302 replies to this topic

[thefirstimmortal]

You have not converted a man because you have silenced him.

[thefirstimmortal]

Precious are the freedoms we cherish yet sometimes take for granted, the diversity of heritage and experience that strengthens us, a society that celebrates tol­erance and community, and a belief in the power of words to change the world. This country was founded on ideas-freedom, equality, the pursuit of happiness-and the fact that we have the oldest written Constitution in the world is proof of the enduring power of those principles. Those words and ideas have drawn millions to this country in search of the American dream, perhaps the will drive as many to this site it we practice those ideals.

[Jace Tropic]

Lazarus: The Forum Categories really need a better Subcategory structure that better reflects the Topic distinction but we are all still working on this and it is an evolving "State of Awareness".

I’ve only seen this in newsgroups, but of course those interfaces aren’t always pretty. The software that is being used for this forum, could it be customized so that we have basically the same interface but with the subthreads function that closes and expands like they do in newsgroups?

Jace

[Bruce Klein]

Jace.. this is something I'd like to add. Thanks.

[thefirstimmortal]

Where do the Leaders and Directors stand on these issues? We should know how everyone stands on these issues, otherwise, how do we know who to vote for?

[thefirstimmortal]

I'm posting this for a little refresher Bruce

New version I'm working on now...

ImmInst User Agreement

- Registration: Members must be 13 year old or older. 

No Argument

- Privacy Statement: Information posted to the forums becomes public information. ImmInst is not responsible for the privacy practices of its member.

Perfect

- Copyright Guidelines: When posting copyrighted material, members should only post as much material as needed to make the relevant point.  Members should give credit to the original author and post reference information. 

No Argument

- Individual Views: Posts by individual members do not necessarily represent the views of ImmInst.

Perfect

- External Linkage: ImmInst contains links to other web sites and files. ImmInst can not be held responsible for the content on these sites and files.

Perfect

- Malicious Attacks: ImmInst has a zero tolerance for anyone who tries to disrupt the usual flow of information in the ImmInst forums or chat room.  Examples include, but are not limited to, such things as spamming and hacking.  Such individuals will be banned from posting either immediately or after due warning depending on the individual incident.

Perfect

- Authority: ImmInst leadership has the authority to edit, move or remove any post. ImmInst leaders will use this authority if they feel the mission is in jeopardy.

This one needs a little tweaking. But relax, let's revisit this in a few days.

[thefirstimmortal]

oops.. thechnical difficulties

[thefirstimmortal]

I posted that this one needed a little tweaking

- Authority: ImmInst leadership has the authority to edit, move or remove any post. ImmInst leaders will use this authority if they feel the mission is in jeopardy.

The problem lies not in the intent, which is to use the authority to protect the mission if for some reason some post should leave the mission in jeorpardy, the problem lies in the technical format of the wording.

Consider how this is drafted, let's break it down.

The first sentence states, "ImmInst leadership has the authority to edit, move or remove any post."

This grammatical unit that is syntactically independent of the second sentence is a stand alone provision giving complete control to the leadership to edit, move or remove any post. Now, the ability to move for any reason seems to be ok, because much like the cacher forum, you need to be able to shift an organize, that doesn't hamper the free exchange of ideas. The right to edit or remove however does, and as drafted there are no boubries because it is not tied to the second sentence. So in reality there are no line drawn around the right to edit or remove, thus giving zero protection of speech.

If for example you crafted it to read:

ImmInst leadership has the authority to edit, move or remove any post that causes or immanently threatens to cause the mission to be in jeopardy.

That would be one perfect way to achieve full protection for both ImmInst while protecting posters at the same time.

Or it could read;
ImmInst leadership has the authority to edit, move or remove any post for the reason set below. ImmInst leaders will use this authority only if they feel the mission is in jeopardy.

That's just another variation I propose.

[thefirstimmortal]

Let's take the proposed bylaw out for a walk, and apply it to the issue of the editing of the "Fuck the Draft" thread to see if this proposed draft would offer full protection for both ImmInst while protecting posters at the same time.

ImmInst leadership has the authority to edit, move or remove any post that causes or immanently threatens to cause the mission to be in jeopardy.

Under this proposed by law, the question that would have to be answered is does the post threaten the mission to be in jeopardy. Since the post is in support of not allowing governments to force people into the service, thus endangering there lives in war, clearly this thread is very very mission friendly.

