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Suggestions for improvement


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#1 alpha2A

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 03:50 PM


My current regimen of drugs (and or supplements, etc.) is as follows:

* methylphenidate, 108 mg (as Concerta - XR formulation corresponding to immediate rel. 35-40 mg 3x daily)
* sulpiride 150-200 mg (divided into three doses)
* memantine 10-20 mg
* modafinil 200-400 mg (1-2 doses)
* huperzine 200-300 mcg (in 1-2 doses)
* pramiracetam 600-900 mg (in 2-3 doses)
* centrophenoxine 500-1500 mg (in 2-3 doses)
* guanfacine 3-4 mg (in 2-3 doses)

Occasionally also:
* selegiline 5 mg (for additional stimulation)

The problem is that despite the above regimen, my motivation (drive and activity level) isn't what it should be.  Although the sulpiride was very effective for this purpose initially, tolerance developed.  Tolerance has been a problem with methylphenidate also - necessitating breaks - but the addition of memantine seems to have mitigated that problem.

I'm looking for ideas as to how to improve my regimen, especially as far as motivation, working memory and executive function are concerned.

A few of the things that have been tried are as follows.  L-dopa (with benserazide), phenylalanine, tyrosine and phenylethylamine (PEA) were ineffective (Phe, Tyr) or produced side effects (L-dopa, PEA) that outweighed the benefits.  Caffeine (tea, kola nut, guarana) is also practically useless, although I still use it.  Also, sulbutiamine, SAMe, NADH, acetylcarnitine and vinpocetine had few effects, if any.  Dextroamphetamine would be an improvement over methylphenidate in terms of potency, but I'd rather avoid it if possible due to concerns about long-term deleterious neurophysiological adaptions.

Aniracetam and oxiracetam are on the list of substances to try.  I'm also considering buprenorphine, a major feature of which is antagonism of kappa-opioid receptors (which reduce dopamine release).

So, anything else?

#2 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 04:05 PM

Honestly I'm a little surprised that you aren't a supremely productive working machine on that regimen. Is it possible that your expectations are unrealistic? Addition of magnesium (500mg a day of a bioavailable source, not oxide) may reduce tolerance to methylphenidate. Memantine was a good call. Might want to use CDP-Choline instead of centrophenoxine as a source of choline (CDP-Choline enhances dopamine release). I would add a good multi like Ortho-Core, some high EPA fish oil, and maybe some other neuroprotective supps. Also a good diet and daily exercise are key. If your sleep quality/duration is suffering because of all the stimulants, that might be working directly counter to your goals.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 19 May 2008 - 04:08 PM.


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#3 Zoroaster

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 06:42 PM

Yeah you're already taking a lot of the heavy hitters. Honestly, it always kind of bugs me when people say this but, what about your sleep and workout schedule? If you're not already doing it, try running regularly or hitting the gym three times a week (or both). Try making some goals, getting more sleep, getting a girlfriend, seeing a psychologist, etc. I don't think your problem is with your stack. If you take all that stuff and still don't feel motivated, you probably just need something to get motivated about.

Also, is your motivation really low in that you can't get usual things done, or are you chasing after some motivational high that you once felt but no longer do? If its the latter then you're getting into the psychology of addiction and maybe need to rethink the reason your taking your regimen.

#4 alpha2A

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 07:18 PM

Honestly I'm a little surprised that you aren't a supremely productive working machine on that regimen. Is it possible that your expectations are unrealistic?


I don't think so, based on what I was formerly capable of, especially in my teens to early 20s.  At 21-22 or so, things went downhill, culminating in moderately severe depressive episode, and although some of the symptoms thereof - such as low mood and poor self-confidence - have long since dissipated, I have yet to fully recover (I'm 30 now) in terms of performance - hence the drugs.

Addition of magnesium (500mg a day of a bioavailable source, not oxide) may reduce tolerance to methylphenidate. Memantine was a good call. Might want to use CDP-Choline instead of centrophenoxine as a source of choline (CDP-Choline enhances dopamine release). I would add a good multi like Ortho-Core, some high EPA fish oil, and maybe some other neuroprotective supps. Also a good diet and daily exercise are key. If your sleep quality/duration is suffering because of all the stimulants, that might be working directly counter to your goals.


I do take generic multi-vitamins & minerals, fish oil and magnesium; I tend to view them as placebo, which may or may not be entirely correct.

