but if i'll need a funeral , i'd like it to be at alcor

Edited by HYP86, 04 May 2008 - 09:50 PM.

[Cyberbrain]

If I were to ever pass away, I wouldn't want people to mourn for me or have a funeral. By putting my whole body in cryonic suspension, it's like I'm just freezing my self in time.

With my brain completely intact, I'm technically still "here". As long as my brain is preserved, I'm still part of this world, I'm still me, just frozen. There's no point in getting sad about someone if their brain is still preserved and intact. Thats the cool thing with cryonics, you don't have to get sad if someone dies because you know it will just be a couple of decades before you see them again.

If we just had one case where someone was brought back from suspension ... cryonics will become the next big thing!

[forever freedom]

If I were to ever pass away, I wouldn't want people to mourn for me or have a funeral. By putting my whole body in cryonic suspension, it's like I'm just freezing my self in time.

With my brain completely intact, I'm technically still "here". As long as my brain is preserved, I'm still part of this world, I'm still me, just frozen. There's no point in getting sad about someone if their brain is still preserved and intact. Thats the cool thing with cryonics, you don't have to get sad if someone dies because you know it will just be a couple of decades before you see them again.

If we just had one case where someone was brought back from suspension ... cryonics will become the next big thing!

Probably before we have this "just one case" of someone being brought back from cryonics, aging will already have been cured. So the need for cryonics would be much smaller.

[VictorBjoerk]

If I were to ever pass away, I wouldn't want people to mourn for me or have a funeral. By putting my whole body in cryonic suspension, it's like I'm just freezing my self in time.

With my brain completely intact, I'm technically still "here". As long as my brain is preserved, I'm still part of this world, I'm still me, just frozen. There's no point in getting sad about someone if their brain is still preserved and intact. Thats the cool thing with cryonics, you don't have to get sad if someone dies because you know it will just be a couple of decades before you see them again.

If we just had one case where someone was brought back from suspension ... cryonics will become the next big thing!

Probably before we have this "just one case" of someone being brought back from cryonics, aging will already have been cured. So the need for cryonics would be much smaller.

Well people here are really optimistic.And yes I can't understand why most people want to be buried and eaten by worms instead of at least keeping the potential to live.
And why is there no market for cryonics in Europe?Wouldn't it be good if it was just as natural to put your dead aunt in liquid nitrogen as to put her in a coffin?
I hope that in a few years every hospital will have a cryonic department just like the orthopedic department.And then sad relatives could go to the steel tank sorrowing that the person is not currently there.It should be routine to freeze down people if not any other wish has been made by the person before death.
It should also be financied by tax money because it is extremely obvious in a society that everyone has the right to exist.
Aging may not be possible to cure for a while although I hope so but cryonics is a relevant thing right now that is possible to have everywhere to save people.

Well that's my opinion at least.

BTW is it possible to visit Alcor as a tourist?For you who have visited the company/signed up what feeling did you have when you entered it?

Edited by Shonghow, 05 May 2008 - 04:41 PM.

[forever freedom]

If I were to ever pass away, I wouldn't want people to mourn for me or have a funeral. By putting my whole body in cryonic suspension, it's like I'm just freezing my self in time.

With my brain completely intact, I'm technically still "here". As long as my brain is preserved, I'm still part of this world, I'm still me, just frozen. There's no point in getting sad about someone if their brain is still preserved and intact. Thats the cool thing with cryonics, you don't have to get sad if someone dies because you know it will just be a couple of decades before you see them again.

If we just had one case where someone was brought back from suspension ... cryonics will become the next big thing!

Probably before we have this "just one case" of someone being brought back from cryonics, aging will already have been cured. So the need for cryonics would be much smaller.

Well people here are really optimistic.

I never said that aging will be cured soon. If you thought that you must be thinking that we will manage to bring someone back from cryonics soon. So you're being the optimistic here.

Bringing someone back from cryonics is MUCH harder than stopping aging. Just think about it and all the technology and understanding of the body that we would need to have in order to bring someone back from such a state as from cryonics. Curing aging is child's play in comparison to that.

[VictorBjoerk]

Well to me it appears more complicated to realize Aubrey De Grey's as well as other ways to cure aging and rejuvenate people than bring someone back from cryonics.If I'm wrong it would be good to hear arguments to why it would be otherwise.

