57 replies to this topic

[Ben]

It has been exactly a week since my last post. So far the acne has worsened. I took a few days break from the retinoid I'm using (.1% tazarotene) to no avail. I'm going to stop using the bioderma photoderm spf 50+ to see if that helps. Wish me luck.

Edited by Ben - Aus, 18 October 2008 - 02:49 AM.

[Matt]

The green tea thing didn't work then? :( Drinking green tea doesn't work by the way, you have to rub it and hold it against the breakouts. One study found that green tea was as effective as 4% benzoyl peroxide in treating acne. Not only does it calm breakouts, it 'prevents' any scarring.
http://ezinearticles...-...y&id=486985

See what people experienced here
http://www.acne.org/.../207/page1.html

Edited by Matt, 18 October 2008 - 02:55 AM.

[Ben]

The green tea thing didn't work then? :( Drinking green tea doesn't work by the way, you have to rub it and hold it against the breakouts. One study found that green tea was as effective as 4% benzoyl peroxide in treating acne. Not only does it calm breakouts, it 'prevents' any scarring.
http://ezinearticles...-...y&id=486985

See what people experienced here
http://www.acne.org/.../207/page1.html

Oh my I forgot all about the green tea. I am literally going to get some bags tomorrow and do it. I'll keep you posted through this thread. I'm at a lose end so I'm willing to feel like a doof holding cold tea bags to my face.

My gosh, some of the pics at that acne.org deserve a ratings label.

Edited by Ben - Aus, 18 October 2008 - 01:37 PM.

[Matt]

Just make a cup of tea... drink all or most of the tea and use the tea bags, and maybe a tissue or pads or something to dip into the cup and hold against the breakout area. Honestly, I wouldn't do it if it never worked for me. Within half hour the spot reduces in size, its less red, and then within just a couple days its like it never even happened

[Eva Victoria]

Katherine, I think you mix ZnO micro and regular ZnO with each other. What you wrote applies to micronized ZnO not ZnO (particle size 200).

20%ZnO (not micro!) has the highest UVA protection (peak at 383nm and it decreases at 500nm hence the visibility). 20% ZnO formulated in silicone (which will coat the particles and minimize ROS) will give SPF20 SPA 18. It is not the best protection against UVB rays but defenitely one of the most photostable UVA protectors that do not have to be reapplied.

It is indeed very whitening.
One could of course mix it with chemical(organic) sunscreens (OMC, AVO, TinosorbS+M, TiO2) and lower the need for so high ZnO.
Of course in this case the sunscreen has to be reapplied every 2h (bcause organic sunscreens will break down).
AVO+ZnO or TiO2 cannot be blanded together in the same sunscreen in the US (FDA reguations) + TinosorbM+S are not approved in the US either. That will leave us to OMC+AVO+Octocrylene for the US which won't have much UVA protection for long though neither any in the UVA2 spectrum (320-360).

Eva: I am confused about your comments about micronized zinc. I use this product, it has micronized zinc, and it seems to have good ratings.

http://www.cosmetics...?prod_id=115886

(edited by Matthias: damaged quote syntax fixed)

Sorry for not having seen your post before now.
Micronized ZnO has lower UVA1 protection than non-micro ZnO. But much higher UVB protection! (non-micro ZnO should always be mixed with TiO2 for good protection in the UVB zone!).

[Ben]

Ok another update: I used the green tea bags on my face about a week ago. I think that there was some temporary improvement; now, later on, my skin is worse though. I think holding the bags to my face increased the bacteria content for two reasons, 1: Maybe my fingers were dirty and this added to the bacteria on my face, 2: The temperature of the tea back had to be luke warm before I could apply it. I think that this created a temperature on the surface of my skin conducive to the growth of bacteria.

Exasperated I went to the doctor and got some erythromycin .This has helped somewhat on the pimples that had become pustules but has not affected the papules at all really.

Edited by Ben - Aus, 30 October 2008 - 02:00 AM.

[Eva Victoria]

Ok another update: I used the green tea bags on my face about a week ago. I think that there was some temporary improvement; now, later on, my skin is worse though. I think holding the bags to my face increased the bacteria content for two reasons, 1: Maybe my fingers were dirty and this added to the bacteria on my face, 2: The temperature of the tea back had to be luke warm before I could apply it. I think that this created a temperature on the surface of my skin conducive to the growth of bacteria.

Exasperated I went to the doctor and got some erythromycin .This has helped somewhat on the pimples that had become pustules but has not affected the papules at all really.

