23 replies to this topic

[Kingston]

Hi, new here and was wondering what your guys thoughts were on the new topical antioxidant phloretin that SkinCeuticals is coming out with. Supposedly it can penetrate in the skin very effectively and provide UV protection. The new formulation is 2% Phloretin, 10% L-ascorbic acid, 0.5% ferulic acid. Has anyone heard anything about this antioxidant? Im wondering if it will be more effective than CE Ferulic.

[Fredrik]

Hi, new here and was wondering what your guys thoughts were on the new topical antioxidant phloretin that SkinCeuticals is coming out with. Supposedly it can penetrate in the skin very effectively and provide UV protection. The new formulation is 2% Phloretin, 10% L-ascorbic acid, 0.5% ferulic acid. Has anyone heard anything about this antioxidant? Im wondering if it will be more effective than CE Ferulic.

Hi, and welcome here!
I believe this product is an alternative for oily/combination/sensitive skin that breakout from 1% tocopherol. This formula shouldn´t be as tacky, it contains denatured alcohol which would give it a fresh feel.

If you can use C + E ferulic I wouldn´t change. Restoring a physiological membrane antioxidant like vitamin E that gets depleted by UV-rays is a very smart thing to do. That said, I do like the idea of topical anti-elastase ingredients like this molecule phloretin (which I´ve never heard of before). But they have to prove that it inhibits elastase in vivo of course, I don´t give much for these cell culture studies. They can be a good starting point before going into real trials. Hopefully they`ll add this phenolic compound to C + E ferulic if it really can inhibit elastase and skin sagging.

"In the test for elastase inhibitory activity, phloretin (5) and 3-hydroxyphloretin (6) were the most potent compounds. Phloretin (5), 3-hydroxyphloretin (6), and quercetin (7) showed better inhibition of MMP-1 production in fibroblast cells. To the best of our knowledge, this is the first time that the active phenolic compounds from M. doumeri var. formosana have been isolated, reported, and described. The above results suggest that the extract of M. doumeri var. formosana containing phenolic compounds could be suitable naturally occurring active constituents for use in anti-aging or cosmetic products."

http://cat.inist.fr/...cpsidt=17780336

Attached Files

•  M_doumeri_var.formosana.pdf   227.73KB   121 downloads

Edited by Fredrik, 16 June 2008 - 03:24 AM.

[Kingston]

Thanks for the awesome info Fredrik. I'm definitely going to stick with CE Ferulic. I wish they didnt reduce the the % of L-ascorbic acid from 15% to 10% and kept the vitamin E. C without E just seems wrong lol, and I like that they enhance the efficacy of one another. I was also curious on what you thought of coffeeberry. There seemed to be so much hype regarding this as the most potent antioxidant but I have yet to see results from clinical trials.

I would love to know of any good books on photoaging/skincare you or anyone else might have come across. I'm looking forward to Dr. Baumann's new edition of Cosmetic Dermatology coming out in Dec.

Thanks

[Kingston]

So I just went to www.FutureDerm.com and saw she did a comparison btwn CE Ferulic and Phloretin CF. She writes "After speaking to a friend in the beauty business, it was suggested that perhaps Skinceuticals manufactured Phloretin CF without vitamin E so that CE Ferulic fans would buy Phloretin CF in addition to, rather than instead of, CE Ferulic." According to her, Phloretin CF was very drying so she suggests a combo of the two (Phloretin under CE Ferulic). Dr. Koch's blog he states, "Phloretin CF protects against not only free radicals, but the range of other reactive molecules known to cause damage and DNA mutations among integral cell types. In addition, it corrects existing damage by stimulating the synthesis of essential proteins and fibers and accelerating cell turnover." (http://kochmd.blogsp...t-activity.html). Phloretin seems to be a potent antioxidant, but in total the combo of the two serums would be 25% L-ascorbic acid, 1% Ferulic Acid, 1% Vitamin E, 2% Phloretin. On one hand you get the Vitamin E missing from Phloretin CF and the phloretin missing from the CE Ferulic, but 25% L-ascorbic acid might be a pushing it for some (like me) mildly sensitive to ascorbic acid because of its pH and exfoliating properties.