Let's explore the real nature of the forced content change. (I take no issue with CarbonX making the change as he was doing so under the old wording, and could have done so under the new wording, I use this to show why the wording should be altered.) The content was changed, not because it threatened the mission, but because of one persons arbitrary judgment or preference, in other words, CarboniX simply didn't like it.

When I stated that this is a perfect example of why this power should not be given to anyone, I did not seperate the two issues, so Bruce's commentary was fair. I did not seperate the two powers that I'm addressing here, the one of that protects the site, and that which protects the posters content.

For clarification, the power to change content or expression should be protected, that power should not be given to anyone. The power to protect the site should be retained by the leaders.

In the instant case, it should be found that under the proposed bylaw (if it existed), the mission would not in Jeopardy, and the thread allowed to stand.

[thefirstimmortal]

I would like to offer for an example a sentence, or paragraph, or some kind of post that would threaten the mission of ImmInst.

Try as I might, I can not for the life of me compose such an example, so I am asking for someone to create an example of such, something that would serve as an example of something that would threaten the mission or put it in jeopardy

[thefirstimmortal]

Take a walk with me
Down Memory lane
Bruce as been here
as long as anybody in the game

I’ve only seen this in newsgroups, but of course those interfaces aren’t always pretty. The software that is being used for this forum, could it be customized so that we have basically the same interface but with the subthreads function that closes and expands like they do in newsgroups?

How important is this issue? Very important. Bruce and I had forum groups at about the same time, the old BJ site, and the Fountain Society. Both sites at the time were fine for the chat load in the begining. They both kind of went something like this, you post, it went to the end of the line.

But when growth happened, let's consider what happened.
Mine was seperated by months, so you had to read from the begining as I recall. No big deal when you had 40 to 60 posts per month, but when it hit 300 members, and 1000 posts it was too hard to keep up.
Who wants to go thru 975 posts to read the 25 that hold interest. What did I do, I made a feeble attempt to try do something else. That something else never hapened because I knew little (OK nothing) about how to build sites.

What did BJ do
Even before it became an issue he built this site. He moved with lightning speed, and flawlessly transformed the site. From a text site to a graphic, well laid out site, complete with email, pm's, chat rooms, I was so impressed, that rather than try to solve the problems at Fountain Society, I emailed everyone in my group to invite them here. I set the sign post up so to speak for my group (a few followed), and even abandoned my own site for this one. I recognize talent when I see it.

Judging by past performance, if history repeats itself, Bruce will continue to stay on top of site development because he will look at advice (such as you listed above) and respond.

I think this site operates exceptionally well, but I don't have anything to compare it to. This is the only group I belong to now.

[Jace Tropic]

thefirstimmortal: I would like to offer for an example a sentence, or paragraph, or some kind of post that would threaten the mission of ImmInst.

Try as I might, I can not for the life of me compose such an example, so I am asking for someone to create an example of such, something that would serve as an example of something that would threaten the mission or put it in jeopardy

I’m not sure if anything could really threaten the mission itself. If ImmInst disappeared tomorrow, I’m sure there would still be people working toward immortality. Doesn’t ImmInst have a mission for following through with its stated mission? Is it a question whether the stated mission would be in jeopardy or ImmInst’s implicit mission for following through with its stated mission?

I think ImmInst does have a right to privacy, however, as Lazarus suggested in earlier posts. For example, if someone hacked into the ImmInst database undetected and began posting personal information of its members and leaders in the forums, this could indirectly threaten ImmInst, the agent itself which is interested in following through with its second-level mission—the stated mission.

I’m not sure how various languages other than English should be handled either. What if someone decides to saturate the forums with messages written in different languages and with variable syntaxes as to make it hard for us to tell the difference whether or not it is spamming? What if they include some English words arbitrarily within those posts? What if they were to increasingly include English words arbitrarily within those posts? What if these particular kinds of messages got to the point where they included all English words but were still incoherent? How do we determine the difference between these posts and someone else who begins saturating the forums with incoherent English but nonetheless began doing so with English words?

Jace

[reason]

I think this site operates exceptionally well, but I don't have anything to compare it to. This is the only group I belong to now.