If you have sever acne and there is danger for scarring maybe it would be very wise to visit a dermatologist and maybe discuss Roaccutane.

Attached Files

•  Roaccutane_PI.pdf   76.33KB   33 downloads

[Ben]

Ok another update: I used the green tea bags on my face about a week ago. I think that there was some temporary improvement; now, later on, my skin is worse though. I think holding the bags to my face increased the bacteria content for two reasons, 1: Maybe my fingers were dirty and this added to the bacteria on my face, 2: The temperature of the tea back had to be luke warm before I could apply it. I think that this created a temperature on the surface of my skin conducive to the growth of bacteria.

Exasperated I went to the doctor and got some erythromycin .This has helped somewhat on the pimples that had become pustules but has not affected the papules at all really.

If you have sever acne and there is danger for scarring maybe it would be very wise to visit a dermatologist and maybe discuss Roaccutane.

Yes it's scarring that scars me the most. I think I have scar prone skin. Also the lesions that have seemed to healed are still red. Perhaps these are already scars.

The problem with taking accutane is that it itself has so many side effects. If things become worse I'll definitely see a dermatologist. Do you think however, that it's worth seeing one now anyway? Keep in mind that it'll cost me around $150.

[frederickson]

Ok another update: I used the green tea bags on my face about a week ago. I think that there was some temporary improvement; now, later on, my skin is worse though. I think holding the bags to my face increased the bacteria content for two reasons, 1: Maybe my fingers were dirty and this added to the bacteria on my face, 2: The temperature of the tea back had to be luke warm before I could apply it. I think that this created a temperature on the surface of my skin conducive to the growth of bacteria.

Exasperated I went to the doctor and got some erythromycin .This has helped somewhat on the pimples that had become pustules but has not affected the papules at all really.

If you have sever acne and there is danger for scarring maybe it would be very wise to visit a dermatologist and maybe discuss Roaccutane.

Yes it's scarring that scars me the most. I think I have scar prone skin. Also the lesions that have seemed to healed are still red. Perhaps these are already scars.

The problem with taking accutane is that it itself has so many side effects. If things become worse I'll definitely see a dermatologist. Do you think however, that it's worth seeing one now anyway? Keep in mind that it'll cost me around $150.

ben-aus... before you go down the slippery (and expensive) road of the dermatologist and topical products - or worse, accutane - you owe it to yourself to try topical urine therapy. as i indicated in the thread i just started, i have been AMAZED with its effects on my forehead acne after only one week. i have read many similar accounts on acne.org, curezone, and am beginning reading a book on the subject.

[Ben]

ben-aus... before you go down the slippery (and expensive) road of the dermatologist and topical products - or worse, accutane - you owe it to yourself to try topical urine therapy. as i indicated in the thread i just started, i have been AMAZED with its effects on my forehead acne after only one week. i have read many similar accounts on acne.org, curezone, and am beginning reading a book on the subject.

Topical Urine therapy? Are you trying to be funny?

[frederickson]

ben-aus... before you go down the slippery (and expensive) road of the dermatologist and topical products - or worse, accutane - you owe it to yourself to try topical urine therapy. as i indicated in the thread i just started, i have been AMAZED with its effects on my forehead acne after only one week. i have read many similar accounts on acne.org, curezone, and am beginning reading a book on the subject.

Topical Urine therapy? Are you trying to be funny?

absolutely not. read the thread i posted!

[Mia K.]

Ben-Aus,

Sorry to read that your skin is misbehaving.

Have you considered Avene's Diacneal? It's a strong .1% retinaldehyde with 6% glycolic acid OTC gel. Reportedly as effective as .05% Retin-A without the irritation. The link I'm providing is to a commercial site; there are further links to studies regarding its efficacy.

http://www.skincarec...z/diacneal.html

Best, Mia

(Edit to add: I've no affiliation with the linked site or product)

Edited by Mia K., 31 October 2008 - 11:32 PM.

[kismet]

Yes it's scarring that scars me the most. I think I have scar prone skin.
Also the lesions that have seemed to healed are still red. Perhaps these are already scars.

No, red spots are some form of hyperpigmentation, it can persist for years, though, but it is not a scar per se AFAIK.
If it's scarring I would definitely visit a derm and hope that (s)he is competent (most docs in Austria are not and I was better off with self-medication).

[Eva Victoria]

Ok another update: I used the green tea bags on my face about a week ago. I think that there was some temporary improvement; now, later on, my skin is worse though. I think holding the bags to my face increased the bacteria content for two reasons, 1: Maybe my fingers were dirty and this added to the bacteria on my face, 2: The temperature of the tea back had to be luke warm before I could apply it. I think that this created a temperature on the surface of my skin conducive to the growth of bacteria.

