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Another nootropic another disappointment...


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#1 wootwoot

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 12:38 AM


I recently picked up some picamilon from Relentless Improvement (not that the vendor matters they have been great). Anyways these are 100mg capsules. I started this morning on an empty stomach taking 2 before work. After 2 hours I felt nothing so I thought I would take 1 more. About an hour before lunch I take one more. I have felt nothing all day from this. No stress reduction and no nootropic effect. I am getting tired of trying nootropics that have little to no effect. I am starting to think that most of these are garbage and I am starting to see why so many people view supplements as a joke. I still have faith though and take my resveratrol but this whole nootropic thing is a real joke. If anyone has a suggestion on a nootropic that can be felt please let me know. I may just have to go to the doctor and get put on ADD meds instead.

#2 ntenhue

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 01:09 AM

Similar dissapointments for me too.
Piracetam and choline combo did nothing for me even after a month of taking it (I tried various doses, everything from from 100mg to 8g at a time).
I'm probably one of those 'non-responders' to the stuff. Does anyone think its worth me trying any of the other 'racetams?
Currently experimenting with Ginkgo but I'm guessing I won't see any results for at least a month. That is if I do notice any results at all.

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#3 stargazer

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 05:32 AM

Nootropics doesn't work except fishoil, amphetamine, methylphenidate, modafinil and perhaps bacopa monnieri (doubtful though). Get a prescription for chosen medication and enjoy life in the fast lane.

#4 mystery

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 05:09 AM

I've also experienced similar dissapointments. I've tried lots and lots noots and supplements. Also a very large number of herbs, and even some prescription drugs. I often lose interested, then try more stuff. I recently purchased a sublingual B vitamin complex of coenzyme forms of B vitamins. It probably won't really help, but I need to know that. It never hurt to try. Now, I'll be interested to see just what kind of negative impact stuff has on me. I'm seeing how my born with brain chemistry and function is good by experiencing how this stuff messes it up. This is a journey that I am taking, and I think it leads to just accepting what I am. I'll probably never get what I set out to have, but I'll learn something at least.

I'm starting to think the problem is really system wide. And I know I'm probably quite similar to a lot of others seeking out nootropics. My brain operates as a system, and it does so now pretty good with all of the various sub systems working together in balance. As a system it just can't perform as well as what's acceptable to others. It may perform sub par because of developmental problems, or a poor combination of genes. But, it could be a lot worse. I can tweak the chemistry and get a marginal performance boost, or overclock it (with caffeine, or other stims) to get a fair boost in performance, but these can have a serious negative impact, namely they tend to make me feel like s***. To get better performance, what is really needed is a new system. Hence, the expectation is unrealistic. But hey, this is tough to accept, so I continue on the same path. I don't know, maybe there's something out there that can really benefit me, but I doubt it at this point. Still, even for a chance, I'll give everything a try.

Nootropics doesn't work except fishoil, amphetamine, methylphenidate, modafinil and perhaps bacopa monnieri (doubtful though).


I've tried fishoil and it just made me anxious. Same with flax seed oil. Going to try organic flax seed oil. Tried ritalin (methylphenidate) and it made me sleepy. Tried modafinil and it made my muscles tense, and I didn't feel tired after staying up for more than 20 hours but nothing much else. Tried bacopa monnieri and it made my body temperature rise, but no desirable effects. I could go on. I'm almost sure if you mention a supplement or noot, I've tried it and could give you my experience, but this is not very useful information because you might respond quite differently. I would really like to try amphetamine, but that stuff is hard to get ahold for obvious reasons.

#5 Ghostrider

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 05:32 AM

This is a journey that I am taking, and I think it leads to just accepting what I am. I'll probably never get what I set out to have, but I'll learn something at least.


