35 replies to this topic

[Heliotrope]

as you know the hayflick limit is a very alarming phenonmenon occuring in the cells, esp in vitro, 50-60 division cycles over a relatively short period of time, then cellular senescence. if telomere shortens to a critical length and genes get chewed up, not too much can be done

if humans are to live in pure flesh form for a very long time, ie only near biological immortality, as long as we're cell-based organisms , then cellular senescence will become a major issue. true immortality would require us going beyong human biology.

back to the ques, Does the h limit play any important role in human life span? it's almost a non issue or moot point with current life expectancies b/c so many ppl die "prematurely" due to other diseases. cells can't keep on dividing forever though.... when the cells die, then by extension, the org will be near the end of its life

Edited by HYP86, 05 May 2008 - 03:59 AM.

[caston]

The hayflick limit may be only one of a handful ( or perhaps more) of factors leading to senesence in cells. You also need to consider things like falling cellular ATP levels.

http://ouroboros.wor...enescence-away/

[VictorBjoerk]

As far as I understand people long before any eventual Hayflick Theory could be relevant? or?

[caston]

I think there are few cells in an adult with telomeres remaining. The main exceptions being germline and adult stem cells.

[Luna]

I always said that I believe that by fixing the hayflick limit you would probably treat most non "junk" problems in the cells.
The cells split to approx about age 40 as far as I found out so far and then the hayflick limit is achieved.

By fixing that, we are not yet fixing what LYSO Sens is all about but you do fix many immune problems, natural degeneration and by that, most of the aging problems.
If anyone wants to correct me or back me up here, go ahead.

[VictorBjoerk]

How do you know it is reached at age 40?

[Luna]

How do you know it is reached at age 40?

Oh I said 40? meant "40s", but anyways, it is said they are split about 50 times, once every cycle and that a cycle lasts about 10 months, so about somewhere between the 40 to the 50.

[VictorBjoerk]

I didn't know that the cycles always lasted 10 months in humans,Is it always like that or are there individual variations?Do you have any scientific evidence to show that it always lasts 10 months.?

[VictorBjoerk]

And why do crocodiles then not age,wouldn't every cell type in the animal kingdom except stem cells and cancer cells have a hayflick limit?

[VictorBjoerk]

If I understand you right humans before about 40 only suffer from aging caused by "junk" problems (I assume you are talking about glycation and free radical damage etc...).
As I've heard cells would also produce more and more free radicals and be more sensitive to things like misplaced proteins etc which may contribute to increased damage.

[bgwowk]

The Hayflick Limit does not seem to be a major factor in aging.

http://www.senescence.info/cells.html

[Heliotrope]

The Hayflick Limit does not seem to be a major factor in aging.

http://www.senescence.info/cells.html

so we don't have to worry about hayflick limit and only worry about the seven or so major factors that Aubrey de Grey identified ? I feel like it's effects in vivo may be negligible too. we've got enough cells and enough adult stems , telomerases, etc etc and through future gene therapies, maybe even cure/prevent many conditions related to replicative cellular senescence, that is , if we ever live old enough for those things to affect us. i think Calment certainly didn't die b/c of hayflick limit reached everywhere in her body , what did calment die of anyway , simply old age?? what was on her death certificate?

Edited by HYP86, 06 May 2008 - 10:13 PM.

[VictorBjoerk]

Noone knows what Calment died of except possible her doctor at her retirement home.I've never heard that she had suffered from any particular disease either?I would speculate that she could have died of heart failure due to amylodoisis.

I agree that the hayflick limit isn't something relevant for humans right now.

[Heliotrope]

yeah i don't think any person died solely or primarily b/c of the h limit. it may be a big issue if the person gets to live long enough in the current/conventional biological state

Edited by HYP86, 07 May 2008 - 01:52 AM.

[caston]

I always said that I believe that by fixing the hayflick limit you would probably treat most non "junk" problems in the cells.
The cells split to approx about age 40 as far as I found out so far and then the hayflick limit is achieved.

By fixing that, we are not yet fixing what LYSO Sens is all about but you do fix many immune problems, natural degeneration and by that, most of the aging problems.
If anyone wants to correct me or back me up here, go ahead.

Yes, a brief run down won't do it justice (and you should read the chapter "upgrading the biological incinerators" in "ending aging")
but a build of indigestable junk inside the lysosome causes most of the aging related diseases we see today such as heart disease, stroke, atherosclerosis and so on.

When a cell divides though the junk in the lysosome is split between the two daughter cells which would keep the junk in a more manageable form. Also if the cells
are completely replaced by adult stem cell lines then the junk wouldn't really be an issue as the entire cell goes out with the junk. This probably happens to a large degree
but it the body is conserative possibly due to cancer fears.

I don't know why the cell doesn't just periodically replace the lysosome like you would replace the filter on a filtration unit. The option that is being looked at is the same technology used
to treat people with lysosome storage disorders (LSD) called enzyme replacement therpay (ERT) where enzymes capable of breaking down this junk are supplied to the body.