With regard to large forum organization, take a look at this one:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/

It's one of the largest and most active I know of that uses the traditional messageboard format, and it works very well; has a great sense of community.

OBActivism: this community raised $16,000 from its own members in a matter of a few days to pay for its own hosting a month ago.

IMHO, community is more important than technical tweaks. Providing you have moderation and trusted community moderators, I think you're set.

Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme
reason@longevitymeme.org
http://www.longevitymeme.org/

[Lazarus Long]

MOveon.Org's Action Forum is doing fantastically regardless of whether you approve of its political persuasion. It is indisputable that they have demonstrated a powerful ability to manage an incredible number of people. They respect a wide degree of speech but they are "moderated." And you sign an agreement to participate very similar to our own.

I have observed their activity for a long time and their software does allow the kinds of cross over threading we are looking for but it is not as flexible as ours in other respects.
http://www.actionfor...m/?forum_id=223

They also change the front page forums in a top down manner and control where the posting is concentrated this way rather than allowing the kind of relatively quick archival access that this forum is very good at once you master its nuances. Though it should be noted that their population is measured in the hundreds of thousands now with a significant percentage being active.

Frankly I feel most of the posting there is becoming overwhelmed by the numbers. But they can raise 100's of thousands of dollars in hours or days, and have done so recently to fight FCC. In fact one single member, George Soros gave five million dollars to them to fight Bush and promised more in matching funds.

Another forum with very similar format to ours that I have pointed out before to Bruce was the Anne McCafferey site, where the membership exceeds eight thousand world wide and manages a daily traffic quite well of almost ten times ours.
http://forum.annemccaffrey.org/

[Bruce Klein]

Thanks William,

Taking your helpful suggestions.. here's a rewording.

Authority: ImmInst Leadership has the authority to edit, move or remove any post which does not follow Posting Guidelines. ImmInst leaders will use this authority only if they feel the mission is in jeopardy.

[thefirstimmortal]

I think ImmInst does have a right to privacy, however, as Lazarus suggested in earlier posts. For example, if someone hacked into the ImmInst database undetected and began posting personal information of its members and leaders in the forums, this could indirectly threaten ImmInst, the agent itself which is interested in following through with its second-level mission—the stated mission.

That was covered early on in the thread, and I agreed that activities like hacking and such were things that were proper to put in the by-laws.

[thefirstimmortal]

With regard to large forum organization, take a look at this one:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/

It's one of the largest and most active I know of that uses the traditional messageboard format, and it works very well; has a great sense of community.

OBActivism: this community raised $16,000 from its own members in a matter of a few days to pay for its own hosting a month ago.

IMHO, community is more important than technical tweaks. Providing you have moderation and trusted community moderators, I think you're set.

Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme
reason@longevitymeme.org
http://www.longevitymeme.org/

I thank you Reason for coming forward with your views.

[thefirstimmortal]

Thanks William,

Taking your helpful suggestions.. here's a rewording.
QUOTE
Authority: ImmInst Leadership has the authority to edit, move or remove any post which does not follow Posting Guidelines. ImmInst leaders will use this authority only if they feel the mission is in jeopardy..

I'll take this one out and test drive it for you, but I have some other posts that I would like to drop first. Hopefully I be able to do it tonight, but if not, definately tomorrow. It's supposed to rain all day [B)]

[David]

Will

"Try as I might, I can not for the life of me compose such an example, so I am asking for someone to create an example of such, something that would serve as an example of something that would threaten the mission or put it in jeopardy."

I have an example for you there Will. If someone wandered in and started to suggest militant violent action, like, suggesting someone like Leon Kass be assasinated. Under circumstances like those, I think the directors would be justified in deleting posts. Probably in alerting the athorities too. Primarily because its just plain evil and wrong, and secondarily because its probably a violation of hate crime laws, and could get people arrested.

That's about it though!

Have I had a couple of posts deleted, or is my exam studied out memory failing me? [huh]

David

[thefirstimmortal]

Have I had a couple of posts deleted, or is my exam studied out memory failing me?  [huh]

David

What Posts appear to be gone?

[Lazarus Long]

I believe he is referring to this one

Masturbation, the key to longevity?

It is not deleted but it is archived in the Catcher.

David it is a good example of both the problem and the potential solution as it wasn't gone but simply filed away from sight. It can be retrieved and resurrected.

