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What to do with murderers in an immortal society?


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#1 Anaxim

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 08:05 PM


The punishment adopted by contemporary societies, life imprisonment, is inadequate in a hypothetical immortal society. Murder someone, go to prison for thirty years, and then go on to live for thousands more when you get out. It seems terribly wrong, devaluing life and making prison a reasonable bet. What's thirty out of a thousand, if you really hated the person?

You could bring back the death penalty in a big way (it's not heavily applied anywhere), although this would be somewhat at odds with immortalism. Plus the standard problems of sufficient evidence and legal expenses.

Perhaps we could ensure that life means life. But if this is an immortal life, the prisons will gradually fill up and up. A twist on this would be withholding life-extension from murderers, keeping them in a cell whilst allowing their bodies to degrade until cancer gets them. This seems rather cruel and unusual, particularly if a person had been genetically engineered to be immortal - you'd have to artificially induce aging.

Thoughts?

#2 forever freedom

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 08:19 PM

Perhaps we could ensure that life means life. But if this is an immortal life, the prisons will gradually fill up and up. A twist on this would be withholding life-extension from murderers, keeping them in a cell whilst allowing their bodies to degrade until cancer gets them. This seems rather cruel and unusual, particularly if a person had been genetically engineered to be immortal - you'd have to artificially induce aging.

Thoughts?



I think that that would be even more cruel than just killing them instantly. Leaving them to rot in prison for the rest of their lives, while they get gradually weaker, with no hope of seing freedom again, no no... better just kill them fast.




As for punishments for murderers, i hope that once we become an immortal society, we will be able to re-educate (or re-wire when needed) the ones with problems. And i really believe that the closest ones to the murdered person should decide what should be made out of the murderer, since they were the ones, after the murdered person, that got most damaged because of that crime.

So first, re-educate/re-wire the criminal. Second, let the family of the murdered one decide the punishment (of course with a limit to it, they can't do whatever they can, they would rather choose between a different set/degrees of punishments that were first created by a comission of judges or something, depending on the type of the crime). The highest form of punishment could be to lock up the criminal for a certain amount of time (calculated by, say, the age of the murdered person and how long this person would still live according to the general life expectancy of the population -don't forget that bio immortal people could still die of other causes-). So the criminal could stay in prison for 1000 or 2000 years or even more depending on the factors i mentioned before. I assume that many criminals would go crazy or just want to kill themselves, and that would be their option, an option they didn't give to the one they murdered. The criminals with a real will to live would endure for that time and would certainly learn the lesson, added to that the education/rewiring programs they would go through in prison.


A few millenia in prison would make anyone think twice before taking the life of someone else....

#3 Live Forever

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 08:20 PM

What are the reasons for incarcerating people?
1) punishment
2) as a deterrent to others to keep them from committing the crime
3) rehabilitation
4) to separate them from the general population to keep them safe

If we could come up with an adequate structure to both punish and deter others from committing such a crime, then that would satisfy 1 & 2. As a society, we really do not focus much on rehabilitation now, but I think as we progress, in the future it will become a larger and larger component. If someone had the option of having whatever is wrong in their brain wiring "fixed" to reduce their sentence down, then I think a lot of people would take it. (For instance, if you had someone who was psychotic and made them "normal" again to a point where it would be safe for them to be around other people, and then gradually reintroduced them to society, taking small steps to make sure that they were in fact "cured", then that could be one option.) It is a tough question, but I am confident we will be able to work it out.

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#4 VictorBjoerk

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 08:46 PM

making them mortal sounds like a good idea

#5 Anaxim

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 06:00 PM

The 1000 years of imprisonment sounds like an OK idea, though realistically, you're looking at a gigantic expansion of prison places over time to cope with the lifers. It brings to mind the storage of radioactive waste.

Brain re-wiring is another possibility, though the potential for misuse is enormous. Imagine a totalitarian society with such powers, it would make Oceania from 1984 seem like a picnic. First they re-wired the murderers...

#6 forever freedom

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 08:21 PM

Yea indeed prisons for 1000 or 2000 years maybe would be a bad thing. What about make them go through a simulation that simulates 1000 or 2000 years in prison for them when actually much less time has passed. I guess the results would be the same..