I have had a similar experience so far. So far, only ALCAR, NADH, and maybe some untangible effects from Fish Oil, Choline, phosphatidylserium, DLPA, etc. have produced any effect. But honestly, I did not know what to expect. I still take Fish Oil and Bacopa for the neuroprotective effects. But these are all supplements, if they produced acute effects for everyone, then it would be sold at the local coffee shop. I do think though that some benefit can be derived through careful use and experimentation. Check your expectations.

#6 wootwoot

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 07:05 AM

I think we need to have a realistic discussion on this forum about what works and what doesn't. I feel like a lot of people are getting placebo effects on these nootropics and this is why you don't see them sold in more places. Drugs like ritalin and adderall actually help mental performance and have tons of studies on them proving their effectiveness. If one doesn't work well for someone they usually try the other. In here if one nootropic doesn't work it is like here try another, no wait that didn't work here try this, etc. I would like profound effects that are seen in prescription ADD medication from nootropics but I am not able to find that. I am looking for better cognitive abilities and so far nootropics have let me down.

#7 celavie

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 10:17 AM

If anyone has a suggestion on a nootropic that can be felt please let me know.

Caffeine in the form of coffee has been my mainstay for over 30 years. If you can't "feel" a strong espresso you are probably dead.

Now that we've established that nooptropics are for real, the only remaining question is what works (and for whom.) It's not surprising to me at all that different people respond differently to all the various potentially nootropic substances.

I tend to pay more attention to published research rather than to the anecdotal stuff. Some supplements (such as Ginkgo) have demonstrated efficacy; other less well researched supplements and drugs are still in the "possibly interesting but still unproven" column.

Pyritinol and CDC choline (seem to) do nothing for me. Ginkgo and theanine do more. Caffeine and modafinil have clearly noticable and predictable effects.

But "clearly noticable" isn't necessarilly the only (or even best) gauge of efficacy, of course.

#8 stephen_b

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 02:06 PM

Here's some speculation, feel free to criticize: you need to have normalized neurotransmitter levels before gaging the effects of nootropics.

Here's a blurb from LEF's Rise & Shine product:

When we drink coffee or other quick-release caffeine beverages, there is a surge of noradrenaline release in the brain that gives us a burst of energy. The problem is that this sudden release of noradrenaline depletes its precursor, L-phenylalanine, thereby causing the caffeine “letdown” effect so many people experience later in the day. By taking L-phenylalanine and other noradrenaline factors with caffeine, many people are able to achieve sustained energy levels throughout the day. The reason is that the L-phenylalanine induces more noradrenaline to be produced in the brain.(1)(2)

I do take 250 mg citocoline with (usually) aniracetam, but it wasn't working yesterday. I had low energy and motivation without improvement with coffee. After supplementing with l-phenylalanine, I got my mojo back. I was also a bit depleted from getting less sleep than I needed this week.

I've been taking l-tryptophan for a couple of months, so I would expect that serotonin depletion wasn't the cause. That leaves noradrenaline (norepinephrine) as my prime suspect.

1. J Psychiatry Neurosci. 2001 May;26(3):247-51.
2. Acta Paediatr Suppl. 1994 Dec;407:86-8.

#9 wootwoot

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 08:34 PM

Why do nootropics have an effect on some and not on others unless they are placebo effects? A doctor will put you out with an anesthetic without having to question whether or not it will effect different people differently? If you have a bacterial infection you are given antibiotics without any second guessing. Caffeine, ritalin, and adderall don't seem to have all of these conflicting reports about their effectiveness.

#10 Ghostrider

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 10:03 PM

Why do nootropics have an effect on some and not on others unless they are placebo effects? A doctor will put you out with an anesthetic without having to question whether or not it will effect different people differently? If you have a bacterial infection you are given antibiotics without any second guessing. Caffeine, ritalin, and adderall don't seem to have all of these conflicting reports about their effectiveness.


Psychostimulants affect people in different ways. Give someone with ADHD adderall and they become focused. Give someone without ADHD adderall and they start bouncing off walls and feeling like they are on speed. Otherwise, why would not everyone be taking it?