We should all be so lucky )

[thefirstimmortal]

I believe he is referring to this one

Masturbation, the key to longevity?

It is not deleted but it is archived in the Catcher.

David it is a good example of both the problem and the potential solution as it wasn't gone but simply filed away from sight.  It can be retrieved and resurrected.

We should all be so lucky )

I could be wrong, but I think he is reffering to something else. If my memory serves me well, BJ already told him where that one was.

[thefirstimmortal]

There was an idea yesterday forwarded by Bruce of opening a seperate forum where freedom of speech and expression would be preserved and all disputed posting that fell outside of bylaw B would be placed, and anyone who had material that was potentially offensive and such would be placed. That is the greatest idea that has been forwarded to date. Let's explore in detail the wisdom of such a plan.

[Bruce Klein]

Yes.. good idea.. would the Catcher serve this purpose?

[thefirstimmortal]

Yes.. good idea.. would the Catcher serve this purpose?

The Catcher is a place that is in the Resources, with the caption "Moved and inactive topics are placed gently here", which is kinda like a cryonics trash can for saving memes. It does not appear to have subcategories, or the ability to create such. The proper thing to do is to place on the very bottom of the forum in the forums, a titled forum (ie;First Amendment forum) that indicates what kind of forum it is. Also, a bylaw should be created that declares that one single section protected from censorship. Ample warning should be given in the bylaw that references the section that it could contain offensive material. That way every new member upon signing up will know in advance the nature of that section, in addition to the prohibitions in the other ones.

Now hold off on a response Bruce, it's about 7:30, I'm going to post about this one idea until midnight. I'm going to review the important past issues, that brings us up to today, and review the many benefits
of the current idea, and show how if done properly, it will promote a better site, a more inclusive site, and I will show how we can enhance well-being of the whole community while providing improvment to the ability to advanced the mission statement. Win-Win.

[thefirstimmortal]

OK, the old bylaw A stated

(3) Full Members can lose membership status if at any time in violation of the user agreement (Bylaw A),

Bylaw A
ImmInst members must adhere to the following agreement or risk losing membership privileges.

    Any user who finds material posted by another user as being offensive or objectionable will be encouraged to contact an ImmInst leader. ImmInst leaders are authorized by you to remove or modify material submitted by you to these forums for any reason that we think constitutes a violation of our policies, whether stated, implied or not.

Basically the problems were that the bylaw was vague and standardless, full of different interpretations. Probably the only thing everyone could agree on is that we all could not agree what was offensive or objectionable. Consider the new by law

ImmInst Leadership has the authority to edit, move or remove any post which does not follow Posting Guidelines. ImmInst leaders will use this authority only if they feel the mission is in jeopardy.

Now we must look at what the posting guidlines are. The posting guidlines are as follows.

The following guidelines are here to promote constructive and thought provoking discussion.  Please consider these guidelines carefully when participating in forum discussions.

Please Be Courteous
Please Be Informative
Please Be Relevant
Please Be Accessible

Forum posts and topics which fail to adhere to these guidelines are subject to moderation as granted by the ImmInst User Agreement.

  COURTEOUS

    * Be polite when replying to others. .
    * Avoid using derogatory language.
    * Maintain a constructive attitude. 
    * Attack ideas and not people.

  INFORMATIVE

    * Be informative and clear when posting.
    * Before creating a new topic, check to see if the topic hasn't already been created elsewhere. 

  RELEVANT

    * Avoid making duplicate posts.
    * Post topics under the appropriate forums.
    * Keep follow-up posts on topic.
    * Avoid posting advertisements or Spam. 

  ACCESSIBLE

    * Be sure that the posted text is readable.
    * Use emoticons/smiles sparingly.
    * Post pictures when relevant by not excessively.

If we did not set up a seperate forum, we would now have a bigger mess on our hands, because the relevant but vague terms have been expanded. They now include, Courteous, Informative, Relevant. They further allow for possible censorship on terms of peoples "constructive attitude", "politeness", how informative and clear" someone is, and someone my be censored for "smiling" excessively (Use emoticons/smiles sparingly).

Now Granted, the power is not supposed to be used unlesss someone feels the mission is in Jeopardy, but that raises separate issues. But none of these issues need be explored if a special forum is set up.

