83 replies to this topic

[william7]

Do you think the guy in this news video, at http://cosmos.bcst.y...p...09&src=news, was telling the truth about praying to God when he was being shot by the armed robber? Do you think God intervened in his behalf?

Here's another link to the story, at http://www.kmov.com/....10190fb57.html.

[JohnDoe1234]

Well, Elijah, of course he prayed to god, he said so... why is that under question?

Though I doubt any sort of god had any hand in his survival.

[spaceistheplace]

Do you think the guy in this news video, at http://cosmos.bcst.y...p...09&src=news, was telling the truth about praying to God when he was being shot by the armed robber? Do you think God intervened in his behalf?

Here's another link to the story, at http://www.kmov.com/....10190fb57.html.

the gun jammed because the robber didn't clean it properly.

i seriously doubt God to be some superhero type figure who swoops down to intervene just in the nick of time.

[JohnDoe1234]

i seriously doubt God to be some superhero type figure who swoops down to intervene just in the nick of time.

Yeah, that would be pretty ridiculous...

[Heliotrope]

mmmph armed robbery?
if i got a gun pointed at my head , i'd pray to god in that situation too, i mean praying even if it doesn't do anything, can serve to calm my mind etc, could be conditioned response , like saying "OMG, oh god. " stupid stuff like that . i'd prefer fighting back or fleeing away more, you know, fight or flight, if no way to outrun a bullet, i'd do my best to kill that bastard robber .

Edited by HYP86, 17 May 2008 - 03:09 AM.

[Live Forever]

If 80% of people pray in harrowing situations, and some of those make it out, then in retrospect they will think it was because of God's intervention. Why could it not just be the simple odds of making it out of such a situation?

[william7]

I can't believe the lack of faith displayed in you guys' posts. Especially spaceistheplace who I thought had sometype of belief in God.

I strongly suspect the guy who was shot in the armed robbery is a sincere believer in God and God intervened in his behalf. I also suspect God intends to bless him in his ministry to at risk youth. God will probably attract the right Christian people to him, as a result of the publicity, who'll help him establish the youth program he wants.

I don't know about you guys, but the victim of the armed robbery appeared to me to be a real sincere Christian type.

Well, Elijah, of course he prayed to god, he said so... why is that under question?

Some people would question whether it was the truth under the circumstances - especially atheists. I myself believe he prayed and was answered.

the gun jammed because the robber didn't clean it properly

Yeah, but it wasn't jammed when the guy loaded it and jacked a round into the chamber. It only became jammed after the first round was fired.

if i got a gun pointed at my head , i'd pray to god in that situation too, i mean praying even if it doesn't do anything, can serve to calm my mind etc, could be conditioned response

You would pray to God even though you don't believe He exists? What a waste of time. If I didn't believe God existed, I would instead focus my mind on someother solution to the problem that might have a chance of working. I would also counter condition my mind so praying would never come up in a serious life-threatening situation where time and quick action is of the utmost importance.

If 80% of people pray in harrowing situations, and some of those make it out, then in retrospect they will think it was because of God's intervention. Why could it not just be the simple odds of making it out of such a situation?

I think the odds are pretty slim of it happening in the case of man who is a very sincere Christian and works with at risk youth like the armed robber and hopes to establish his own youth program. What will you say when the guy gets his own youth program?

[Cyberbrain]

You would pray to God even though you don't believe He exists? What a waste of time. If I didn't believe God existed, I would instead focus my mind on someother solution to the problem that might have a chance of working. I would also counter condition my mind so praying would never come up in a serious life-threatening situation where time and quick action is of the utmost importance.

Thats a very stereotypical view. In near death experiences even the most renowned atheist might turn to praying with no problem. Even my self. In the event of an emergency, I too sometimes resort to praying. It's perfectly natural for two reasons. One is like HYP86 said. Praying relieves stress in certain situations. And two is that the main purpose of human life is survival and when someone is backed into a corner in a life threatening moment with no other option they'll probably start praying as a last resort. When people are panicked and scared, they'll resort to anything ... they've got nothing to lose if if they pray in a near death experience.

Just because someone doesn't believe in God doesn't mean he (or other Gods) don't exist. And a belief in God doesn't necessary constitute his existence either.

[Live Forever]

If 80% of people pray in harrowing situations, and some of those make it out, then in retrospect they will think it was because of God's intervention. Why could it not just be the simple odds of making it out of such a situation?

I think the odds are pretty slim of it happening in the case of man who is a very sincere Christian and works with at risk youth like the armed robber and hopes to establish his own youth program. What will you say when the guy gets his own youth program?

I won't say anything because I really don't care one way or the other. I am simply pointing out that most people pray in situations that seem dire to them. Just because some of these people get out of these situations does not prove anything one way or another about prayer. Now, if it were shown that those who pray get out of life threatening situations more often than those who don't pray, then you would be on to something. (good luck getting that study funded, haha) Every credible study on prayer I have ever read through (like the one on heart patients, half of which were prayed for and half of which were not) has shown no significant advantage to prayer. Of course, you are always welcome to fund your own study in the hopes of convincing me.