I do agree though, there's no guessing if I feel an effect with caffeine. Yesterday, I could not fall asleep until about 2 AM (usually I go to bed around 12:30). I was wondering why I was up so late, especially considering that I have been taking naps after work for the past 4 days and yesterday, I skipped my nap. I realized that the decaffeinated tea that I drank was not caffeine free and since I had not consumed caffeine in about 20 days...that's the reason why. Caffeine is probably my favorite smart drug when taken only when needed with long breaks in between consumption. Even ALCAR is a distant second, but much more sustainable.

Edited by Ghostrider, 30 May 2008 - 10:08 PM.


#11 atomic

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 11:46 PM

After experiencing many nootropical disappointments of my own, I too have begun questioning how real they are. As we've seen on this very forum, it's trivial for vendors to plant "experts" whose true purpose is to drive demand. One person was outed, but how many covert spammers still remain, or are created anew every day? Someone who buys drugs over the internet is obviously willing to accept a certain amount of risk, but who even knows what's really in the stuff we're buying and putting in our bodies... One forum rips one vendor, a different forum rips another. It's scary.

Edited by atomic, 30 May 2008 - 11:48 PM.


#12 wootwoot

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 06:17 AM

Psychostimulants affect people in different ways. Give someone with ADHD adderall and they become focused. Give someone without ADHD adderall and they start bouncing off walls and feeling like they are on speed. Otherwise, why would not everyone be taking it?


I think this is a common fallacy. You can give anyone adderall and if they try to focus themselves they will be able to stay on task like no other. Amphetamines are pretty universal. This whole ADHD argument is perpetuated by the medical industry.

#13 wootwoot

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 06:18 AM

After experiencing many nootropical disappointments of my own, I too have begun questioning how real they are. As we've seen on this very forum, it's trivial for vendors to plant "experts" whose true purpose is to drive demand. One person was outed, but how many covert spammers still remain, or are created anew every day? Someone who buys drugs over the internet is obviously willing to accept a certain amount of risk, but who even knows what's really in the stuff we're buying and putting in our bodies... One forum rips one vendor, a different forum rips another. It's scary.


Selling nootropics sounds like a profitable business model. You sell someone on one supplement, they say it doesn't work, then you sell them another. You keep selling different supplements to the same people until they have tried them all. People want them to work so they keep going for more and more unproven supplements.

#14 Ghostrider

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 06:23 AM

Psychostimulants affect people in different ways. Give someone with ADHD adderall and they become focused. Give someone without ADHD adderall and they start bouncing off walls and feeling like they are on speed. Otherwise, why would not everyone be taking it?


I think this is a common fallacy. You can give anyone adderall and if they try to focus themselves they will be able to stay on task like no other. Amphetamines are pretty universal. This whole ADHD argument is perpetuated by the medical industry.


If it benefits everyone then how come it is difficult for people without ADHD to get a prescription? There must be some risks and tradeoffs to taking it.

#15 Ghostrider

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 06:37 AM

[quote][quote name='Ghostrider' post='242481' date='30-May 2008, Someone who buys drugs over the internet is obviously willing to accept a certain amount of risk, but who even knows what's really in the stuff we're buying and putting in our bodies... One forum rips one vendor, a different forum rips another. It's scary.[/quote]

There are risks to almost everything. However, look around and you can probably identify some suppliers and brands which are likely to be more reliable than others -- those suppliers who have built up a reputation over several years are probably less willing to lose it overnight. You can buy from suppliers which offer 3rd party testing, ask them for their documentation certifying the test. Actually, the supplements from Costco, Walmart, Target, Safeway are all probably good...those stores would not be willing to lose their reputation over contaminated supplements. I agree though, you definitely have to be careful about what you buy.

