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Why are people like Leonard Hayflic and Leon Kass against us?


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#1 Heliotrope

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 03:17 AM


so why are people like Leonard Hayflick and Leon Kass against us??

are they religious? are they afraid they'd miss the boat by a few years? do they think they're too old and won't make it, or don't believe the technical feasibility of cryonics etc, and simply use it as a coping mechanism? misery loves company, do they want other people to join them in death? Did some politicians tell them/ pay them money to tell us to die so they can limit the population explosion and avoid paying out so much SS/ Medicare?

#2 JohnDoe1234

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 04:59 AM

I can't pin the source down, but I think I remember him saying that one cannot live a noble life without dying...

And according to the wikipedia article on him, he is against birth control (stating that it is a woman's destiny to become a mother), and he says that death is a necessary and desirable end.

It also says he was raised in a Yiddish speaking secular family, however with what I have previously read about him, I wouldn't believe him if he told me wasn't religious.

All I have to say to this man, and other people who think they have the right to make life-affecting personal decisions and define morality for others is... GET A LIFE!

Seriously though, these people deserve their own stereotype, they are self-consumed, busybodies... That is really all there is to it.

The fact that he was the chair of Bush's bioethics council tells me a lot about that man.

#3 advancedatheist

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 05:17 AM

Kass identifies himself as a Jew, but ironically it exasperates him that the rabbis he's debated about bioethics have generally come out in favor of radical life extension. (Ronald Bailey provides some examples in his book Liberation Biology.) So lately Kass has allied himself with Catholic bioethicists who argue in favor of suffering, death and keeping human limitations.

Refer to Steven Pinker's essay, "The Stupidity of Dignity," for example.

Of course, Kass and Hayflick won't hang around much longer, and we'll have younger people with different (and probably more open-minded) outlooks arguing for new policies as early as next year.

Edited by advancedatheist, 14 May 2008 - 05:23 AM.


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#4 Cyberbrain

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 05:27 AM

Like Joseph said, the fact Leon Kass was the chair of Bush's bioethics council says it all.

This guy is a fundamentalist and a creationist. He is against stem cell research, cloning and abortion.

He is a die hard conservative. So I say F*** him! It's people like him that prevent the world from going round.

#5 Mind

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 07:00 AM

Remember that it is not just a few of the people who are associated with the current administration that are against life extension, many socialist/environmentalists are also "set in their ways", and vehemently reject aging cures.

#6 maestro949

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 01:22 PM

Good point Mind. The pro-death trance cross all political boundaries. A leftish friend of mind considers the goal of immortality as selfish, nihilist, environmentally destructive and should be put at the very bottom of a long list of priorities. I counter that a longer lived human species and accompanying benefits such as cognitive improvements would benefit all items in that long list.

#7 VictorBjoerk

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 02:13 PM

The fact that they are old themselves may contribute to their opinions.They see no hope and starts to accept and even support the horrible truth....

#8 Heliotrope

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 07:59 PM

The fact that they are old themselves may contribute to their opinions.They see no hope and starts to accept and even support the horrible truth....


they want companies after death. I see it as they just feel it's unnatural.

#9 niner

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 08:40 PM

I know that Kass is just a deathist "Conservative", but what's Hayflick's story? Is he arguing on social grounds or does he just not believe it can ever be done?

#10 VictorBjoerk

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 10:12 PM

What I've learned in all this business is we have so many years and we need to make the best of it. Mother Nature designed this wonderful thing and she designed it so we don't live forever. It's something you can't beat. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think so."


Denham Harman, M.D., Ph.D.


Sounds quite pessimistic

#11 advancedatheist

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 03:19 PM

A leftish friend of mind considers the goal of immortality as selfish, nihilist, environmentally destructive and should be put at the very bottom of a long list of priorities.


Funny, that sounds like what people on the right say about homosexuality, pre- and extramarital sex and other manifestations of sexual freedom.

#12 VictorBjoerk

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 11:25 PM

. There are many in the anti-aging movement who say that aging is a disease that can be prevented. Do you believe that by eating well, exercising, and doing the other things you recommend in Healthy at 100, a person can live a life without illness and perhaps live forever?

John Robbins says:

A healthful diet and lifestyle almost always lead to a longer and healthier life. They provide increased vitality, improved resistance to disease, and a greater sense of wholeness and freedom. But even the finest exercise and diet plan cannot forever overcome the inevitability of aging. Eventually, even the best-cared-for bodies begin to weaken and no longer function as once they did.

In our appearance-oriented society, aging can seem like a misfortune. But in the process of aging, people often come to understandings that are crucial to the completion and fulfillment of their lives. They learn something about loss and acceptance. They may have to cope with enormous difficulties‹a husband dying, a wife getting cancer, even the death of a child. They come to know how vulnerable everyone is. They understand that life is hard at times for everyone.