I believe lyso sens aims to identify all of these types of junk for instance 7-keto-cholestrol (implicated in atherosclerosis) and develop enzymes to break them down by investigating the enzymes that bacteria would use to break down the same junk.

Edited by caston, 07 May 2008 - 02:12 AM.

[Luna]

Actually, many MIGHT have died due to the hayflick limit.
If the cells can't divide, they just get old and rusty so the "machine" works more poorly until it fails.

This also brings more diseases because of the lack of ability to properly defend them.
And easier for diseases to attack a poor system.

But I agree the junk is as dangerous (as I said before)

[Heliotrope]

Actually, many MIGHT have died due to the hayflick limit.
If the cells can't divide, they just get old and rusty so the "machine" works more poorly until it fails.

This also brings more diseases because of the lack of ability to properly defend them.
And easier for diseases to attack a poor system.

But I agree the junk is as dangerous (as I said before)

i agree too. they mgiht , may nto be due to direct cause , but definitely indirectly if the cells CANT DIVIDE ANYMORE,
everything starting to wear out, can't fight , can't repair, can't do much

the cellular machines break down, reaching the end of the last divisions , lose proliferative potential, can't be replaced, then massive cell death, just as dangerous as un-controlled cell growth and invasion like in cancer (tho cancer cell basicallyl =" immortal" cells. )

like i said, we're made up of cells, when all the cells are about to die, we're in a shitload of trouble, and by extension/emergent properties etc we die. tho there're TRILLIONS of cells, after a critical % is reached, i believed it's almost beyond recovery w/ techs now, even if possible, may have detected too late to do much , meanwhile , junks accumulate, all those 7 Things listed by de grey still wreak havoc

h limit is a root cause, what gets put on death certificate will be the other diseases or due to "natural" old age /human senescence

Edited by HYP86, 07 May 2008 - 06:16 AM.

[VictorBjoerk]

Actually, many MIGHT have died due to the hayflick limit.
If the cells can't divide, they just get old and rusty so the "machine" works more poorly until it fails.

This also brings more diseases because of the lack of ability to properly defend them.
And easier for diseases to attack a poor system.

But I agree the junk is as dangerous (as I said before)

Well isn't that a little of an oversimplification?what about the 10-month cycle,where can I read about it?

Actually, many MIGHT have died due to the hayflick limit.
If the cells can't divide, they just get old and rusty so the "machine" works more poorly until it fails.

This also brings more diseases because of the lack of ability to properly defend them.
And easier for diseases to attack a poor system.

But I agree the junk is as dangerous (as I said before)

Well isn't that a little of an oversimplification?what about the 10-month cycle,where can I read about it?

[Heliotrope]

Actually, many MIGHT have died due to the hayflick limit.
If the cells can't divide, they just get old and rusty so the "machine" works more poorly until it fails.

This also brings more diseases because of the lack of ability to properly defend them.
And easier for diseases to attack a poor system.

But I agree the junk is as dangerous (as I said before)

Well isn't that a little of an oversimplification?what about the 10-month cycle,where can I read about it?

Actually, many MIGHT have died due to the hayflick limit.
If the cells can't divide, they just get old and rusty so the "machine" works more poorly until it fails.

This also brings more diseases because of the lack of ability to properly defend them.
And easier for diseases to attack a poor system.

But I agree the junk is as dangerous (as I said before)

Well isn't that a little of an oversimplification?what about the 10-month cycle,where can I read about it?

indeed there was an approx 9 month cycle, in hayflick 's original paper Hayflick and Moorhead 1961

[Luna]

Thanks HYP86, saves me to look for it

Anyways, in theory.
Cells stop the divide, body cells start to fade away.
Person loses effective cells in the body. (bone thickness, muscle, brain cells, heart cells.. everything!)
Person abilities are reduced, person is weaker, slower, less effective overall.
Person is more vulnerable to diseases, injuries.
Much of the regeneration ability is gone due to none spliting cells and missing cells in places there should normally be.
Easy for the person to die due to heart attack (well let's not forget to mention CHANCES of getting any heart attack is increases due to decaying heart.).

So overall, lack of telomeres creates "natural body degeneration" part of aging.
I want to see if we can theoretically compare how would a 80 years old with telomeres would be (taking into account LYSO-SENS) compared to a telomeres missing 80 years old.
Will the telomeres full one will have more effective body function and the thing that will truly be his problem would be LYSO-SENS' goal to fix?
Will he look younger on the outside as well due to cells splitting more effectivly still?

[Heliotrope]

Thanks HYP86, saves me to look for it

Anyways, in theory.
Cells stop the divide, body cells start to fade away.
Person loses effective cells in the body. (bone thickness, muscle, brain cells, heart cells.. everything!)
Person abilities are reduced, person is weaker, slower, less effective overall.
Person is more vulnerable to diseases, injuries.
Much of the regeneration ability is gone due to none spliting cells and missing cells in places there should normally be.
Easy for the person to die due to heart attack (well let's not forget to mention CHANCES of getting any heart attack is increases due to decaying heart.).