#16 wootwoot

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 08:05 AM

Psychostimulants affect people in different ways. Give someone with ADHD adderall and they become focused. Give someone without ADHD adderall and they start bouncing off walls and feeling like they are on speed. Otherwise, why would not everyone be taking it?


I think this is a common fallacy. You can give anyone adderall and if they try to focus themselves they will be able to stay on task like no other. Amphetamines are pretty universal. This whole ADHD argument is perpetuated by the medical industry.


If it benefits everyone then how come it is difficult for people without ADHD to get a prescription? There must be some risks and tradeoffs to taking it.


Yes there are risks and tradeoffs but my point is that drugs like adderall actually work. Nootropics are dodgy at best. People talk up nootropics in here but there seem to be a lot of people myself included that get little to no benefit from Nootropics. If so many people get little to no benefit that sounds like a placebo effect. "I am taking this pill no wonder I feel smarter today, it surely can't be due to the good night of sleep I got for once"

Edited by wootwoot, 31 May 2008 - 08:07 AM.


#17 atomic

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 08:28 AM

Yeah.

To quote myself:

As we've seen on this very forum, it's trivial for vendors to plant "experts" whose true purpose is to drive demand. One person was outed, but how many covert spammers still remain, or are created anew every day?


I wonder...

Some excellent points, wootwoot.

Edited by atomic, 31 May 2008 - 08:31 AM.


#18 Zoroaster

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 08:45 AM

Psychostimulants affect people in different ways. Give someone with ADHD adderall and they become focused. Give someone without ADHD adderall and they start bouncing off walls and feeling like they are on speed. Otherwise, why would not everyone be taking it?


I think this is a common fallacy. You can give anyone adderall and if they try to focus themselves they will be able to stay on task like no other. Amphetamines are pretty universal. This whole ADHD argument is perpetuated by the medical industry.


If it benefits everyone then how come it is difficult for people without ADHD to get a prescription? There must be some risks and tradeoffs to taking it.


Yes there are risks and tradeoffs but my point is that drugs like adderall actually work. Nootropics are dodgy at best. People talk up nootropics in here but there seem to be a lot of people myself included that get little to no benefit from Nootropics. If so many people get little to no benefit that sounds like a placebo effect. "I am taking this pill no wonder I feel smarter today, it surely can't be due to the good night of sleep I got for once"


Many nootropics have been proven to have real physical effects in many people based on double-blind placebo studies. I'm not debating that most nootropics are junk, they most certainly are. But some have been proven to work for most people and that's a fact. And if you think ADD drugs are any different then you're not that familiar with ADD drugs. I'm currently working with a psychiatrist to find a good drug to treat my ADD and any psychiatrist will tell you that Aderall, Ritalin, Strattera, etc definitely DO NOT affect everyone the same way. Aderall does indeed hype some people up and put some others to sleep. Its a bizarre but well documented fact. The SSRI's, or antianxiety meds have varying effects for different people as well. Its an area that we don't yet understand very well but its aparrent that everyone's brain chemistry is different.

As a personal example, I'm currently testing out one of the most powerful antianxiety meds on the market. They warned me that I would probably fall asleep the first few times I took it and that I should work my way up because the effect is strong. Instead I took the maximum dose the first day and I felt absolutely nothing. I wasn't tired or anything. Its been three days in a row now I've taken the max dosage and I have yet to feel anything at all. Does that mean that this drug, which has been proven effective in multiple trials and helps millions of people, is a joke? Does it mean that everyone else who's experiencing benefits is just fooling themselves? Nope. It just doesn't work for me.

Its unfortunate these nootropics haven't worked for you. Welcome to the world of drugs.

#19 praline

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 03:37 PM

Why do nootropics have an effect on some and not on others unless they are placebo effects? A doctor will put you out with an anesthetic without having to question whether or not it will effect different people differently? If you have a bacterial infection you are given antibiotics without any second guessing. Caffeine, ritalin, and adderall don't seem to have all of these conflicting reports about their effectiveness.