[eternaltraveler]

I would not pray in such a situation. I know because I've been in them (at knife point anyway). Cool logical thinking got me out. Had i wasted the few moments I had praying instead of thinking I might be dead.

[forever freedom]

So all others who pray to god to not die yet die nonetheless lack faith elijah? Or god just chooses who he wants to save? What a capricious god.

[william7]

So all others who pray to god to not die yet die nonetheless lack faith elijah? Or god just chooses who he wants to save? What a capricious god.

You got to remember Sam, God might reward those He lets die when He resurrects the dead at Jesus Christ's Second Coming. Revelation 20:4-6. Always remember it's the Lord who searches the heart and examines the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve. Jeremiah 17:10.

[Cyberbrain]

However, I would like to mention that praying is a last resort for me and only applies when I have no other choice or option. Like Elrond said, if I was put in situation where someone put a knife or a gun to my head, praying might be the last thing to do. In a case like that only quick thinking will save me.

[forever freedom]

So all others who pray to god to not die yet die nonetheless lack faith elijah? Or god just chooses who he wants to save? What a capricious god.

You got to remember Sam, God might reward those He lets die when He resurrects the dead at Jesus Christ's Second Coming. Revelation 20:4-6. Always remember it's the Lord who searches the heart and examines the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve. Jeremiah 17:10.

ah elijah if you could just listen to yourself from a less hazy point of view.

[JohnDoe1234]

ah elijah if you could just listen to yourself from a less hazy point of view.

Ahmen brother!

[william7]

So all others who pray to god to not die yet die nonetheless lack faith elijah? Or god just chooses who he wants to save? What a capricious god.

You got to remember Sam, God might reward those He lets die when He resurrects the dead at Jesus Christ's Second Coming. Revelation 20:4-6. Always remember it's the Lord who searches the heart and examines the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve. Jeremiah 17:10.

ah elijah if you could just listen to yourself from a less hazy point of view.

Ahmen brother!

You guys aren't trying to hint that elijah might be a little "touched" or "impaired" are you? My thinking cap is in first rate order, I'll have you know. Good night and may God bless!

[forever freedom]

So all others who pray to god to not die yet die nonetheless lack faith elijah? Or god just chooses who he wants to save? What a capricious god.

You got to remember Sam, God might reward those He lets die when He resurrects the dead at Jesus Christ's Second Coming. Revelation 20:4-6. Always remember it's the Lord who searches the heart and examines the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve. Jeremiah 17:10.

ah elijah if you could just listen to yourself from a less hazy point of view.

Ahmen brother!

You guys aren't trying to hint that elijah might be a little "touched" or "impaired" are you? My thinking cap is in first rate order, I'll have you know. Good night and may God bless!

No, but even healthy minds when consistently feeded with lies become limited in their view of the world. Look at nazy germany for an example.

[cyborgdreamer]

So all others who pray to god to not die yet die nonetheless lack faith elijah? Or god just chooses who he wants to save? What a capricious god.

You got to remember Sam, God might reward those He lets die when He resurrects the dead at Jesus Christ's Second Coming. Revelation 20:4-6. Always remember it's the Lord who searches the heart and examines the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve. Jeremiah 17:10.

ah elijah if you could just listen to yourself from a less hazy point of view.

Ahmen brother!

You guys aren't trying to hint that elijah might be a little "touched" or "impaired" are you? My thinking cap is in first rate order, I'll have you know. Good night and may God bless!

I wouldn't say there's anything wrong with your intelligence but I do think you're irrational. There's a big difference.

[william7]

I do think you're irrational

What standard of irrationality or rationality are you applying? Is it a psychiatric or scientific one?

I don't consider humanly devised standards for judging behavior to be right or legitimate. The biblical standard is the righteous standard by which we are to judge our own behavior in my opinion.

Jesus Christ said to "stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment." John 7:24. I believe that those employing psychiatric or scientific standards when judging human behavior frequently make a wrong judgment and frequently judge by mere appearances contrary to Jesus' teaching to not do so.

[cyborgdreamer]

I do think you're irrational

What standard of irrationality or rationality are you applying? Is it a psychiatric or scientific one?

I don't consider humanly devised standards for judging behavior to be right or legitimate. The biblical standard is the righteous standard by which we are to judge our own behavior in my opinion.

Jesus Christ said to "stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment." John 7:24. I believe that those employing psychiatric or scientific standards when judging human behavior frequently make a wrong judgment and frequently judge by mere appearances contrary to Jesus' teaching to not do so.

By irrational, I mean that your beliefs aren't based on scientific or logical reasoning. So I guess that would be the scientific standard of rationality.

[Cyberbrain]

I do think you're irrational

What standard of irrationality or rationality are you applying? Is it a psychiatric or scientific one?

Irrationality:

noun: the state of being irrational; lacking powers of understanding

Irrational:

adjective: not consistent with or using reason

Taking personal emotions aside, Cyborgdreamer, and others think you're, by definition, irrational.

