14 replies to this topic

[kiriel]

Good evening,

Anyone know of any supplements that are good to take together with caffeine? Caffeine usage stimulates the CNS, but is there any supplements that alleviate the withdrawal symptoms, or make handling larger doses of caffeine possible?

I believe I grew up with large doses of caffeine without really knowing it (I drank lots and lots of Coca-Cola) since I was very young. This has resulted in that for me to feel normal these days or to be able to work normally and to get the short term memory to work at acceptable level I seem to need stimulants. Without stimulants I feel:

a. very abnormal
b. anxious
c. have ticks (keep on biting my nails, scratching spots on my head, biting stuff, tense jaw etc.)
d. bloated (my whole body actually gets "flubby" and swollen!)
e. uncomfortable physically (itchy, dry, sore, lethargic) etc.

I hypothesize that this is due to me growing up with large doses of caffeine since early childhood, and this made my biochemistry tuned to the body containing certain levels of caffeine of other central stimulants.

So, I have this project in my mind now. I want to be able to feel like I am on stimulants (feel normal, well functioning short term memory, attention span/focus, no anxiety etc.) without being on stimulants. I guess this means continuing to use stimulants (caffeine, theobromine etc.) for now and not going cold turkey. Instead I should phase them off slowly over a longer time in controlled fashion, and this way make my body get accustomed slowly to a biochemical state ex stimulants, still the whole system, including all subsystems, would be working fine as earlier on stimulants.

So I would be very glad for your input. Any tips? Any experiences? Any biochemical insights? Anything would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Edited by kiriel, 09 May 2008 - 08:49 PM.

[edward]

sounds like "without stimulants" you are going through mild withdrawls, so I would either choose to consume the same dosage of stimulants every day at regular intervals or cut them out all together and wait 2 weeks or so and then re-evaluate how you feel. After 2 weeks you will probably feel what it is like to be you without stimulants then you can reassess things.

[ajnast4r]

stopping caffeine cold turkey is generally not a pleasant experience.

the easiest way for me to stop after extended periods of use is to first switch to a moderately caffeinated tea(yerba mate/black) and then wean yourself from that gradually down to nothing. in my experience that usually eliminates about 3/4 of the unwanted side effects. no matter what youre still gonna feel at least somewhat crappy and you just have to deal with it... it goes away. generally it takes me about a month to get back to normal.

[Bghead8che]

Good evening,

Anyone know of any supplements that are good to take together with caffeine? Caffeine usage stimulates the CNS, but is there any supplements that alleviate the withdrawal symptoms, or make handling larger doses of caffeine possible?

I believe I grew up with large doses of caffeine without really knowing it (I drank lots and lots of Coca-Cola) since I was very young. This has resulted in that for me to feel normal these days or to be able to work normally and to get the short term memory to work at acceptable level I seem to need stimulants. Without stimulants I feel:

a. very abnormal
b. anxious
c. have ticks (keep on biting my nails, scratching spots on my head, biting stuff, tense jaw etc.)
d. bloated (my whole body actually gets "flubby" and swollen!)
e. uncomfortable physically (itchy, dry, sore, lethargic) etc.

I hypothesize that this is due to me growing up with large doses of caffeine since early childhood, and this made my biochemistry tuned to the body containing certain levels of caffeine of other central stimulants.

So, I have this project in my mind now. I want to be able to feel like I am on stimulants (feel normal, well functioning short term memory, attention span/focus, no anxiety etc.) without being on stimulants. I guess this means continuing to use stimulants (caffeine, theobromine etc.) for now and not going cold turkey. Instead I should phase them off slowly over a longer time in controlled fashion, and this way make my body get accustomed slowly to a biochemical state ex stimulants, still the whole system, including all subsystems, would be working fine as earlier on stimulants.

So I would be very glad for your input. Any tips? Any experiences? Any biochemical insights? Anything would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Typical withdrawal symptoms. I would suggest a slow taper. I went from 124 ounces a day of Coke to 1 can a day in less than 2 weeks. Every day I would drink a bit less and I was anxious and irritable but all and all I feel much better now.

