58 replies to this topic

[Nihilated]

Whenever I try to explain the technological singularity and its possible scenarios to people on other forums, they usually turn it into a laughing matter. Most common responses are:

1. Well, why would I want to become a machine?
2. That's never gonna happen in my lifetime.
3. A computer can't feel emotions.
4. I'm happy with my life as it is.
5. A simulated fantasy? Dream on!

What do you think will happen in the next 2 decades, do you think they will even care? Sometimes it feels lonely to be a transhumanist...

[niner]

Whenever I try to explain the technological singularity and its possible scenarios to people on other forums, they usually turn it into a laughing matter. Most common responses are:

1. Well, why would I want to become a machine?
2. That's never gonna happen in my lifetime.
3. A computer can't feel emotions.
4. I'm happy with my life as it is.
5. A simulated fantasy? Dream on!

What do you think will happen in the next 2 decades, do you think they will even care? Sometimes it feels lonely to be a transhumanist...

Maybe you're not explaining it right. Like, what exactly are you telling them? I generally focus on self-improving AGIs that will be really smart and can help us solve hard problems. I don't get into all the full-on transhuman weirdness that would be hard for them to grasp, like uploading. But then, the only people I've ever tried to explain it to were pretty smart. There are a lot of dopes out there. 50% of people have a two-digit IQ.

[Nihilated]

Maybe you're not explaining it right. Like, what exactly are you telling them? I generally focus on self-improving AGIs that will be really smart and can help us solve hard problems. I don't get into all the full-on transhuman weirdness that would be hard for them to grasp, like uploading. But then, the only people I've ever tried to explain it to were pretty smart. There are a lot of dopes out there. 50% of people have a two-digit IQ.

I've been through it numerous times. Each time I tried, I've fixed my methods or tried something different completely. I've made numerous ways to explain it on several different forums. It just doesn't seem to get to them. The forums were something like General Forum, College Forum, Science and Philosophy Forum, Psychology Forum, etc.

[blazewind]

Whenever I try to explain the technological singularity and its possible scenarios to people on other forums, they usually turn it into a laughing matter. Most common responses are:

1. Well, why would I want to become a machine?
2. That's never gonna happen in my lifetime.
3. A computer can't feel emotions.
4. I'm happy with my life as it is.
5. A simulated fantasy? Dream on!

What do you think will happen in the next 2 decades, do you think they will even care? Sometimes it feels lonely to be a transhumanist...

Well I will give you my answers, maybe it will give you some ideas, although I am also perplexed on how to persuade people.


1. Well, why would I want to become a machine?
A: So you don't get killed when you are 80~ and still want to live.

2. That's never gonna happen in my lifetime.
A: Look at all the scientific advancements that have been done in the past 80~ years.

3. A computer can't feel emotions.
A: Read a neuroscience textbook... chemicals and circuits.

4. I'm happy with my life as it is.
A: Yeah, right now, but when you are 80 and dying you won't be. Have you every changed your mind about anything ever?

5. A simulated fantasy? Dream on!
A: See you got it, dreams are proof a simulated fantasy already exists.

[Nihilated]

Whenever I try to explain the technological singularity and its possible scenarios to people on other forums, they usually turn it into a laughing matter. Most common responses are:

1. Well, why would I want to become a machine?
2. That's never gonna happen in my lifetime.
3. A computer can't feel emotions.
4. I'm happy with my life as it is.
5. A simulated fantasy? Dream on!

What do you think will happen in the next 2 decades, do you think they will even care? Sometimes it feels lonely to be a transhumanist...

Well I will give you my answers, maybe it will give you some ideas, although I am also perplexed on how to persuade people.


1. Well, why would I want to become a machine?
A: So you don't get killed when you are 80~ and still want to live.

2. That's never gonna happen in my lifetime.
A: Look at all the scientific advancements that have been done in the past 80~ years.

3. A computer can't feel emotions.
A: Read a neuroscience textbook... chemicals and circuits.

4. I'm happy with my life as it is.
A: Yeah, right now, but when you are 80 and dying you won't be. Have you every changed your mind about anything ever?

5. A simulated fantasy? Dream on!
A: See you got it, dreams are proof a simulated fantasy already exists.

Nice, man. That was brilliant.