#7 VictorBjoerk

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 09:12 PM

Do you think it's too cruel to make them mortal and vulnerable to a aging process

#8 Zoroaster

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 09:53 PM

Well see the other issue is that in an immortal society, murder is an even worse crime than it is now. So the punishment should be severe. Imprisonment for 1000 years, or a simulation of the same, would probably just turn people insane. I'm kind of digging the idea of putting them in prison for like 20 years and then releasing them back into society as a mortal. Assuming it was a murder that would be bad enough to warrent the death penalty today (premeditated, mass murder, senseless murder, etc.). Obviously you wouldn't do this for second degree murder or manslaughter or something.

#9 VictorBjoerk

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 10:18 PM

Does 1000 years mean something if life expectancy is billions of years

#10 forever freedom

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 11:14 PM

Does 1000 years mean something if life expectancy is billions of years


It does. The experience of time passing will be the same no matter if you're expected to live 10,000 years more or a billion years more. The suffering for the criminal would be the same and that's what matters.



Well see the other issue is that in an immortal society, murder is an even worse crime than it is now. So the punishment should be severe. Imprisonment for 1000 years, or a simulation of the same, would probably just turn people insane. I'm kind of digging the idea of putting them in prison for like 20 years and then releasing them back into society as a mortal. Assuming it was a murder that would be bad enough to warrent the death penalty today (premeditated, mass murder, senseless murder, etc.). Obviously you wouldn't do this for second degree murder or manslaughter or something.


What if the criminal finds a way to become immortal again? Wouldn't be hard for him to find some way in the black market considering the technology to beat aging in the future gets cheaper. Then if he got captured again (assuming that police could and would find out of criminals made mortal became immortal again), would the police turn him into a mortal again? This game looks kind of silly. And i think that, once we become used to being immortal, sentencing someone to aging to death would be as cruel as just plain torturing the person to death.

#11 vyntager

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 11:07 AM

The punishment adopted by contemporary societies, life imprisonment, is inadequate in a hypothetical immortal society. Murder someone, go to prison for thirty years, and then go on to live for thousands more when you get out. It seems terribly wrong, devaluing life and making prison a reasonable bet. What's thirty out of a thousand, if you really hated the person?

You could bring back the death penalty in a big way (it's not heavily applied anywhere), although this would be somewhat at odds with immortalism. Plus the standard problems of sufficient evidence and legal expenses.

Perhaps we could ensure that life means life. But if this is an immortal life, the prisons will gradually fill up and up. A twist on this would be withholding life-extension from murderers, keeping them in a cell whilst allowing their bodies to degrade until cancer gets them. This seems rather cruel and unusual, particularly if a person had been genetically engineered to be immortal - you'd have to artificially induce aging.

Thoughts?


What's the purpose ? Justice OR vengeance and self-gratification in retaliating against someone who wronged you OR repair and if possible prevention of criminality ?

Death is not something I'd wish upon anyone. Not even someone I genuinely hated.

Death is ... nothing, a total waste. If you really wanted to make the guy suffer, so as to take your own petty revenge, then go for torture or something, at least you'll feel relieved (or at least hope you will) that you had the possibility to make him suffer. Make sure the guy knows why he's suffering, that he knows it's because he did something wrong.

Killing the same person just means that this person won't exist anymore. It won't suffer from being dead. The only way killing someone can be useful is by removing that person from the game, thus preventing further crime and damages to third parties from it. Or maybe you could make it clear to it that it is going to die because of its crimes, but that amounts to torture anyway. The question there would be, are you ok that the recipient of your torture disappears into oblivion ? Once it's dead, once again, it won't care anymore. See for yourself if any of those solutions quenches that very human thirst for vengeance.

If the goal is to correct a wrong, or prevent it, then again maybe death or very long detention could act as a deterrent. But that'd be hoping that people can learn from such punishments, which is not always the case.

We need more refined, efficient ways of preventing crime. I can't really think of any which would be free of side effects however. For instance, ubiquist surveillance systems could maybe help, but they'd mean the death of privacy, and possibly of freedom. Reprogramming criminals sounds like a good idea, but depending on how much you'd have to reprogram someone, you may as well say you'd be creating an essentially new person, therefore destroying, killing the former one. And who gets to decide who needs to be reprogrammed, when, under which conditions, to which extent, how ? Who gets to hold the power to craft people's minds into what they believe is fit ? What if that power is misused ?