Exasperated I went to the doctor and got some erythromycin .This has helped somewhat on the pimples that had become pustules but has not affected the papules at all really.

If you have sever acne and there is danger for scarring maybe it would be very wise to visit a dermatologist and maybe discuss Roaccutane.

Yes it's scarring that scars me the most. I think I have scar prone skin. Also the lesions that have seemed to healed are still red. Perhaps these are already scars.

The problem with taking accutane is that it itself has so many side effects. If things become worse I'll definitely see a dermatologist. Do you think however, that it's worth seeing one now anyway? Keep in mind that it'll cost me around $150.

Well, I think a derm is always a best solution when self medication does not work.
It is difficult to say however without seeing your skin.

The product: Avene's Diacneal that Mia kindly recommends is classified as cosmetics in the EU (US OTC?) so it does not have much effect.

I don't really like recommending Obagi products but they can help in a great extend if one uses them as prescribed!

AM regimen:
LRP Lipicar Syndet cleanser
Obagi Clear (4% Hydroquinon, RX only!) 0,5 g
Obagi Exfoderm (with Phytic Acid)
High UVA protective sunscreen (preferably EU susncreen), reapply frequently! If skin irritated (which is most likely in the first 2-3 weeks) a minaral sunscreen is the best choice (Biodderma Minerale SPF50+ UVA22; Avene Mineral SPF50, UVA15).

PM regimen:
LRP Lipicar Syndet cleanser
Obagi Clear (4% Hydroquinon, RX only!) 0,5 g
Obagi Blender (4% Hydroquinon, RX only!) 0,5 g + 1g Tretinoin (Retin-A 0,05% or 0,1%)

Total sunavoidance is a MUST!

This regimen does help with acne, acne scars and pigmentation.

[Mia K.]

Ok another update: I used the green tea bags on my face about a week ago. I think that there was some temporary improvement; now, later on, my skin is worse though. I think holding the bags to my face increased the bacteria content for two reasons, 1: Maybe my fingers were dirty and this added to the bacteria on my face, 2: The temperature of the tea back had to be luke warm before I could apply it. I think that this created a temperature on the surface of my skin conducive to the growth of bacteria.

Exasperated I went to the doctor and got some erythromycin .This has helped somewhat on the pimples that had become pustules but has not affected the papules at all really.

If you have sever acne and there is danger for scarring maybe it would be very wise to visit a dermatologist and maybe discuss Roaccutane.

Yes it's scarring that scars me the most. I think I have scar prone skin. Also the lesions that have seemed to healed are still red. Perhaps these are already scars.

The problem with taking accutane is that it itself has so many side effects. If things become worse I'll definitely see a dermatologist. Do you think however, that it's worth seeing one now anyway? Keep in mind that it'll cost me around $150.

Well, I think a derm is always a best solution when self medication does not work.
It is difficult to say however without seeing your skin.

The product: Avene's Diacneal that Mia kindly recommends is classified as cosmetics in the EU (US OTC?) so it does not have much effect.

Eva,

OTC = Over the counter (i.e, no prescription needed)

You may be right about the Diacnel, but I don't know that I would quickly dismiss a product as not having much effect simply because it's OTC. Just offhand I'm thinking of benzoyl peroxide.

As always I respect your expertise (and look forward to your s/s !)

Regards, Mia

[Eva Victoria]

Ok another update: I used the green tea bags on my face about a week ago. I think that there was some temporary improvement; now, later on, my skin is worse though. I think holding the bags to my face increased the bacteria content for two reasons, 1: Maybe my fingers were dirty and this added to the bacteria on my face, 2: The temperature of the tea back had to be luke warm before I could apply it. I think that this created a temperature on the surface of my skin conducive to the growth of bacteria.

Exasperated I went to the doctor and got some erythromycin .This has helped somewhat on the pimples that had become pustules but has not affected the papules at all really.

If you have sever acne and there is danger for scarring maybe it would be very wise to visit a dermatologist and maybe discuss Roaccutane.

Yes it's scarring that scars me the most. I think I have scar prone skin. Also the lesions that have seemed to healed are still red. Perhaps these are already scars.

The problem with taking accutane is that it itself has so many side effects. If things become worse I'll definitely see a dermatologist. Do you think however, that it's worth seeing one now anyway? Keep in mind that it'll cost me around $150.

Well, I think a derm is always a best solution when self medication does not work.
It is difficult to say however without seeing your skin.