[kiriel]

Thanks for the replies everyone! Do you have any idea what supplements might alleviate the withdrawal symptoms?

[Shepard]

I've never had caffeine withdrawal symptoms. Even going from 750+mg/day in an EC stack to nothing the next day. I do use tyrosine often, so that might be worth a shot.

[maxwatt]

Vicoden or crack cocaine will alleviate the symptoms of caffeine withdrawal quite nicely.
----
Switching from coffee to tea, then black tea to green tea will reduce your consumption gradually by half to a third. Then once you are using only green tea (and no cola) do the following:
Dip the tea bag in hot water for a second, remove, discard the water and make a cup of tea with the treated tea bag. After a few days wait two seconds, then three. After 5 seconds most of the caffeine is removed and you are drinking decaf. It should be easy to quit at this point.

People differ greatly in their ability to deal with caffeine, or their susceptibility to it. I believe it depends on one's SULT1A levels. High levels, high caffeine tolerance.

[Bghead8che]

Thanks for the replies everyone! Do you have any idea what supplements might alleviate the withdrawal symptoms?

w/drawal is relatively minor compared to other substances. I personally used Valerian root, Passion Flower, Relora, and SunTheanine. I had a really bad habit and like I said w/in 2 weeks I was back to normal. Then again I have detoxed from OxyContin before so my scale may be some what skewed.

-Brian

[kiriel]

Does anyone know the actual mechanism behind the withdrawal symptoms?

[maxwatt]

Does anyone know the actual mechanism behind the withdrawal symptoms?

I once read that the decreased vasoconstriction of withdrawal reduces blood supply to th brain, resulting in headaches and other symptoms.

[kiriel]

Does anyone know the actual mechanism behind the withdrawal symptoms?

I once read that the decreased vasoconstriction of withdrawal reduces blood supply to th brain, resulting in headaches and other symptoms.

You mean the blood vessels dilate and you get less blood in the brain following this? So any vasoconstrictor would alleviate the symptoms? What vasoconstrictors does there exist?

[ajnast4r]

Does anyone know the actual mechanism behind the withdrawal symptoms?

its a myriad of things, not just one.

http://en.wikipedia...._and_withdrawal
http://sulcus.berkel...ripts/_861.html

Links between caffeine withdrawal symptoms and the neurochemical changes associated with regular caffeine use have been explored in this paper. Both adenosine and serotonin caffeine-mediated changes were considered as possible causes of caffeine withdrawal symptoms. The Leite-Morris study revealed that regular caffeine use caused an upregulation of adenosine receptor activity in mouse hippocampus via the down-regulation of inhibitory G-protein subunits (1998). This neurochemical change offered an explanation for the observed attentional deficits exhibited by subjects in the Rogers and Dernoncourt study (1998). Fatigue was found to be a withdrawal symptom experienced by subjects in the Phillips-Bute and Lane study (1998). The fatigue withdrawal symptom was explained by the plasma catecholamine level changes found in the Soeren and Graham study (1998). The increase in catecholamine levels in response to an acute caffeine dose after a period of caffeine withdrawal was due to the upregulation of adenosine receptor activity. Upregulated adenosine receptor activity causes catecholamine release to be inhibited. Consequently, behavioral inhibition (i.e. fatigue) occurs. Thus, the fatigue experienced during caffeine withdrawal is due to the unopposed effects of unregulated adenosine receptor activity. The study executed by Haleem et al. showed evidence that caffeine use causes a decrease in brain serotonin levels. The results of the Haleem et al. study correlate well with the depression-like trends in mood experienced by caffeine-deprived individuals in the Richardson et al. study (1995; 1995). Clearly, a profound link exists between caffeine withdrawal symptoms and neurochemical changes that are caused by regular caffeine use.