As for correcting wrongs, nothing you can do to the criminal will directly restore what's been lost; albeit you might decide to use the criminal as a sort of slave, forced labor, and use that labor to repair, insofar as possible, the prejudice of its wrong doing, which would indirectly help restore part of what's been materially lost due to its criminal activities. That way of doing things may have less meaning in a post scarcity society though, since the ressource, work output of one individual would be negligible in face of the ressources and work availabe in such a society.

Once you've cared about the need for revenge, and the prevention, or repair of criminal activity and its consequences, I don't see what's left to care for; and in any case death doesn't seem like a fruitful approach, at best it can weed out criminals or deter them, at worst it's a waste of lifes, time, and ressources.

#12 Zoroaster

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 05:57 PM

Does 1000 years mean something if life expectancy is billions of years


It does. The experience of time passing will be the same no matter if you're expected to live 10,000 years more or a billion years more. The suffering for the criminal would be the same and that's what matters.



Well see the other issue is that in an immortal society, murder is an even worse crime than it is now. So the punishment should be severe. Imprisonment for 1000 years, or a simulation of the same, would probably just turn people insane. I'm kind of digging the idea of putting them in prison for like 20 years and then releasing them back into society as a mortal. Assuming it was a murder that would be bad enough to warrent the death penalty today (premeditated, mass murder, senseless murder, etc.). Obviously you wouldn't do this for second degree murder or manslaughter or something.


What if the criminal finds a way to become immortal again? Wouldn't be hard for him to find some way in the black market considering the technology to beat aging in the future gets cheaper. Then if he got captured again (assuming that police could and would find out of criminals made mortal became immortal again), would the police turn him into a mortal again? This game looks kind of silly. And i think that, once we become used to being immortal, sentencing someone to aging to death would be as cruel as just plain torturing the person to death.


I don't think aging can really be considered torture. I'm doing it right now and its not so bad. I can still live a happy and productive life. I think the problem with any kind of incarceration is if you know you'll live forever then incarceration is not a deterrant. It may be a long long time but eventually you'll get out and a thousand years later you'll barely remember it and it will be like it never happened. The only reason incarceration is so bad now is because you lose a portion of your life that you can never get back. That's not the case if the criminal is immortal.

But murdering an immortal is a terrible terrible crime! We need a strong deterrant. Stripping someone of their immortality as a punishment for murder may seem kind of primitive eye-for-an-eye style but I can't think of a better solution. What else would deter murder? Torture of some kind? Maybe have an arm cut off? They're all brutal solutions but incarceration doesn't seem like much of a deterrant for an immortal.

Or here's an idea, maybe we can have a murderer list like we have a sex offender list. And their houses are marked and they're shunned by society and can't apply for certain jobs and such. Of course that's a form of torture in and of itself. And unless that lasted for eternity you'd still run into the problem that 100,000 years later its like it never happened and so the deterent is still weak.

#13 VictorBjoerk

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 07:17 PM

Of course aging should be considered a form of torture.Everyone who visits a nursing home knows that they are suffering emotionally as well as physically. If aging just affected SOME people it would be regarded by society as a horrible disease just like HIV and cancer....

#14 mitkat

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 07:44 PM

One word: cryo-prison. Using behaviour modification therapies available through brain mapping technologies for rehabilitation - don't ever say Sly Stallone didn't teach us anything.

To use another Sly reference (sorry for totally ruining the thread), Judge Dredd Comics had an interesting take on prison as well with isocubes.

Posted Image

Edited by mitkat, 02 June 2008 - 07:58 PM.
yo!


#15 Anaxim

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 08:41 PM

Regarding reprogramming, it does open a whole can of worms. Orwellian scenarios aside, it could easily be misused by private citizens. For example, take a reprogrammed murderer. What if he gets curious about his former life and tries to unprogram himself? Given long enough, it's likely to happen. Either that, or you utterly obliterate their previous personality, which is hardly different from the death penalty.

#16 william7

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 09:50 PM

What else would deter murder? Torture of some kind? Maybe have an arm cut off? They're all brutal solutions but incarceration doesn't seem like much of a deterrant for an immortal.

Along with the immortality will be the need for man to take on a character very similar to the Kung Bushmen. See You Tube video, at , for a description of their lifestyle. Notice how they have no problem with violence or crime.