Sleep quantity is sufficient and often excessive, but quality varies.  Sometimes I take cyproheptadine, which EEG studies suggest improve sleep quality, but this drug tends to prolong my sleep a bit too much.

I will probably add some antioxidants at some point.   Exercise is something I need more of, but that's a tough nut to crack as long as motivation is lacking.

#5 stephen_b

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 04:13 PM

I don't think so, based on what I was formerly capable of, especially in my teens to early 20s. At 21-22 or so, things went downhill, culminating in moderately severe depressive episode, and although some of the symptoms thereof - such as low mood and poor self-confidence - have long since dissipated, I have yet to fully recover (I'm 30 now) in terms of performance - hence the drugs.


You might want to take some l-tryptophan at night to make sure your body has all of the serotonin precursors it needs. I take 1000 or 1500 mg daily, and I find that it helps improve mode, resistance to stress, self-esteem, and perseveration.

Stephen

#6 alpha2A

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 01:07 PM

Serotonergics tend to make me more apathetic.

#7 stephen_b

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 06:40 PM

I didn't know that they could induce apathy. A search turned up PMID: 17313684:

"Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor use associates with apathy among depressed elderly: a case-control study"

Conclusion

Even though depression was improved in elderly patients receiving antidepressants, apathy appeared to be greater in patients who were treated with SSRI than that found in patients who were not. Frontal lobe dysfunction due to alteration of serotonin is considered to be one of the possibilities.

Sounds like it's not well understood.

Stephen

Edit: have you read James South's article on tryptophan? He writes about Young and Praag's characterization of "apathetic inhibited" vs. "anxious-agitated" depression, and writes:

Van Praag’s research has shown that for many people suffering depression, combining the amino-acid tyrosine with tryptophan works much better than taking tryptophan alone. These would be Young’s "apathetic inhibited" types, where both the serotonin tranquility/ well-being circuits and the "get up and go" vigorous action dopamine/ noradrenaline circuits are underactive.


Edited by stephen_b, 22 May 2008 - 02:37 AM.


#8 alpha2A

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 09:42 PM

The serotonin-dopamine interplay is rather complex. Basically, 5-HT1A and 5-HT3 boost dopamine, whereas 5-HT2C inhibits. 5-HT2A has a more complex role.

Then there are the opioids, especially the deleterious kappa-receptor, which promotes downregulation of certain dopaminergic sites, including the D2-receptor.

I did manage to get buprenorphine added to my regimen. It is supposed to be a kappa-antagonist and a partial mu-opioid receptor agonist. It's not as good as I'd like it to be, but it does help.

So, now I'm seeking a 5-HT2C antagonist or inverse agonist as well as a long-acting and more potent kappa-antagonist - preferably JDTic - (3R)-7-Hydroxy-N-((1S)-1-[[(3R,4R)-4-(3-hydroxyphenyl)-3,4-dimethyl-1-piperidinyl]methyl]-2-methylpropyl)-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-3-isoquinolinecarboxamide.

If I could block 5-HT2C, I could experiment with serotonergics more freely.

#9 bran319

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 11:49 PM

I want your doctor.

What is your official diagnosis?

Unless you are a schizophrenic I would drop the sulpiride, methylphenidate and gaunfacine, reduce or possibly eliminate the memantine and run the modafinil on it's own.

Fish Oil? If you're not taking it you should be. Shoot for 6grams EPA/DHA a day from a high quality source such as Carlson's or Nordic Naturals.

Consider Rhodiola Rosea. I find it to be enormously helpful for providing energy and motivation. Too much and you will get drowsy. I take 100mgs. of a 3/1% extract twice daily.

You need to exercise. Once you get over the inertia it gets much easier. A regular regimen of endurance and resistance training will go a long way to improving your energy and motivation levels.

Honestly, a lack of motivation on that regimen should be a warning signal for you. Adding more drugs to that cocktail is not thinking in the right direction.

Good luck.

Edited by bran319, 22 August 2008 - 11:50 PM.


#10 DrFeelgood

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Posted 23 August 2008 - 12:05 AM

I did manage to get buprenorphine added to my regimen.


:)

Buprenorphine is a useful drug in some contexts (in the UK, paramedics carry it in ambulances for the roadside treatment of seriously painful injuries!), but in no way would I imagine it could improve motivation (!), especially in combination with some of the other psychotropic drugs you're taking (pretty much ANY of which could cause lethargy and loss of motivation). I'm not doing forum-based diagnoses, but I'd suggest you get those prescriptions reviewed first. Then I'd agree that my first line would be regular exercise and regular sleep. Melatonin might be worth a shot in the first line just to get you back into a routine of sleeping well.