In the case of antibiotics, a culture is done first to determine what antibiotic is to be given. Some classes or sub-types of ABX may not work on a given person with a given infection. For anesthetics, certain ones work better in certain cases. This is true for all drugs as everyones chemisty is a little different.

#20 Ghostrider

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 05:43 PM

Psychostimulants affect people in different ways. Give someone with ADHD adderall and they become focused. Give someone without ADHD adderall and they start bouncing off walls and feeling like they are on speed. Otherwise, why would not everyone be taking it?


I think this is a common fallacy. You can give anyone adderall and if they try to focus themselves they will be able to stay on task like no other. Amphetamines are pretty universal. This whole ADHD argument is perpetuated by the medical industry.


If it benefits everyone then how come it is difficult for people without ADHD to get a prescription? There must be some risks and tradeoffs to taking it.


Yes there are risks and tradeoffs but my point is that drugs like adderall actually work. Nootropics are dodgy at best. People talk up nootropics in here but there seem to be a lot of people myself included that get little to no benefit from Nootropics. If so many people get little to no benefit that sounds like a placebo effect. "I am taking this pill no wonder I feel smarter today, it surely can't be due to the good night of sleep I got for once"


I agree with all your points although I have not tried Adderall myself and as Zoroaster pointed out, it may not work for everyone. I agree that nootropics are very hit and miss. However, even one partial hit may be worth it. I consider fish oil to be "worth it". It may not cure ADD or make one a genius, but it is beneficial to the brain. It comes back to having realistic expectations.

#21 Ghostrider

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 05:49 PM

Yeah.

To quote myself:

As we've seen on this very forum, it's trivial for vendors to plant "experts" whose true purpose is to drive demand. One person was outed, but how many covert spammers still remain, or are created anew every day?


I wonder...

Some excellent points, wootwoot.


Do your own research before taking or adding a new supplement. It's like investing, it is easy to watch a show like Mad Money and then just blindly buy whatever is recommended. However, that is not a sustainable practice and the same applies to nootropics. When someone hypes or proclaims a benefit of a nootropic on this forum, I then do a search outside of imminst -- usually wikipedia is the first place that I hit, then pubmed. This is essential because some nootropics may have similar action. For example, DLPA and CDP-Choline both increase dopamine...maybe taking both at the same time is too much or will only provide a diminishing return. At the end of the day, you have to know what you are taking.

#22 abelard lindsay

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 07:49 PM

If you give a very happy person SSRIs they are unlikely to feel it as much as someone who is experiencing severe depression. Same goes for nootropics. Normal adults who are not experiencing some sort of mental deficit are far less likely to experience noticeable effects from nootropics. I think you'll see on this forum that some of the most significant responses to nootropics are from people with pre-existing bad ADD problems, brain fog, anxiety disorders, brain injuries and so forth. That's because their brains are damaged and studies have shown nootropics can help in these circumstances. After all, a lot of the nootropic tests in research studies are conducted by first debilitating the brains of mice with neurotoxins like scolpamine and then seeing if the nootropics help them behave normally. They also test nootropics in people experiencing age related cognitive deficits or who are suffering from neurological diseases.

Again: IMHO, If your brain works perfectly or near perfectly you are unlikely to see any significant effects from nootropics.

Oxiracetam prevented the scopolamine but not the diazepam induced memory deficits in mice.
Hlinák Z, Krejcí I.

Institute of Physiology, Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic, Vídenská 1083, 142 20 Prague 4, Czech Republic.