[Heliotrope]

good cryonics technologies will offer nice safety valve but no guarantee, best would be to focus on both, get SENS working if possible, then do cryonics

[VictorBjoerk]

I always don't understand why people react so odd when hearing about cryonics?What is so wrong with cryonicsfor the general population?Unethical?Is it more ethical to offer the dead absolutely no hope of returning?Is it religious beliefs that make people think it's such a crazy thing?

[lojzenov]

Can someone please explain something. Even if we ever have the technology to bring the people from cryonics back, why would anyone bother and go reviving you? The process will most likely be very expensive and i just don't see it why they would revive you again. Plus we will most likely have an overcrowded planet in the future(due to undeveloped countries)

Another thing, what if the company goes bankrupt, what if there is a natural disaster?

[drus]

Can someone please explain something. Even if we ever have the technology to bring the people from cryonics back, why would anyone bother and go reviving you? The process will most likely be very expensive and i just don't see it why they would revive you again. Plus we will most likely have an overcrowded planet in the future(due to undeveloped countries)

Another thing, what if the company goes bankrupt, what if there is a natural disaster?

ok, it's a bit of a gamble yes, but considering your options...it's a smart gamble. What I'm wondering is.....why wouldn't someone opt for cryonic suspension??? I have yet to hear a really good intelligent argument against cryonics.

[bgwowk]

Can someone please explain something. Even if we ever have the technology to bring the people from cryonics back, why would anyone bother and go reviving you? The process will most likely be very expensive and i just don't see it why they would revive you again.

Why do you assume that there would be frozen people to revive when technology became available? Seriously. Who would have maintained patients in a continuously frozen state for centuries, and why? Who has been maintaining patients frozen for decades, and why? Answer that, and you will have your answer.

Another thing, what if the company goes bankrupt, what if there is a natural disaster?

That's the problem with life. Nothing is certain. What if YOU go bankrupt? What if YOU suffer in a natural disaster? Does the constant prospect of disaster negate the value of life itself?

[lojzenov]

I agree that cryonics is our best bet to immortality (right now the only one), and if the technology will not advance sufficiently in 70years(which it probably won't) i will probably sign up for something similar. Even if it doesn't work atleast i've tried

Still, the preservation is relatively cheap(all you need is liquid nitrogen and staff to mantain the facility) the revival will not probably be as cheap

And let say you wake up thousand years later in a world you will not understand, you will be without any money, your knowledge would be archaic. What would you do?
That is just one possible scenario.

[VictorBjoerk]

Has anyone seen the documentary about the woman dying of cancer that gets preserved by alcor....Not for the faint-hearted but very interesting

[bgwowk]

Still, the preservation is relatively cheap(all you need is liquid nitrogen and staff to mantain the facility) the revival will not probably be as cheap

The usual argument is that investment returns must exceed maintenance costs for maintenance to be sustainable over the long term, thereby eventually accumulating sufficient capital for revival. Durability of interest in patient welfare is the key. Without that, cryonics will fail.

And let say you wake up thousand years later in a world you will not understand, you will be without any money, your knowledge would be archaic. What would you do?

Restoring physical health without regard for what comes after would be absurd. Ethics requires that a whole process be in place. There must be a pathway, perhaps not unlike a second childhood, that allows people a chance to grow into a different world. In the worst case, we know it is possible to start life knowing nothing and knowing nobody because that is how all life starts.

[Shannon Vyff]

Is money no option in this query?

I really support all cryonics companies, and the standby/suspension/transport companies

[lojzenov]

Let's imagine people sudently star choosing cryonics. We will have millions of frozen bodies. Do you think anyone will unfreeze and "repair" them all. I will not say if that number is couple thousand, then there is a big chance they will unfreeze out of pure human curiosity.

Tell me how do cryonics institute plans to unfreeze people with such limited funds(30.000$ really isn't that much). Probably unfreezing and repairing will cost millions(i know it is relative, because world will change maybe we will have different means of payment etc.) And such technology is hundreds years away, so this will be very expensive to keep people frozen (yes i know some people are real optimists and say it is only ten years away.. personally i think they are just trying to make themselves feel better ,because they won't be able to make it so long)

Maybe alcor is a better possibility, but still.. I am sure interested how the situation with cryonics will look in 50-60years from now.

[bgwowk]

Let's imagine people suddenly star choosing cryonics.

They won't, but say for the sake of your argument that they do.

We will have millions of frozen bodies. Do you think anyone will unfreeze and "repair" them all. I will not say if that number is couple thousand, then there is a big chance they will unfreeze out of pure human curiosity.