#11 alpha2A

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 11:04 PM

I want your doctor.

I think you would prefer someone more knowledgeable.

What is your official diagnosis?

The ones I currently focus on are ADHD (inattentive type) and depression. The depression may perhaps be better described as dysthymia, as its major feature is long duration rather than high intensity. There is almost no dysphoria, and very little anxiety. However, there's much anhedonia (primarily anticipatory, but also somewhat consummatory) and loss of motivation, interest, initiative and energy; psychomotor performance (coordination, dexterity, etc.) is impaired, although parkinsonian tremor is essentially absent; there is a degree of depersonalisation and derealisation, or in other words, a sense of diminished intensity of sensory awareness, but there are no delusions, hallucinations nor any loss of reality testing; there is a great deal of social withdrawal due to loss of interest; there is a practically complete loss of libido, although physical sexual function remains intact; there is considerable emotional blunting, although not a complete flattening.

The ADHD, the symptoms of which may also overlap with the dysthymia, is characterised by impaired concentration, attention, executive function and working memory. There are impairments in the capacity for organisation, planning and execution that are easily demonstrated by everyday tasks such as reading, writing, constructing, computing, calculating, and so on; the spacial aspect of working memory may be particularly affected, although the impairment is general enough to be seen also in logical, arithmetical, verbal, and other matters especially when the demands approach high levels.

It has lasted since at least the end of the last century, although some symptoms may have lessened or worsened - sometimes gradually as time has past, but usually in response to more or less successful psychopharmacological intervention.

Other diagnoses considered have included schizoid personality disorder (inluding aspects of other personality disorders), social phobia, as welll as depersonalisation and derealisation disorders, but depression and ADHD are general enough to account for most of the pathology.

Unless you are a schizophrenic I would drop the sulpiride, methylphenidate and gaunfacine, reduce or possibly eliminate the memantine and run the modafinil on it's own.

Really, if I received no benefit from them, I would not use them. I should also add that I do not take all of the drugs I've mentioned in this thread every single day. However, the ones you listed are the very core, and I rather skip modafinil, huperzine and pramiracetam than any of them (in fact, I've already done so for most of the past weeks).

Fish Oil? If you're not taking it you should be. Shoot for 6grams EPA/DHA a day from a high quality source such as Carlson's or Nordic Naturals.

I've never noticed an effect from that - even when taken regularly at recommended levels and above, although I admit that I've never used as much as 6 grams for any significant length of time.

Consider Rhodiola Rosea. I find it to be enormously helpful for providing energy and motivation. Too much and you will get drowsy. I take 100mgs. of a 3/1% extract twice daily.

I've been experimenting with it recently, but have noticed little if anything so far.

You need to exercise. Once you get over the inertia it gets much easier. A regular regimen of endurance and resistance training will go a long way to improving your energy and motivation levels.

You may have a point there. The problem is that I've never got to the point where it gets easy or does anything significant to my condition, except for a little increase in strength or stamina.

Honestly, a lack of motivation on that regimen should be a warning signal for you.

Of course, I wouldn't have mentioned it, if it were not of significant concern to me.

Adding more drugs to that cocktail is not thinking in the right direction.
Good luck.


Wherher more, different, or both, good luck is indeed what would come in handy. Thank you.

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#12 alpha2A

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 11:12 PM

;)
Buprenorphine is a useful drug in some contexts (in the UK, paramedics carry it in ambulances for the roadside treatment of seriously painful injuries!),

In my experience, the drug has no significant analgesic properties. I'd rather use codeine or even paracetamol for that.

but in no way would I imagine it could improve motivation (!),

Insomuch as the endogenous opioid system interacts with the dopaminergic system, there are good reasons to believe that a drug with the properties of buprenorphine might affect motivation, and so it does - just not sufficiently at the doses I've used so far.

especially in combination with some of the other psychotropic drugs you're taking (pretty much ANY of which could cause lethargy and loss of motivation).

Correct - depending on how they are used.

I'm not doing forum-based diagnoses, but I'd suggest you get those prescriptions reviewed first.

They are the result of years of systematic trial and failure of drugs and other interventions.

Melatonin might be worth a shot in the first line just to get you back into a routine of sleeping well.

I've been addressing that recently, but it's too early to conclude anything.




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