In mice, the elevated plus-maze paradigm was used to investigate the effect of scopolamine hydrobromide and diazepam and their interaction with oxiracetam on the retrieval of spatial memory trace. This paradigm measures (using the transfer latency) an animal's capacity to escape from the open arm to the enclosed one. The retention session followed 24 h after the acquisition one. Experiment 1: Scopolamine (0.25 and 0.5 mg/kg) and diazepam (0.5 and 1.0 mg/kg) given 30 min before the retention session significantly prolonged the transfer latency as compared with the saline treated mice and those given the lowest dose of scopolamine (0.125 mg/kg) and diazepam (0.25 mg/kg). Experiment 2: Oxiracetam administered at doses of 3, 10 and 30 mg/kg immediately after the acquisition session prevented the scopolamine induced prolongation of the transfer latency. Thus, oxiracetam forestalled the impairment of retrieval of memory trace: the animals were able to remember the spatial configuration of the plus-maze. On the contrary, oxiracetam was not effective in the diazepam treated mice. We suggest that beneficial effect of oxiracetam might be confounded or blocked by the anxiolytic effect of diazepam.

PMID: 12110475 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Aniracetam restores object recognition impaired by age, scopolamine, and nucleus basalis lesions.
Bartolini L, Casamenti F, Pepeu G.

Department of Preclinical and Clinical Pharmacology, University of Florence, Italy.

Object recognition was investigated in adult and aging male rats in a two-trials, unrewarded, test that assessed a form of working-episodic memory. Exploration time in the first trial, in which two copies of the same object were presented, was recorded. In the second trial, in which one of the familiar objects and a new object were presented, the time spent exploring the two objects was separately recorded and a discrimination index was calculated. Adult rats explored the new object longer than the familiar object when the intertrial time ranged from 1 to 60 min. Rats older than 20 months of age did not discriminate between familiar and new objects. Object discrimination was lost in adult rats after scopolamine (0.2 mg/kg SC) administration and with lesions of the nucleus basalis, resulting in a 40% decrease in cortical ChAT activity. Both aniracetam (25, 50, 100 mg/kg os) and oxiracetam (50 mg/kg os) restored object recognition in aging rats, in rats treated with scopolamine, and with lesions of the nucleus basalis. In the rat, object discrimination appears to depend on the integrity of the cholinergic system, and nootropic drugs can correct its disruption.

PMID: 8808132 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Application of nootropic agents in complex treatment of patients with concussion of the brain]
[Article in Russian]

Tkachev AV.

65 patients with a mild craniocereberal trauma have been observed. Medical examination included among general clinical methods the following methods: KT (MRT) of the brain, oculist examination including the observation of eye fundus. For objectification of a patient' complaints the authors used orientation and Galvestona's amnesia tests, feeling scale (psychological test), the table to determine the level of memory. Tests have been carried out on the first, tenth and thirty day of the treatment. Patients of the first group received in a complex treatment -pramistar, patients of the second group - piracetam. Patients of both groups noted considerable improvement during a complex treatment (disappearance of headache, dizziness and nausea) and at the same time patients receiving pramistar had better restoration of orientation and feeling. Pramistar was also more effective in patients with amnesia.

PMID: 18418926 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

#23 celavie

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 12:08 AM

Just to correct the notion that ADHD sufferers respond to stimulants in the same way as other people -- simply not true. For decades medicine has noted the "paradoxical response" of ADHD sufferers to stimulants: for these people, amphetamine and methylphenidate appear to have a _calming_ effect.

These days it is generally understood that classic ADHD is a result of dopamine deficiency, partricularly in the PFC involved in executive function. There is a U-shaped response to medication (as is the case with most medications FWIW) -- the optimal dosage will depend on how much of a dopamine boost someone needs. Too much of a boost and you start getting the effects of anyone else on stimulants. Pushed to an extreme you get the effects of amphetamine psychosis, etc.

Just thought I'd mention that. The "paradoxical response" is pretty much the "acid test" for classic (or true) ADHD.

Edited by celavie, 01 June 2008 - 12:15 AM.


#24 mystery

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 07:36 PM

Selling nootropics sounds like a profitable business model. You sell someone on one supplement, they say it doesn't work, then you sell them another. You keep selling different supplements to the same people until they have tried them all. People want them to work so they keep going for more and more unproven supplements.