If you have millions of frozen bodies, then you also have hundreds of billions of dollars growing with compound interest for centuries. You would also have millions of families with a vested personal interest in seeing the process through. (Last-in-first-out creates of chain of personal interest in seeing people revived from further back in time.) Cryonics is unlikely to be that popular for the foreseeable future, but as popularity does increase, so do the resources and level of human interest needed for it to work.

You seem to be falling into the common trap of viewing cryonics like a time portal that suddenly dumps frozen people into a distant future that doesn't know what to do with them. Cryonics doesn't work like that. Because continuous maintenance is required, there must always be people interested in the welfare of patients the whole way through. If people stay frozen long enough to ever see technology that could revive them, it will only be because there are still people around that care what happens to them, and because there has been growth of capital in excess of that required for maintenance.

[lojzenov]

Yes but what will you do with millions of people that know nothing about modern technology and see the world in a different way. And they have old brains(brain function declines over the years), which will never be able to produce new ideas

Personally i do not believe anyone will unfreeze the bodies on earth. (but there is a possibility they we will colonise the space in our near future, therefore we could live on another planet and partially solving the problem with overpopulation)
Every option is better than death i believe

One more question about cryonics facility. Why don't they open a facility in antartica, cost should be considerably lower due to less lost energy.(ok, there is that global warning issue) Or even putting the storage 100metres under the ground would help significantly.

[bgwowk]

Yes but what will you do with millions of people that know nothing about modern technology and see the world in a different way. And they have old brains(brain function declines over the years), which will never be able to produce new ideas

What is this age that you believe people become a worthless burden on society, worthy of no further care, incapable of novel thought, with no prospect for treatment? I better check my calendar. Have you checked yours?

One more question about cryonics facility. Why don't they open a facility in antartica, cost should be considerably lower due to less lost energy...

They don't for the same reasons that you don't move to Antarctica to save on your summer energy bills.

[lojzenov]

Einstein himself admitted, that he did not have the same "creativity" he had when he was young. Last 20 years i believe he published nothing ..
A lot of problems need to be approached from i different perspective, and mostly only young people have that ability.


Imagine this scenario. We conquer aging, suddently noone has children anymore(due to overcrowding), and the technological advancements start slowing .. until they stop


It is kind of selfish of an individual to put his wishes(therefore preserving oneself) before the needs of the human civilisation
Ofcourse there is an idea to put "oldies" into some kind of computer where they will be able to live apart from the world, but that just doesn't sound the same as "real life" to me, even though one would not be able to notice the difference

[bgwowk]

Einstein himself admitted, that he did not have the same "creativity" he had when he was young. Last 20 years i believe he published nothing ..
A lot of problems need to be approached from i different perspective, and mostly only young people have that ability.

Imagine this scenario. We conquer aging...

You overrate the productive capacity of chronologically young people. In technologically advanced societies, youth is spent learning, and the most productive part of life is delayed until middle age. Income (a measure of productivity) peaks in middle age. Then the fatigue of biological aging begins, and the slide toward decrepitude and death begins. People again become a drain on society.

The more technically advanced a society becomes, the less tolerable biological aging is. The time spent learning to be productive increases, but the productive phase following education becomes squeezed into an ever smaller fraction of lifespan. It's an untenable situation.

If you conquer aging, then everybody gets youth restored. The disease process that impairs cognitive function with age is cured. Combining the experience and reflective capacities of age with the cognitive and creative capacity of youth is an optimum state of human existence. Most of life is then spent being productive, not being educated, or being tired and sick.

Just think how many problems in the world are caused by uneducated young men that lack life experience, repeating the same mistakes generation after generation. Cure aging, and those problems go away. Now *that* is a positive effect on civilization.

Edited by bgwowk, 21 June 2008 - 08:21 PM.

[VictorBjoerk]

Why should people be less creative due to age? I mean eg someone who has worked at the same place for 40 years may not have a lot of creativity but why should this be something age-related? If you feel less creative,change your interests for a while and then creativity may bagin flooding again.....

[lojzenov]

People are less creative due to decline in mental function. Not much we can do on that subjects, brains just weren't made to last forever. And once that information is affected by diseases like alzheimers there really isn't much we can do( i may be wrong, though). Sure there are exceptions, like that 120 y/o lady that had her brains in perfect condition.

You really can't change your interests that easily, if you were educated in one field it will take a while to change your field .. Me personally i am interested in many fields and i feel sad that i will never be able to master them all ..