#17 AaronCW

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 10:06 PM

What else would deter murder? Torture of some kind? Maybe have an arm cut off? They're all brutal solutions but incarceration doesn't seem like much of a deterrant for an immortal.

Along with the immortality will be the need for man to take on a character very similar to the Kung Bushmen. See You Tube video, at , for a description of their lifestyle. Notice how they have no problem with violence or crime.


That's so exciting...I can't wait! ;)

#18 AaronCW

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 10:17 PM

Really I don't think that crime deterrence would have to operate all that differently than it does today. A 30-50 year sentence will be just as mentally devastating and miserable as it is today, and many of the secondary consequences aside from aging would remain; loss of social contacts, jobs, family, etc. A considerably longer life may also serve to place such a sentence in broader context so that it would have even more of an aversive effect than it does today.

I would like to think also that at some point in the future we will be able to purge the US legal system of the many constitutionally inconsistent and unjust prohibitions on drugs (both prescription and otherwise) that are directly or indirectly responsible for such a high percentage of crime and incarceration.

Edited by AaronCW, 02 June 2008 - 10:19 PM.


#19 niner

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 02:43 AM

Regarding reprogramming, it does open a whole can of worms. Orwellian scenarios aside, it could easily be misused by private citizens. For example, take a reprogrammed murderer. What if he gets curious about his former life and tries to unprogram himself? Given long enough, it's likely to happen. Either that, or you utterly obliterate their previous personality, which is hardly different from the death penalty.

I think it would have to do more than just obliterate their previous personality, it would have to obliterate their humanity. That's because any human is capable of murder in the right circumstances. All you have to do is get really, really mad at someone while your finger is on the trigger of a gun. Sometimes we have organized orgies of murder. They are called "wars". I think in an immortal society, it would be a good idea if we fixed the social conditions that presently lead to most of our murders, and get rid of the handguns that are used in most of them. If everyone had a telemetry chip that could alert a rapid response medical team in the event that they were in imminent danger of death, a lot of murders could probably be transformed to assaults. There would still be a handful, I suspect, and how to deal with them is a valid question. Kill them quickly (death penalty)? Kill them slowly (withhold life extension)? Torture them? Reprogram them? Incarcerate them (a form of torture)? Assuming we have the technology to do it, how about transplanting the brain of the murdered person into the murderer's body, or otherwise replacing the consciousness of the murderer with that of the murder victim? Of course, if we had the technology to do that, we could probably bring the dead guy back to life anyway. Maybe to truly murder someone in this imagined future, you would have to dissolve them in nitric acid, or throw them into a vat of molten steel, like Terminator. Or I suppose you could just kill them the old fashioned way, and hide the body really well.

#20 cyborgdreamer

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 04:55 AM

I'm morally opposed to revenge (or 'punishment' if you prefer to call it that). All it does is bring more suffering into the world. Right now, prisons are a necessary evil because they deter crime and keep dangerous people off the streets. In the future, I hope we can find more humane and effective ways to prevent murder. Maybe the medical technology of the 'immortal society' will make the body less vulnerable to injuries. Combined with a strict ban on lethal weapons, murder could become practically impossible.

#21 william7

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 10:07 PM

That's so exciting...I can't wait! ;)


We'll give you the job of hunting the deer with poisoned arrows! How's that for excitement? :p

#22 Anaxim

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 09:23 PM

Here's a thought; perhaps an immortal society would have a more developed sense of degrees of murder. Our mortality gives us the luxury not having to think too hard about the motivations and inclinations of a murderer. Age will get them in the end, anyway.

In an immortal society, forced to choose between execution or something vastly less severe, such an imprisonment or brain alteration, it would be of paramount importance to have a clear demarcation lines between different kinds of murder.

#23 forever freedom

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 04:25 AM

In an immortal society, forced to choose between execution or something vastly less severe, such an imprisonment or brain alteration, it would be of paramount importance to have a clear demarcation lines between different kinds of murder.



Hopefully we will be able to get into the murderers' heads and analyze their thoughts and intentions at the time of the crime. And it better not be lawyers there saying that inflicts their client's rights.. i mean their client killed someone, they abdicated about much of his rights then.

#24 mentatpsi

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 04:47 AM

let's hope not soylent green <.<

#25 Anaxim

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 07:08 AM

Of course, a truly clever murderer would reprogram somebody else to do the killing.

Edited by Anaxim, 11 June 2008 - 07:11 AM.





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