This is why you need to be a smart consumer and do research. The fact is that quite a few supplements on the market have been shown to be effective in studies. And quite a few are known to if you ask around. For example, there may be no study on using high doses of certain B vitamins to improve attention and mental energy (I haven't checked), but these do appear to be helpful. I got some benefit from them, but I don't really like the side effects, so I use them selectively. There are quite a few supplements that did have a desirable effect on me, but it may have been temporarily, or I really didn't like the side effects. I appear to be very sensitive to substances compared to others, so that is why I'm steering away from anything, or sticking to very small doses. That is the reason for my dissapointment, and I'm prefering more to just leave my brain chemistry as it is. You could certainly be different, and find something that really benefits you.

I'm sorry that I wasn't more helpful in my response above. Some things to try that I'll bet you'll notice something. Keep in mind, the most benign subtances are getting the proper nutrients in your diet, and these are recommened first (like muti vit/min, and fish oil for example):

Multivitamin/mutimineral

High doses of certain B vitamins especially thiamine

Combine B vitamins with a low dose of caffine. I like to use a product called Natrol High (which I stocked up on because it may not be made anymore, but can be found on ebay).

Kava kava

Huperzine A: improved thinking speed a lot(Please note: I had bad side effects on this stuff. Keep the dosage low at first and slowly raise it if needed)

Alpha GPC

Omega 3 fish oil, or flax seed oil: General well tolerated. Try a very high dose for a while. This is a very benign supplement and is more along the lines of getting a necessary fats for nutrients. But for some reason it makes me aggressive and anxious which is not good.

Try cranial electrotherapy stimulation (CES). This is a benign treatment approved officially by the FDA for anxiety, depression, and insomnia. I noticed effects similar to taking Huperzine A on a low frequency of .35hz. If you search the market, I'll bet you'll be able to find a machine without a prescription.

Nothing is a good substitute for plenty of sleep, eating a variety of good food often, and getting mild exercise. Sometimes I'm irritable and performing poorly in the morning when I just need to eat something. Also, it is often recommended to eat more protein for sustained energy for the brain, which I've found to be helpful. If you cover the basics, and then try some of the above recommendations, then I think you'll get a much better result.

The bottom line though I think is that you are probably correct about official ADHD treatments. I'll bet a good dose of amphetamines will really do wonders for my attention like nothing else. It will probably also change who I am, and has the potential to seriously mess up the way my brain works. Nothing can really make up for a system wide difference. The system being different is known as neurodiversity, and I have no doubt that there is real merit to that idea. I was just never made to perform to the same level as others, and trying to get my brain to do that is as flawed as trying to turn normal people into Einesteins by speeding their brain processes with drugs. You might say a specific part of my brain is not functioning properly, like a dopamine deficiency in the prefrontal cortex (PFC), but maybe my brain needs a dopamine "deficiency" in the PFC to work properly, and there are many other differences about it that makes it operate the way it does. Without knowning everything about the system of my brain and how it all interacts, then an approach like boosting dopamine might be absolute madness. What's needed is a much better analysis of my condition which requires a phinominal amount of information about each part to put it all together and model how a change would effect everything. This would be known as synthesis, and we are probably hundreds of years away from doing even a margin job at this.

All that being said, I said I will probably try ampetamine anyway just to know what the effect is. But I'm not going to go through official channels to get that because I have to turn my brain over to someone who knows nothing about it. I can do a much better job of trying a substance and carefully monitoring for any chances, and ultimately tailor my dosage exactly to my needs. Hence, the stuff is hard to get if you know what I mean.

#25 Ghostrider

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 09:27 PM

All that being said, I said I will probably try ampetamine anyway just to know what the effect is. But I'm not going to go through official channels to get that because I have to turn my brain over to someone who knows nothing about it. I can do a much better job of trying a substance and carefully monitoring for any chances, and ultimately tailor my dosage exactly to my needs. Hence, the stuff is hard to get if you know what I mean.