So overall, lack of telomeres creates "natural body degeneration" part of aging.
I want to see if we can theoretically compare how would a 80 years old with telomeres would be (taking into account LYSO-SENS) compared to a telomeres missing 80 years old.
Will the telomeres full one will have more effective body function and the thing that will truly be his problem would be LYSO-SENS' goal to fix?
Will he look younger on the outside as well due to cells splitting more effectivly still?

I've actually never read Hayflick's original paper on the phenonmenon of the H limit. I only read some second hand sources like textbooks and general science books citing the paper and hayflick's experiments.

May be interesting to check it out, if i can find it anywhere on the web like PubMed?

I agree telemere shortening may be an ultimate problem but if we use too much telomerase and artificially lengthen them, trying to create "immortal" cells with unlimited division cycles, don't you think Cancer would likely result? Telomere shortening is a lifespan clock and when clock ticks to the last second, GAME OVER for the cell, true, but doesn't it also protect us from tumors and cancers? esp if the cell accumulated some serious mutation

What can we do to get a good balance, best of both worlds? We need to find a way to evade cancer growths and then lengthen telomeres and tightly control our cell divisions.

We need total control over our biology, then we can almost be immortal biologically

Edited by HYP86, 08 May 2008 - 09:55 PM.

[VictorBjoerk]

But many hunter-gatherers never get heart attacks they die of old age heart ailments.Isn't heart attacks something that has to do with the problem of protein glycation and fat in the bloodstream?

[VictorBjoerk]

Is the western age associated diseases like diabetes and heart attacks really something that can be explained by the hayflick limit?motivate please

[Luna]

But many hunter-gatherers never get heart attacks they die of old age heart ailments.Isn't heart attacks something that has to do with the problem of protein glycation and fat in the bloodstream?

Excuse me, what did you just say?
and died old age heart aliments?

Heart does not fail "because it's old" it fails for a reason and it could be very well because of degeneration of heart cells such as we speak of. of course it isn't for itself, bloodstream, blood pressure all add up.
If the heart wasn't degenerated, the pressure probably wouldn't matter. actually if the body was a regenerated one, the pressure probably won't be there because the body functions properly and unless the person is really eating very badly and/or very sick (which body function should *mostly* treat sickness), his pressure should be like a 20 years old pressure and no problems.

[maestro949]

Is the western age associated diseases like diabetes and heart attacks really something that can be explained by the hayflick limit?motivate please

Diet and lifestyle seem to be the smoking gun for the western ailments you mention.

As bgwowk pointed out above, the Hayflick limit is not considered to be a primary cause of human senescence and its related aging diseases by gerontologists. There's a big difference between cellular senescence and organism senescences. Cells usually don't even reach the Hayflick limit as they usually self destruct (apoptosis/necrosis) long before that many divisions. The reason you don't quickly run out of cells is because adult stem cells (HSCs) are constantly replacing cells in your body. Over time, this turnover process, along with many other functions, starts to break down due to various intrinsic and extrinsic factors thus raising the likelihood that an aging-related disease like cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc may emerge.

[VictorBjoerk]

But many hunter-gatherers never get heart attacks they die of old age heart ailments.Isn't heart attacks something that has to do with the problem of protein glycation and fat in the bloodstream?

Excuse me, what did you just say?
and died old age heart aliments?

Heart does not fail "because it's old" it fails for a reason and it could be very well because of degeneration of heart cells such as we speak of. of course it isn't for itself, bloodstream, blood pressure all add up.
If the heart wasn't degenerated, the pressure probably wouldn't matter. actually if the body was a regenerated one, the pressure probably won't be there because the body functions properly and unless the person is really eating very badly and/or very sick (which body function should *mostly* treat sickness), his pressure should be like a 20 years old pressure and no problems.

It may be wrong to say "old age heart ailments" but the cause of death of many centenarians seem to be senile amyloidosis affecting the organs and particularly the heart.I think many deaths due to this imbalance have been said to be "death of old age".This is something hunter-gatherers doesn't escape although they escape our common "age-related" diseases.This is something that affects only very aged people almost only after 80.

[VictorBjoerk]

A very large amount of the supercentenarians that have died of apparent "old age weakness" have in fact died due to different kinds of Amyloidosis when having been autopsied.Anyone can read about that when looking around at www.grg.org

[Heliotrope]

A very large amount of the supercentenarians that have died of apparent "old age weakness" have in fact died due to different kinds of Amyloidosis when having been autopsied.Anyone can read about that when looking around at www.grg.org

cool thanks. died of apparent "Old age weakness ' lol, didn't know there was a disease like that. Then again, Aging is a disease that must be conquered!! it's the ultimate disease that get the rest of us who don't get killed by other stuff first!!

[VictorBjoerk]

I'm actually surprised that there is no discussion about the amyloidosis phenomenon here on the imminst forums

[maestro949]

I'm actually surprised that there is no discussion about the amyloidosis phenomenon here on the imminst forums

It's referred to as "junk" 'round here. The SENS strategy is to break this junk down through bioremediation. The other possible solution is to find existing pathways that can already target some of these amyloids and attempt to activate them.