The product: Avene's Diacneal that Mia kindly recommends is classified as cosmetics in the EU (US OTC?) so it does not have much effect.

Eva,

OTC = Over the counter (i.e, no prescription needed)

You may be right about the Diacnel, but I don't know that I would quickly dismiss a product as not having much effect simply because it's OTC. Just offhand I'm thinking of benzoyl peroxide.

As always I respect your expertise (and look forward to your s/s !)

Regards, Mia

Hi Mia!

Thanks for the explanation of the term OTC What I meant by "US OTC?" was that it is interesting and surprising that it is classified as OTC drug in the US when it is NOT classified as OTC drug in the EU. It falls in the category of cosmetics in the EU.

Benzoyl peroxide would not be a bad choice (even though it is OTC drug) if it wasn't highly an oxidizing agent :(
Beware mixing benzoyl peroxide and products containing Hydoquinon! They do not work in synergy. In fact no active anti acne treatment works in synergy with benzoyl peroxide!

[kismet]

Antibiotics do work in synergy with BPO to some extent (mitigation of resistance) and in Austria it is a prescription drug anyway.
I can think of at least two OTC topicals that might be helpful for acne e.g. teatree oil and nicotinamide. Even in Austria/Europe, where pretty much everything is regulated, there are some useful substances one can legally buy w/o a prescription.

[Ben]

Update

Ok, firstly, good news: The pimples and other lesions are healing. It's happening very slowly but I am seeing an improvement rather than a worsening like before. So far the erythromycin is working better than any spot relief topical I've ever used. I still have lingering concerns about scars however.

[conwict]

Dunno if this is an old thread or not, haven't read the second page, but no one has mentioned this:

Topical milk of magnesia does great for me. I have problematic skin on my face. Not a lot of blackheads, but a good number of angry red bumps if I get stressed out or sleep on a bad schedule. One night of milk of magnesia keeps me from being as greasy the next day, and shrinks and makes bumps look less angry.

It's a little goofy sounding: you apply it as a mask and let it dry, then go to bed. It doesn't flake too badly. You can do two layers also, but when you get good at it you can get enough in one layer. Also, you can pour the water off the solution as it seperates in the bottle, making the milk of mag thicker and easier to apply.

This isn't a joke, just google people's pharmacy milk of magnesia acne if you don't believe me. Best treatment I've found! My girlfriend can actually tell a difference if I go a few days without using it, then apply it; the next morning I'm a good deal clearer.

[conwict]

Eva,

You're still confused about the phrase "OTC."

OTC means non-prescription and, literally, "over the counter." Anything that you can get in a retail store without a prescription or special process is considered OTC.

Oral syringes are OTC, cosmetic products are OTC, OTC drugs are OTC.

Clearly umbrellas and handbags are also OTC, but it is redundant to say so since one would never need a prescription for them.

OTC cosmetic products are referred to as such because in the US there are also prescription/doctor-applied cosmetic products: botox, benzoyl peroxide 6%, retin-A, nizoral 2%...

[Mouser]

Having tried a number of topical agents as well as oral antibiotics, I've finally come to Differin Cream - there is also a gel which is supposedly very drying - which is simply amazing. You'll read mixed results on the web. But, for me it reduces inflammation and redness, clears up acne, exfoliates, and moisturizes. In general its making my skin feel much younger. It sounds like a commercial for the stuff. I'm just so amazed that something is finally working. Its a prescription and non-generic, but well worth the price (at least my copay, not sure the full price). I also currently use a witch hazel toner and a glycolic acid AHA cream. I'd recommend the AHA cream. It is Walgreens brand but looks to be made by Neo Stratta which is a reputable brand usually sold in dermatology offices. At ~$5 per bottle its easy to try - Walgreens Nature's Finest Alpha Hydroxy, 8% AHA solution of 70% solution.

Didn't read the whole thread but I think I saw mention of dark circles under the eyes. There could be causes other than cosmetic for these. You should consider if any of these might be going on: poor or non-restorative sleep, nasal or sinus congestion and indoor/outdoor allergies (dust mites could be a big one), or even thyroid levels.

Other things I've tried:
Retin A: horrible irritation and peeling
Retin A micro: much less irritation but did not work
Duac Gel: somewhat effective, watch out for bleaching of clothes
Benzoyl Peroxide: same as Duac
Oral antibiotic: may have worked

[Mia K.]

Ben-Aus,

I identify with your fear of scarring.

I had mild but persistent acne as a teenager that did not respond to or was overly irritated by topicals. I did not want to be "scarred for life."