Bad or good idea to combo the two?

[Brainbox]

Would the CE Ferulic and Phloretin CF really justify their high costs? If yes, why? How long would 1 bottle last?

And, yes. I'm Dutch... but single...

Edited by brainbox, 02 July 2008 - 12:25 AM.

[Fredrik]

Would the CE Ferulic and Phloretin CF really justify their high costs? If yes, why? How long would 1 bottle last?

And, yes. I'm Dutch... but single...

Not for me. That´s why I buy C E ferulic much much cheaper in sample bottles from ebay. It´s the most studied topical cocktail but an SPF 8+ sunscreen gives better protection against photodamage. The main reasons to use it is the l-ascorbic acid. The vitamin C turns up collagen production and the whole formula protect against some forms of DNA-damage. That is the main reason I use it. Also I want to supplement my skin with the vitamins that it naturally have and lose (A, C and E). It´s the right pH, it´s proven to penetrate human skin and remain protective for 72 hours (and the half life is 4 days).

I think it´s totally worth it under a really good sunscreen.

Edited by Fredrik, 02 July 2008 - 12:38 AM.

[Ben]

How are you guys applying these serums. I find with my CE Ferulic I'm placing a drop then massaging it into a certain area then repeating the process across my face until I get coverage. I've changed this from where I was simply adding drops to certain key areas and massaging them over a wider area, hoping that these would meet up and I would get full coverage.

How many drops are you using? From the mini sample size dropper that is.

[Benae]

How I apply CE Ferulic: I tilt my head to the side and apply 2 drops directly to one side of my face (of course without touching the dropper to the skin) then rub in with clean hands. Oh, make sure you keep your head tilted or you'll loose your serum. I repeat this process for the other side. I have to hurry as my skin sucks it right up. Then I place a drop on my fingertips and apply to neck. If I feel I have missed an area I just apply another drop. I wait 5 minutes and apply the Hydrating B5 gel in the same manner followed by the Clinique Continuous Rescue Antioxidant. I do this morning & evening directly after cleansing. I, too, purchased the CE Ferulic and B5 gel in the sample vials from ebay as Fredrik recommended.

Fredrik, is 2x day okay for the CE Ferulic? I'm trying to make up for lost time!

Barbara

[Ben]

Fredrik, is 2x day okay for the CE Ferulic? I'm trying to make up for lost time!

Barbara

Quoting fredrik here I think one application should be fine:

It´s the right pH, it´s proven to penetrate human skin and remain protective for 72 hours (and the half life is 4 days).

Edit: i.e. after four days apparently only half of it will have been depleted.

Edited by Ben - Aus, 03 July 2008 - 02:22 AM.

[Fredrik]

Fredrik, is 2x day okay for the CE Ferulic? I'm trying to make up for lost time!

Barbara

Hi Barbara! Once daily, preferably in the morning is enough. You can´t make up for lost time with this topical I´m sorry to say. I´ts mostly preventative, though the l-ascorbic acid will stimulate collagen production. But you don´t need to apply it twice daily. A prescription retinoid can repair some of the photodamage, also called "aging skin", and medium chemical peels and lasers can also correct and prompt some repair.

Edited by Fredrik, 03 July 2008 - 05:28 AM.

[Kingston]

How are you guys applying these serums. I find with my CE Ferulic I'm placing a drop then massaging it into a certain area then repeating the process across my face until I get coverage. I've changed this from where I was simply adding drops to certain key areas and massaging them over a wider area, hoping that these would meet up and I would get full coverage.

How many drops are you using? From the mini sample size dropper that is.

I have the full size bottle CE Ferulic, but I find it easier to do 5 drops on my hand and then dab with my finger tips and apply to the whole face. Then 5 drops for neck and 1 for each hand etc using finger tips. When I try to use the dropper on my face its inconvenient and slides off my face. I don't know if thats a bad method or not, but it works for me. (if someone knows if it somehow reduces efficacy or anything let me know!!!)