We have so much to learn from the old. There was a cartoon in The New Yorker entitled "Yuppie Angst." A man is saying, "Oh no, I spilled cappuccino on my down jacket." Elders, who have seen their families and friends die, who have seen generations of people come and go, can have a deeper understanding of tragedy. Closer to death, they are much more in touch with the cycles of life. They understand what makes a life worth living. They know there is little point in having low cholesterol and rock hard abs if you don't love your life.

There are people who make healthy choices hoping that as a result they will never become ill or die, but my motivations are different. I know that suffering occurs in every human life, and I want to prevent as much illness as I can and alleviate as much suffering as I am able. I ask people to take as much responsibility for their health and life as they can, not to avoid everything painful in the human experience, but to lessen suffering and to enrich and illumine who they are with wisdom and love.

A wise man once said, "If you go forward, you will die. If you go backward, you will die. It is better to go forward." The point of going forward, of working to make your life a positive expression of your highest vision, is not to avoid all suffering and death, for that is not within the realm of human possibility. The point, rather, is to meet all of your life experiences, including the most difficult ones, with the greatest powers of love and healing within you. The gift of going forward is not that you will never physically decline or fall ill, but that you will be less likely to do so prematurely, and better able to meet whatever life brings you with grace and wisdom.

We are all vulnerable and naked before the mysteries of life. Sometimes when we look deeply and honestly at our woundedness, we discover our power, our joy, and our will to live. We realize that we can accept imperfections, and that things become beautiful when we love them.

A human life has its seasons, much as the earth has seasons, and each one has its own particular beauty and possibilities. When we ask life to remain perpetually spring, we turn the natural process of life into a process of loss rather than a process of celebration and appreciation.

#13 JRMKYLE

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Posted 16 May 2008 - 12:45 AM

A human life has its seasons, much as the earth has seasons, and each one has its own particular beauty and possibilities. When we ask life to remain perpetually spring, we turn the natural process of life into a process of loss rather than a process of celebration and appreciation.




All those who argue in favor of death on the grounds that death is the "natural" order should be ignored unless they live what they preach:

They should not brush their teeth but let them decay naturally.
They should not live in unnatural houses but rather sleep outside all winter and die at age 20 "naturally."
They should not allow their wives to go to hospital during childbirth and if they do should not allow doctors to sterilize their hands. This is "natural."

Don't waste mental energy in debating hypocrites and idiots.
Let the dead bury the dead.

Edited by JRMKYLE, 16 May 2008 - 12:50 AM.


#14 JohnDoe1234

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Posted 16 May 2008 - 07:45 PM

They should not brush their teeth but let them decay naturally.
They should not live in unnatural houses but rather sleep outside all winter and die at age 20 "naturally."
They should not allow their wives to go to hospital during childbirth and if they do should not allow doctors to sterilize their hands. This is "natural."

You have an excellent point.

#15 VictorBjoerk

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Posted 16 May 2008 - 09:42 PM

They should not brush their teeth but let them decay naturally.
They should not live in unnatural houses but rather sleep outside all winter and die at age 20 "naturally."
They should not allow their wives to go to hospital during childbirth and if they do should not allow doctors to sterilize their hands. This is "natural."

You have an excellent point.


I would certainly agree 100%

#16 Heliotrope

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 03:12 AM

yeah those guys are in no hurry to die either tho they may deeply believe in a god, heaven, and whatnot.

Kass said there's somekind of beauty in the finitude of life. what beauty? Try staring Death in the eye and tell me all serious-faced that it's a beautiful thing

Edited by HYP86, 17 May 2008 - 03:14 AM.


#17 Cyberbrain

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 03:20 AM

They should not brush their teeth but let them decay naturally.
They should not live in unnatural houses but rather sleep outside all winter and die at age 20 "naturally."
They should not allow their wives to go to hospital during childbirth and if they do should not allow doctors to sterilize their hands. This is "natural."

You have an excellent point.


I would certainly agree 100%

Me too.

#18 VictorBjoerk

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 06:08 PM

A human life has its seasons, much as the earth has seasons, and each one has its own particular beauty and possibilities. When we ask life to remain perpetually spring, we turn the natural process of life into a process of loss rather than a process of celebration and appreciation.

Many older people have developed this way of thinking ......

#19 Cyberbrain

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 06:10 PM

A human life has its seasons, much as the earth has seasons, and each one has its own particular beauty and possibilities. When we ask life to remain perpetually spring, we turn the natural process of life into a process of loss rather than a process of celebration and appreciation.

Many older people have developed this way of thinking ......

So does this mean you're a deathist?