They probably believe that irrationality in your case stems from two things:

1) Your monotheistic beliefs are based on faith and conviction, thus they defy reason since they are not based on any evidence. Therefore, this is one way people probably classify you as irrational.

2) Your beliefs are inconsistent with others. More specifically, most members of imminst believe human and personal salvation can only come through science and technology, not the supernatural.

In the end we all do what we think is right. In other words, we do what we think will maximize our survivability and well-being. You believe this can only be achieved through religion, others disagree. You base your beliefs on emotions and personal preference, others base their beliefs on observations. Most people here can not take the leap of faith that you have taken, it's too much of a risk for them, including myself.

[Ben Simon]

I can't believe the lack of faith displayed in you guys' posts.

If God intervened then that's God's business. As for the rest of us, we're gonna form our conclusions based on the evidence we have at our disposal, and as there's no evidence that God was involved in any way shape or form, then it makes perfect sense that we should conclude this was just a coincidence. I'm surprised that you would be surprised. Did you actually suspect a story like this, which is pretty flimsy, would defy reasonable explnation and have us believing in miracles?

[inawe]

The person in the video said the robber looked like the guys he used to
work with. Probably he was also a Christian.
Seems that the robber was very inexperienced. May be his first
job? He must have been very nervous. Praying to God he wont be
recognized. That the police wont show up.
God heard the robber's prayers, let him rob some money and get away.

[forever freedom]

I do think you're irrational

What standard of irrationality or rationality are you applying? Is it a psychiatric or scientific one?

I don't consider humanly devised standards for judging behavior to be right or legitimate. The biblical standard is the righteous standard by which we are to judge our own behavior in my opinion.

Jesus Christ said to "stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment." John 7:24. I believe that those employing psychiatric or scientific standards when judging human behavior frequently make a wrong judgment and frequently judge by mere appearances contrary to Jesus' teaching to not do so.

But you're judging your rationality by the standarts of a belief that you didn't use rationality to accept and adopt in the first place. Do you see the irrationality here?

[william7]

1) Your monotheistic beliefs are based on faith and conviction, thus they defy reason since they are not based on any evidence.

That too depends on the standard of evidence applied. I have to judge the evidence contained in the Bible by my experience with God's Holy Spirit. I'm not able to apply a strict scientific standard of evidence. I would be forced to disregard the truth of my experience if I did.

2) Your beliefs are inconsistent with others. More specifically, most members of imminst believe human and personal salvation can only come through science and technology, not the supernatural.

You guys have the "Promethean spirit" mentioned in the booklet Is the Bible True? In the third chapter of the booklet it says:

Prometheus was the mythical Greek figure who, it was claimed, defied the gods by stealing fire from Zeus, the chief god, and giving it to mankind. Mr. Johnson defines the "Promethian spirit" as one of men and women "believ[ing they] can do without God." It is a spirit of pride, trust in human wisdom and understanding, and resistance and defiance of things supernatural, including the Bible.

http://www.gnmagazin...upernatural.htm

In the end we all do what we think is right. In other words, we do what we think will maximize our survivability and well-being.

This is why I stick with the Bible.

You base your beliefs on emotions and personal preference

I base my belief on my experience and the evidence revealed in the Scriptures.

[Ben Simon]

...trust in human wisdom and understanding, and resistance and defiance of things supernatural, including the Bible.

In most other contexts this would be presented as a positive.

[william7]

Did you actually suspect a story like this, which is pretty flimsy, would defy reasonable explnation and have us believing in miracles?

I thought the victim of the robbery showed outstanding Christian character, and, from this, I formed the belief he was telling the truth about crying out to God for protection and that it was God who intervened in his behalf. Had it been some big business executive, who didn't have that ring of truth about him, I probably would've doubted the story and felt the matter was a coincidence or chance event.

[Cyberbrain]

You guys have the "Promethean spirit" mentioned in the booklet Is the Bible True?

As a Greek, I can definitely say that I have the Promethean spirit

[william7]

The person in the video said the robber looked like the guys he used to
work with. Probably he was also a Christian.
Seems that the robber was very inexperienced. May be his first
job? He must have been very nervous. Praying to God he wont be
recognized. That the police wont show up.
God heard the robber's prayers, let him rob some money and get away.

I find it highly unlikely the robber prayed to God for success, and, I'm fairly certain, God doesn't answer such prayers if they are made. If anything, God would trip up and cause the arrest of such robbers so they would be imprisoned where He could begin to teach them the Scriptures under conditions where He would have their attention.

[Cyberbrain]

I find it highly unlikely the robber prayed to God for success, and, I'm fairly certain, God doesn't answer such prayers if they are made. If anything, God would trip up and cause the arrest of such robbers so they would be imprisoned where He could begin to teach them the Scriptures under conditions where He would have their attention.

Thats very wishful thinking. Why would God intervene a robber but doesn't help the 5 billion people who are dying of poverty, war, famine or disease in third world countries?



Claiming that it's "God's Will" or that it's part of "God's Plan" or that "God works in mysteries ways" is disgusting and is not a valid excuse.