Edited by ajnast4r, 13 May 2008 - 09:18 PM.

[kiriel]

Does anyone know the actual mechanism behind the withdrawal symptoms?

its a myriad of things, not just one.

http://en.wikipedia...._and_withdrawal
http://sulcus.berkel...ripts/_861.html

Links between caffeine withdrawal symptoms and the neurochemical changes associated with regular caffeine use have been explored in this paper. Both adenosine and serotonin caffeine-mediated changes were considered as possible causes of caffeine withdrawal symptoms. The Leite-Morris study revealed that regular caffeine use caused an upregulation of adenosine receptor activity in mouse hippocampus via the down-regulation of inhibitory G-protein subunits (1998). This neurochemical change offered an explanation for the observed attentional deficits exhibited by subjects in the Rogers and Dernoncourt study (1998). Fatigue was found to be a withdrawal symptom experienced by subjects in the Phillips-Bute and Lane study (1998). The fatigue withdrawal symptom was explained by the plasma catecholamine level changes found in the Soeren and Graham study (1998). The increase in catecholamine levels in response to an acute caffeine dose after a period of caffeine withdrawal was due to the upregulation of adenosine receptor activity. Upregulated adenosine receptor activity causes catecholamine release to be inhibited. Consequently, behavioral inhibition (i.e. fatigue) occurs. Thus, the fatigue experienced during caffeine withdrawal is due to the unopposed effects of unregulated adenosine receptor activity. The study executed by Haleem et al. showed evidence that caffeine use causes a decrease in brain serotonin levels. The results of the Haleem et al. study correlate well with the depression-like trends in mood experienced by caffeine-deprived individuals in the Richardson et al. study (1995; 1995). Clearly, a profound link exists between caffeine withdrawal symptoms and neurochemical changes that are caused by regular caffeine use.

Thanks!

So according to this caffeine withdrawal correlate with

(1) upregulation of adenosine receptor activity in the brain leading to lower(?) levels of catecholamines in the blood stream in general?
(2) the lower levels of plasma catecholamines lead to fatigue and attention deficit disorder?
(3) caffeine use lowers cerebral serotonin levels?
(4) the lower brain serotonin levels correlate with depression mentality.

So, what could theoretically counteract these correlating relations and help the system to rebalance faster with less pain and debilitating symptoms?

(a) supplementing with adenosine increasing supplements that might speed up the downregulation of adenosine receptor activity and counteract caffeine's adenosine receptor upregulation effects?
(b) supplementing with plasma catecholamine increasing supplements to re-balance plasma catecholamine levels?
(c1) combine caffeine usage with brain serotonin increasing supplements (5-HTP, Tryptophan etc.) ?
(c2) combine caffeine usage with general(?) serotonin receptor inhibitors (GSRI:s)? (Are there any?)
(d) supplementing with adaptogens like Rhodiola to balance the serotonin levels?

I would love to hear your opinions as you people probably know more about this stuff than me. Thanks.

Edited by kiriel, 13 May 2008 - 11:22 PM.

[ajnast4r]

(a) supplementing with adenosine increasing supplements that might speed up the downregulation of adenosine receptor activity and counteract caffeine's adenosine receptor upregulation effects?
(b) supplementing with plasma catecholamine increasing supplements to re-balance plasma catecholamine levels?
(c1) combine caffeine usage with brain serotonin increasing supplements (5-HTP, Tryptophan etc.) ?
(c2) combine caffeine usage with general(?) serotonin receptor inhibitors (GSRI:s)? (Are there any?)
(d) supplementing with adaptogens like Rhodiola to balance the serotonin levels?

I would love to hear your opinions as you people probably know more about this stuff than me. Thanks.

a-c2 = no


rhodiola helped me a lot with the foul mood i got from caffeine cessation

[kiriel]

a-c2 = no

Why no?

(b) would include supplements like Tyrosine and D/L-Phenylalanine.

Edited by kiriel, 16 May 2008 - 01:34 AM.