[Cyberbrain]

Even in the existing scientific community and academia, the technological singularity is not very popular. The professors in my computer science and engineering department who know what the singularity means are not big fans of it. They find it a bit far fetched and too futuristic to take it serious. Most of my professors don't believe that AI will surpass human intelligence in our life time, let alone become conscious. I, on the other hand, am very optimistic and believe that we will see great strides in AI and computer technology in the upcoming decades.

[Nihilated]

Even in the existing scientific community and academia, the technological singularity is not very popular. The professors in my computer science and engineering department who know what the singularity means are not big fans of it. They find it a bit far fetched and too futuristic to take it serious. Most of my professors don't believe that AI will surpass human intelligence in our life time, let alone become conscious. I, on the other hand, am very optimistic and believe that we will see great strides in AI and computer technology in the upcoming decades.

Hi Kostas.
Have you ever tried to debate with them about it?

[Cyberbrain]

Even in the existing scientific community and academia, the technological singularity is not very popular. The professors in my computer science and engineering department who know what the singularity means are not big fans of it. They find it a bit far fetched and too futuristic to take it serious. Most of my professors don't believe that AI will surpass human intelligence in our life time, let alone become conscious. I, on the other hand, am very optimistic and believe that we will see great strides in AI and computer technology in the upcoming decades.

Hi Kostas.
Have you ever tried to debate with them about it?

Yeah, several times. But they always have the upper hand since I'm and undergrad and they're profs with Ph.D's ... so it's hard to prove them wrong especially since profs think highly of themselves

[Ben Simon]

1. Well, why would I want to become a machine?
2. That's never gonna happen in my lifetime.
3. A computer can't feel emotions.
4. I'm happy with my life as it is.
5. A simulated fantasy? Dream on!

These are all fair enough comments to make. They don't neccesarily indicate that your friends are ignorant. It's the knee jerk assumptions that get to me. Like if someone were to say, 'That's never going to happen in my lifetime' without providing any argument as to why they think this, or listening to any argument to the contrary. That takes a kind of ignorance, and willful ignorance at that.

I certainly sympathise with not wanting to become a machine or have my mind uploaded. Partly this is because I already am a machine of a sort. If I became a different kind of machine then what part of me would be lost in the conversion? But then I'm fastidious about such questions. It's the reason I don't drink alcohol. To change the chemistry of one's brain temporarily by the addition of foreign chemicals is effectively to become someone or something else for the duration. It's self negating.

[Nihilated]

These are all fair enough comments to make. They don't neccesarily indicate that your friends are ignorant. It's the knee jerk assumptions that get to me. Like if someone were to say, 'That's never going to happen in my lifetime' without providing any argument as to why they think this, or listening to any argument to the contrary. That takes a kind of ignorance, and willful ignorance at that.

I certainly sympathise with not wanting to become a machine or have my mind uploaded. Partly this is because I already am a machine of a sort. If I became a different kind of machine then what part of me would be lost in the conversion? But then I'm fastidious about such questions. It's the reason I don't drink alcohol. To change the chemistry of one's brain temporarily by the addition of foreign chemicals is effectively to become someone or something else for the duration. It's self negating.

Aren't you already 'becoming someone else' every moment of your life? Your cells get replaced and you experience new memories, therefore it's hard to say that you're the same person you were a year ago, a month ago, or even an hour ago. In my opinion, if the shift is gradual, then the person will still retain his consciousness, which is what matters.

[abolitionist]

Whenever I try to explain the technological singularity and its possible scenarios to people on other forums, they usually turn it into a laughing matter. Most common responses are:

1. Well, why would I want to become a machine?
2. That's never gonna happen in my lifetime.
3. A computer can't feel emotions.
4. I'm happy with my life as it is.
5. A simulated fantasy? Dream on!

What do you think will happen in the next 2 decades, do you think they will even care? Sometimes it feels lonely to be a transhumanist...

Don't take it personally, humans are stupid by design;

http://en.wikipedia....butional_biases

1. they already are genetic machines
2. not with that mindset
3. not unless it's designed to
4. then why are you suffering?
5. lol, as if consciousness were not a simulation of reality

I'm with you amigo, don't let their drive for social dominance (using the norms to appear more dominant) deter you.

If they weren't just ape heads seeking dominance they would be willing to question their thinking without trying to make you feel unacceptable.

Edited by abolitionist, 11 May 2008 - 04:14 PM.