Amphetamine is a schedule II or schedule I controlled substance in the US. You would be committing a felony by obtaining it outside the official channels. Also, amphetamine is a very powerful drug. I would not recommend experimenting without the supervision of a medical professional. Why not go to a professional? If they advise you to take a drug that you are uncomfortable taking, then don't take it.

#26 Magosgruss

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 10:18 PM

Be very careful...

I once knew a guy who said he could make amphetamine by electrifying some chain-link fencing and spraying it with Raid. Official channels will prevent you from acquiring things of this nature.

#27 celavie

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 03:20 AM

All that being said, I said I will probably try ampetamine anyway just to know what the effect is. But I'm not going to go through official channels to get that because I have to turn my brain over to someone who knows nothing about it. I can do a much better job of trying a substance and carefully monitoring for any chances, and ultimately tailor my dosage exactly to my needs. Hence, the stuff is hard to get if you know what I mean.

Regardless of how well your brain would function under amphetamine medication, this last paragraph is clear evidence it's not working very well at the moment.

#28 mystery

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 05:21 AM

All that being said, I said I will probably try ampetamine anyway just to know what the effect is. But I'm not going to go through official channels to get that because I have to turn my brain over to someone who knows nothing about it. I can do a much better job of trying a substance and carefully monitoring for any chances, and ultimately tailor my dosage exactly to my needs. Hence, the stuff is hard to get if you know what I mean.

Regardless of how well your brain would function under amphetamine medication, this last paragraph is clear evidence it's not working very well at the moment.


Good point. I should of left that paragraph out ;)

BTW, wootwoot, even though nootropics are not working for you, have you tried any other supplements with any noticeable effects, like the Lef mix or orth-core? I'm planning on trying those.

Edited by mystery, 02 June 2008 - 05:23 AM.


#29 wootwoot

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 06:58 AM

I do gain more motivation from deprenyl and it is the only nootropic that I have found to help me study. I would like to try hydergine and PEA to see if these are effective. I hate the fact that there is no consensus on this forum as to what works and what doesn't. If I was on a steroid forum they would say "this works here, this other stuff is crap". I would not have so many conflicting reports. I have not given up on all nootropics just yet but I am disappointed that there is no solid answers on what works other than prescription ADD meds.

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#30 Zoroaster

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 06:11 PM

I do gain more motivation from deprenyl and it is the only nootropic that I have found to help me study. I would like to try hydergine and PEA to see if these are effective. I hate the fact that there is no consensus on this forum as to what works and what doesn't. If I was on a steroid forum they would say "this works here, this other stuff is crap". I would not have so many conflicting reports. I have not given up on all nootropics just yet but I am disappointed that there is no solid answers on what works other than prescription ADD meds.


As someone whose pretty into bodybuilding and various methods of hormonal enhancement, I can tell you that the atmosphere on steroid forums are much like the one here. Except the commenters are less intelligent and more fanatical about their opinions. But you still get directly contradicting experiences about everything. And you still get people claiming to have experienced bizarre side effects that make no sense and others that claim amazing benefits minutes after taking stuff when the substance obviously hasn't even gotten into their system yet.

I think the point I, and others, are trying to make is that if you think the ambiguous efficacy of nootropics is unique then you're mistaken. This really is an issue with any drug, and most especially with substances that effect hormone or neurotransmitter levels.

I would say if you're looking for a concensus on what works and what doesn't, don't look at the forum, look at the studies (PubMed, Google school, etc). There actually are some pretty solid answers out there if you look hard enough. I just look at the forum for ideas the spur on my own personal research. And to ask an occasional question that I can't find the answer to elsewhere.

And in the end you may find that there are very few, if any, nootropics that benefit you. For some people that's just the way it is. All the better for you because you can reach peak mental ability without downing 15 pills a day.




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