#20 eternaltraveler

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 06:12 PM

A human life has its seasons, much as the earth has seasons, and each one has its own particular beauty and possibilities. When we ask life to remain perpetually spring, we turn the natural process of life into a process of loss rather than a process of celebration and appreciation.

Many older people have developed this way of thinking ......


yes, thats the ridiculous deathist trance most of the world is in.

#21 Athanasios

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 07:21 PM

A human life has its seasons, much as the earth has seasons, and each one has its own particular beauty and possibilities. When we ask life to remain perpetually spring, we turn the natural process of life into a process of loss rather than a process of celebration and appreciation.

Many older people have developed this way of thinking ......


My question would be how much this has to do with decay of the body vs. maturity of the mind.

#22 VictorBjoerk

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 11:28 PM

A human life has its seasons, much as the earth has seasons, and each one has its own particular beauty and possibilities. When we ask life to remain perpetually spring, we turn the natural process of life into a process of loss rather than a process of celebration and appreciation.

Many older people have developed this way of thinking ......

So does this mean you're a deathist?


No it was a quote from John Robbins which shows clearly how many people thinks.I'm not a deathist rather the extreme opposite....

#23 Cyberbrain

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Posted 18 May 2008 - 01:25 AM

A human life has its seasons, much as the earth has seasons, and each one has its own particular beauty and possibilities. When we ask life to remain perpetually spring, we turn the natural process of life into a process of loss rather than a process of celebration and appreciation.

Many older people have developed this way of thinking ......

So does this mean you're a deathist?


No it was a quote from John Robbins which shows clearly how many people thinks.I'm not a deathist rather the extreme opposite....

Oh I see :|?

#24 Cyberbrain

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Posted 18 May 2008 - 05:34 AM

Leon Kass has written widely against “unnatural” efforts to live longer, arguing that human life is given meaning by the certainty of death. Kass says,

The finitude of human life is a blessing for every individual, whether he knows it or not.

In his new post he has opposed life extension and his Council report Beyond Therapy lays a large set of speculative concerns at the door of life extension.

A Kass appointee to the PCB, Francis Fukuyama, writes in his book Our Posthuman Future that

Life extension will only lead to rigid, risk-averse societies ruled by slowly decaying seniors ogling the shrinking number of young bodies.

Other members of the President’s Council on Bioethics warn that life extension will exacerbate overpopulation and the growing dependence of the retired on the shrinking working age population.

On a related note:

In 1957, President Dwight D. Eisenhower appointed James Killian (president of M.I.T.) to become the first special assistant to the president for science and technology.

Later Nixon abolished this position, but it was restored again by congress in 1976.

However, the tenure of George W. Bush marks a new nadir. Nine months after taking office, Bush strips the job title of "special assistant to the president" as a reminder that science has no place in politics and that the advisor would never be part of the inner circle again.

We can only hope that the next president will not regulate the science adviser and the entire scientific endeavor.

#25 mike250

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Posted 18 May 2008 - 05:56 AM

Maybe its time the bioethics committee remove their heads out of the sand.

#26 Cyberbrain

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Posted 18 May 2008 - 06:05 AM

Maybe its time the bioethics committee remove their heads out of the sand.

Maybe its time to remove The President's Council on Bioethics all together :|?

The committee was created in 2001. Hopefully it will end in 2009.

#27 VictorBjoerk

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Posted 18 May 2008 - 11:48 AM

http://www.beliefnet...ry_18104_1.html

#28 Ben Simon

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 04:20 AM

http://www.beliefnet...ry_18104_1.html


"You make a distinction between age-related diseases and the natural aging process. Absolutely. The main question that I tackled in writing "Healthy Aging" was, is age-related disease synonymous with aging? Does getting old necessarily mean getting sick? And I think the answer clearly is 'no'."

Wow... that's totally untrue. He makes some good points about the benefits of aging, but many of these benefits are due to having lived for a longer amount of time than when one was young, as opposed to being caused by the aging process itself. One could still gain a hundred years worth of wisdom and need not necessarily age.

#29 Heliotrope

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 04:32 AM

http://www.beliefnet...ry_18104_1.html


"You make a distinction between age-related diseases and the natural aging process. Absolutely. The main question that I tackled in writing "Healthy Aging" was, is age-related disease synonymous with aging? Does getting old necessarily mean getting sick? And I think the answer clearly is 'no'."

Wow... that's totally untrue. He makes some good points about the benefits of aging, but many of these benefits are due to having lived for a longer amount of time than when one was young, as opposed to being caused by the aging process itself. One could still gain a hundred years worth of wisdom and need not necessarily age.




true , imagine wise as a one thousand-year-old but with a young body of a 25-year old ..




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