In fact, if this site had that special forum, I would argue that the language "ImmInst leaders will use this authority only if they feel the mission is in jeopardy" should be dropped, thus increasing the powers of the leaders over the main site.

Why would I argue that...
Next Post

[David]

Actually Will, I wouldn't worryabout it too much, it was a post based on a false premise of V4B being consigned to cyber death, and me protesting against that possibility, but it appears he hasn't, so it really doesn't matter.

Is the Masturbation post being reinstalled? Please?

Sensation and perception Exam in 15 mins. No way I'm gonna pass this one, its all about eyeballs and tongues and eardrums. Not really my cup of tea, all those big words for naming body parts and theories. My poor working class brain is all frazzled....

David

[Bruce Klein]

The Masterbation Thread has been moved back to General Discussion.

[thefirstimmortal]

The Next Post.

T.F.I.,

Look I can deal with it in conversation because people can't always sit and think about what they are going to say - they need short and simple ways of getting an emotional point accross. But when someone makes a speech, does a thead to tell of something, writes a book etc they have a lot more time to flesh out the idea and why they would normaly feel the need to use such language to illustrate it.

Life should be like many fine silks - warming you
-------------------------------------------------holding you
-----------------------------------------------------head to toe.
Why does life scorn me, laugh at me, while it strips these layers

----------------from my skin.

Instead of:

Aging sucks goat balls.

Thats my point, and I sure don't see any research papers saying "the PCR machine was acting really fu**ed up when we did this so take this paper with a fu**ing grain of salt, OK?"

The writings that deal with a wider range of people don't swear in them - we don't need to swear in ours.

Carbonix Post best captures the essence of what some seek here. CarboniX (and there are others) want a friendly work environment, one that fosters a professional feeling, that they feel will help them work better in order to achieve the ImmInst primary object. CarboniX is of course correct.

Since ImmInst needs people to help it achieve certain goals, it should provide working spaces that will foster the main mission. CarboniX is currently in a Program to study Cellular and Molecular Biology, and he is focusing on a cure for aging by working with Stem Cells. That's cutting edge, that's vitally important.

What Carbonix (and others) need to help them work, is to make an environment more acceptable by removing unpleasant or offensive features. I agree that providing him that work space is of vital importance.

I also find that.....
Next post

[thefirstimmortal]

As stated above, CarbonX is working in the field of science, he is doing important work
He favors a protective sterile environment (as do others), and I'm for honoring my neighbors choice.

Last summer when I left the site, I intended to come back and post on a topic very near and dear to my heart. Money. That all changed when I read the problems that Cryonics organizations were having with the government. My mission this year is to structure cases for these organization, and I need my work space too.

The work I intend to do is every bit as important to this sites stated "mission statement". I need space to bring up and nurture my work in order for it to bear fruit. In order to advance work, I neeed an environment that fosters conditions that promote the growth and development of my legal artistic talent. I cannot produce work unless those intrinsic and indispensable properties exist. The most important ingredient, the crucial element that serves to characterize that space is freedom, the absence of authority. I am a free individual sov­ereign being, and I need an environment that is conducive to freedom in order to fight for the ultimate freedom from Death.

I understand your environment, now I ask you to understand mine.

When decision-making bodies with power are gathered to hear my arguments, you must understand that the dynamic is one of war. That's right, the contest is war. Any other paradigm is an illusion. It is not a mere contest, like athletes plunging down the hill on skis for the fastest time. It is not a dance in which the most graceful will be rewarded with a medal. This is war. And to the victor go the spoils.

In such a contest, there will be an opponent who speaks for power, namely the government, and the odds are against me.

When I take on the Government in the defense of Cryonics, the government will have unlimited resources to wear me into submission. The government is not going to be interested in justice. They will be interested in winning. When I contest the government, ostensibly the organ of the people, I will be facing the oligarchy behind the government. I will face money. The government is not interested in our lives. It is interested in its administration and interested in the maintenance of power.

You have little idea of the months, indeed, sometimes the years that I may have to spend in lonely isolation preparing my cases. Indeed, I will watch the reflection of the rising sun on my computer screen many a morning while my opponents have sleep their lives away peacefully.

If we are serious about achieving our dream of life without death, than we each must work on the piece that appeals to us most, the final picture will be a composite of our dreams.