My derm (from the Univ of Miami - Dr. Baumann's stomping ground) finally prescribed a three month course of Accutane.

It worked beautifully - no negative reaction whatsoever - my skin cleared right up. I'd recommend looking into it if you're so inclined.

Just an anecdote. I'm glad to read that you're having success with the antibiotic therapy.

Best, Mia

Edited by Mia K., 06 November 2008 - 08:36 PM.

[Ben]

Having tried a number of topical agents as well as oral antibiotics, I've finally come to Differin
[...]
Other things I've tried:
Retin A: horrible irritation and peeling
Retin A micro: much less irritation but did not work
Duac Gel: somewhat effective, watch out for bleaching of clothes
Benzoyl Peroxide: same as Duac
Oral antibiotic: may have worked

If you read almost any of the threads in this part of the forum you will discover that the symptoms you mention your retinoic acid topicals gave you are normal. It takes some time for skin to adjust.

What is it with people who are the most ignorant piping up to give advice on topics they little understand? It's almost always these people who are the most verbose as well. Frustrating.

Personally, when I don't know much about a subject I keep quiet, too embarrassed to bark out my ignorance to everyone.

Edit: Also differin is the weakest topical retiniod and is not suggested in the treatment of sun damage.

Edited by Ben - Aus, 07 November 2008 - 12:02 AM.

[Ben]

Ben-Aus,

I identify with your fear of scarring.

I had mild but persistent acne as a teenager that did not respond to or was overly irritated by topicals. I did not want to be "scarred for life."

My derm (from the Univ of Miami - Dr. Baumann's stomping ground) finally prescribed a three month course of Accutane.

It worked beautifully - no negative reaction whatsoever - my skin cleared right up. I'd recommend looking into it if you're so inclined.

Just an anecdote. I'm glad to read that you're having success with the antibiotic therapy.

Best, Mia

Thanks for your reply Mia.

I thought about Accutane when eva suggested it but I'm just so scared of the side effects. "Psychosis? What?"

[Eva Victoria]

Eva,

You're still confused about the phrase "OTC."

OTC means non-prescription and, literally, "over the counter." Anything that you can get in a retail store without a prescription or special process is considered OTC.

Oral syringes are OTC, cosmetic products are OTC, OTC drugs are OTC.

Clearly umbrellas and handbags are also OTC, but it is redundant to say so since one would never need a prescription for them.

OTC cosmetic products are referred to as such because in the US there are also prescription/doctor-applied cosmetic products: botox, benzoyl peroxide 6%, retin-A, nizoral 2%...

Thanks for your kindness to clear up the term OTC.
However, in the US OTC drugs are considered to be Over the counter Drugs that have active pharmaceutical ingredients like hydroquinone, sodium fluoride (like in toothpaste!), all sunscreens (even though they are classified as cosmetics in the EU) in less concentration than RX (prescription) drugs. (Like Hydroquinone at the strength of up to 2% can be bought OTC/without need for prescription but at 4% concentration it is an RX -prescription needed drug.) So handbags as you kindly put it not OTC drugs (at least not yet).
Cosmetics are a completely different category of products without any ingredients classified as actives.

Should you have any further questions about these three very important terms please read the attached document.

Attached Files

•  Regulations_Worldwide.pdf   1.25MB   41 downloads

[rwac]

It has been exactly a week since my last post. So far the acne has worsened. I took a few days break from the retinoid I'm using (.1% tazarotene) to no avail. I'm going to stop using the bioderma photoderm spf 50+ to see if that helps. Wish me luck.

Ben,

Have you considered Light therapy ?

http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=16766

[frederickson]

What is it with people who are the most ignorant piping up to give advice on topics they little understand? It's almost always these people who are the most verbose as well. Frustrating.

Personally, when I don't know much about a subject I keep quiet, too embarrassed to bark out my ignorance to everyone.

funny. you chimed in with the most ignorant response of all on the urine therapy thread, and here you are calling someone else out to task for doing the same thing?

you really may want to heed your own advice before you attack another poster for doing exactly what it is you do yourself. at least mouser actually tried those products before making a judgement instead of reacting like a 3rd grader.

[Ben]

It has been exactly a week since my last post. So far the acne has worsened. I took a few days break from the retinoid I'm using (.1% tazarotene) to no avail. I'm going to stop using the bioderma photoderm spf 50+ to see if that helps. Wish me luck.

Ben,

Have you considered Light therapy ?

http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=16766

I had but the apparatus was too expensive. There's talk in that link of a DIY setup that could be pretty cheap. Thanks a lot! :D