[Ben Simon]

Aren't you already 'becoming someone else' every moment of your life? Your cells get replaced and you experience new memories, therefore it's hard to say that you're the same person you were a year ago, a month ago, or even an hour ago. In my opinion, if the shift is gradual, then the person will still retain his consciousness, which is what matters.

You might be right. One definitely thinks of the Ship of Theseus legend.

But cell replication is just that - replication. And though the passing of days and years changes us, I can happily conceive of such changes as mere additions to our consciousness, as opposed to outright transformation from one thing into something else, or change at the expense of deleting what's already there.

Maintaining consciousness is what matters, but consciousness doesn't exist independently. It's the accumulative result of a combination of biological processes. Nor is it the only factor in our identity. Our personal identities are elusive things, and they are contributed to by not only the complicated machinery of the brain, but the entire nervous system, our hormones, etcetera. If we were to isolate consciousness and then copy or move it to another body/host/computer, I am not entirely convinced that the result would be wholly us. It would be somewhat us, and it would be wholly itself... but where would we be? Gone, in a sense, I believe may be the answer.

[abolitionist]

I think a good strategy with ape heads is to force them to back up their assumptions rather than accept your argument - ask for their evidence and subjective desires and experiences.

Question them in such a way as to lead to the natural conclusion that biotech is the only way to address the fundamental and inherent human problems.

Then you can provide them with your knowledge about the many ways forward.

And sometimes, they are too encrusted and your best argument is to ask them why they think others should be restricted from biotech solutions.

then come back here and post their idiotic responses so we can all have a good laugh and further develop our memetic approach

Edited by abolitionist, 11 May 2008 - 04:35 PM.

[abolitionist]

Here's some good questions IMO - (in spirit to be adapted to the situation);

1. If you had the money and the technology currently existed, would you pay to keep your parents from dying if they wished?

2. What do you think is the cause of human suffering? How do you justify suffering? Why do you want the things that you want?

3. How fast does technology develop? Where do you get your information from?

4. In your experience, do you find that people are willfully ignorant and seek short-term comfort over long-term solutions?

Edited by abolitionist, 11 May 2008 - 04:44 PM.

[Ben Simon]

then come back here and post their idiotic responses so we can all have a good laugh and further develop our memetic approach

...Angry.

...Angry young man.

[Heliotrope]

some people are ignorant, but they have the capacity to be well-informed. we should educate them and point them in the right directions

Edited by HYP86, 11 May 2008 - 06:21 PM.

[Heliotrope]

Haven't yOU heARD??? Ignorance is Bliss lol


a true blessing is to be ignorant on some things


jk

though I wish I was ignorant on a lot of things. my life would be more blissful

OR I would love to be god-like and all-knowing and all seeing etc. Understand every single freaking concept in the entire universe and be ignorant on nothing. completely determine/control everthing there is to know and then some . ,

once , or i should say IF, we become immortals that will be the next big goal for us, the Engineering God Project , or Operation God Search.

i wrote a short story called Operation God-Search for fun one time, I can't find my original draft , it's on my other computer's drive. The plot is: humans are so advanced that they are like gods themselves. They thought when we become god, god will be there, but He didnt show up. Something like scientists travelled far and beyond trying to find God, when they reached the far corners of the universe, they encountered a bunch of ETs looking godly. The scientists thought those ETs must be gods then. When the ship touched down, the ETs are gathering around, kneeling down and speaking some alien language. Once translated, the scientists on the space-ship learned the aliens were saying "God has finally arrived. you're the gods prophasized etc etc' Turned out, ETs all over were waiting for Gods to return to them.

Edited by HYP86, 11 May 2008 - 07:37 PM.

[Cyberbrain]

We should create a list of counter arguments towards Pro-Death or anti-transhumanist arguments. For instance, sections could be labeled using letters for main section, prefixing everything with "D" (for death):

DA: Philosophy and Theology
DB: Biology and Chemistry
DC: Technology
DD: Physics and Mathematics
DE: Miscellaneous
DF: Other Arguments

Example:

DA001: Well, why would I want to become a machine?
Many people claim that by replacing body parts with artificial ones or with mechanical ones, we will lose our humanity or become limited.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. The human body is weak and frail. By replacing organs with artificial (or man-made organs) we could live longer, healthier and become more faster, stronger and so forth.

2. The body it's self is a machine.

3. One will not lose their humanity by going synthetic. One is simply replacing components vital to ensuring one's health. As long as one retains their brain they are still conscious and part of the human gene pool, thus they are still human.

4. People are constantly replacing body parts and organs with artificial ones even now-a-days. For instance, kidneys, hearts, legs, arms, and so forth.

[abolitionist]

then come back here and post their idiotic responses so we can all have a good laugh and further develop our memetic approach

...Angry.

...Angry young man.

of course, but i'm not that young.

not to be outraged and angry - well how could you turn that off and be human with present design?

we need to have a support group - it's painful to weather bioluddite BS and helpful to have some comraderie

people are dying and suffering needlessly - i'm fucking pissed and proud of it

Edited by abolitionist, 11 May 2008 - 08:21 PM.

[Nihilated]

We have not seen great strides in (strong) AI in the past five decades, so what is the source of your optimism?

It depends on what you mean by "great" strides.
To me, understanding the brain much more than even a decade ago and developing the technology to reverse engineer the brain are great enough.

[Heliotrope]

We have not seen great strides in (strong) AI in the past five decades, so what is the source of your optimism?

It depends on what you mean by "great" strides.
To me, understanding the brain much more than even a decade ago and developing the technology to reverse engineer the brain are great enough.

strides ? we need a giant leap

[Ben Simon]

people are dying and suffering needlessly - i'm fucking pissed and proud of it

But of course. It was a throwaway remark. And, in fact, a Simpsons reference.

[abolitionist]

people are dying and suffering needlessly - i'm fucking pissed and proud of it

But of course. It was a throwaway remark. And, in fact, a Simpsons reference.

d'oh! I homer need to lighten up

[forever freedom]

I just finished seeing Blade Runner again. This is not entirely on-topic but i didn't feel like creating a new topic.


For those of us here that are old enough and saw Blade Runner when it came out in 1982, did you guys really think that by 2019 we would already have robots that advanced? And what would be the general view back then? Was it really plausible to believe that we would have such robots by 2019?



And on this topic, i never go full speed explaining all that i believe in. I normally start with little, like saying that the computational power is steadily increasing and people obviously can notice that. Then i say that it's proven/certain (that has an effect on people) that if it goes on, in a few decades computers will be powerful enough to emulate our brain, and i say as an example that scientists alread managed to partially simulate a mouse's brain, and it's just a matter of time until computer power catches up the human brain level. People can't really argue here.

Since most people never thought of what i mentioned above, they see that there are indeed possibilities in the future that they didn't see. This makes them already more open minded. Then i go on and on... The trick is to go little by little, and always clearly.

[VictorBjoerk]

Similar things can happen when you speak about immortality to others.They turn it into a laughing matter although they may fear aging themselves.

[Heliotrope]

Similar things can happen when you speak about immortality to others.They turn it into a laughing matter although they may fear aging themselves.

come on , fear of aging is a fear of death! fear of death is a fear of oblivion . fear of oblivion is a fear of nonexistance.


Fear of aging = fear of nonexistance


MAY WELL BE THAT THEY ALL FEAR AGING, even the fundies. makes me wonder though, don't ya think the vast majority of ppl on earth, who by the way are religious folks, have gotten some secret information over us? Maybe most of the crowd got it, that in fact that we need to accept god or his son in order to have good life after we all die.

Ya think 99.9999% of PEOPLE know something that we don't? Who knows?? maybe that's the only way to eternal life? you know what they say , "there re plenty of mansions in my Father's house " so We can all fit in! they don't run out of room there. "no one comes to my father /heaven but through me" yada yada blah blah blah. the only way, the oNLY Way. . .

i mean who doesn't want to keep on existing? who'd like oblivion and be perished forever? who likes to be thrown into lakes of fire? Maybe they REALLY KNOW the truth . LOL they'll probably be up there laughing down on us poor lost souls trying to do the impossible :(


:(



excuse the lang, but they Know we're fucked , dont they? That may be why the fundies try to convert us , bring the prodigal son back to the father

Edited by HYP86, 12 May 2008 - 10:57 PM.

[VictorBjoerk]

Well it may have been a good coping mechanism in ancient times when they couldn't even hope for anything else

[VictorBjoerk]

And even some scientists themselves seem negative to the prospect of human life extension...