[Ben]

Logic tells me that if you are letting the droplets sit on your fingertips then, depending upon how long they are there for, some of the active ingredients in the serum will be absorbed into your finger tips rather than your facial skin. That's the only draw back I can think of.

[Brainbox]

But why is it so darn expensive? You can create your own similar product using SkinActives....
Is it the only fact that the bio availability and right PH are proven or is it really practically / theoretically better then a much cheaper alternative like a SkinActives concoction?

[Bghead8che]

But why is it so darn expensive? You can create your own similar product using SkinActives....
Is it the only fact that the bio availability and right PH are proven or is it really practically / theoretically better then a much cheaper alternative like a SkinActives concoction?

Ditto on Brainbox's question! Are we paying for quality or brand name? How long does a bottle of C+E last at $120 a pop?

C, E, and the acid are very affordable. Maybe $5.00 a bottle in ingredients.

-Brian

[Fredrik]

But why is it so darn expensive? You can create your own similar product using SkinActives....
Is it the only fact that the bio availability and right PH are proven or is it really practically / theoretically better then a much cheaper alternative like a SkinActives concoction?

Ditto on Brainbox's question! Are we paying for quality or brand name? How long does a bottle of C+E last at $120 a pop?

C, E, and the acid are very affordable. Maybe $5.00 a bottle in ingredients.

-Brian

Brainbox and Bghead8che,

you can buy totally legit samples on ebay, 1 oz (6 minisamples) for under $30. That´s what I do. It´s better than buying the full size bottle because you don´t have to expose the whole solution to oxygen every time you use it = less oxidation. I go through one mini bottle in 4-5 weeks.

You´re paying for both quality and brand name. Dr Sheldon Pinnell who started Skinceuticals (now aquired by Loreal) is THE foremost researcher on topical vitamin C. He did many of the studies in the early 90s and to this day. That said, you can read his patent and make this solution yourself. But it´s a bit messy. I use homemade 5% C (C + distilled water + ethanol) on my hands from time to time.

[Ben]

How do you make those tiny vials last for 4 weeks?!?!? I'm barely getting two weeks worth out them. Perhaps I'm applying it too liberally.

[luminous]

How I apply CE Ferulic: I tilt my head to the side and apply 2 drops directly to one side of my face (of course without touching the dropper to the skin) then rub in with clean hands. Oh, make sure you keep your head tilted or you'll loose your serum. I repeat this process for the other side. I have to hurry as my skin sucks it right up. Then I place a drop on my fingertips and apply to neck. If I feel I have missed an area I just apply another drop. I wait 5 minutes and apply the Hydrating B5 gel in the same manner followed by the Clinique Continuous Rescue Antioxidant. I do this morning & evening directly after cleansing. I, too, purchased the CE Ferulic and B5 gel in the sample vials from ebay as Fredrik recommended.

Fredrik, is 2x day okay for the CE Ferulic? I'm trying to make up for lost time!

Barbara

Can I ask what the B5 gel does? Thanks!

As for the CE Ferulic, I put a few drops on my fingertips and apply to face and neck. Then I finish by rubbing fingertips together in order to put the remainder on the tops of my hands.

[Ben]

[/quote]
Can I ask what the B5 gel does? Thanks!

[/quote]

It does nothing for me. It has however hyaluronic acid which moisturises the skin. The b5 gel product itself just leaves my skin feeling dry.

[Kingston]

How do you make those tiny vials last for 4 weeks?!?!? I'm barely getting two weeks worth out them. Perhaps I'm applying it too liberally.

Hey Ben, I have a couple sample sizes and I get about 2 weeks (probably less) out of one vial as well.

[Fredrik]

How do you make those tiny vials last for 4 weeks?!?!? I'm barely getting two weeks worth out them. Perhaps I'm applying it too liberally.

Hey Ben, I have a couple sample sizes and I get about 2 weeks (probably less) out of one vial as well.

I use six drops on my face + four on my neck. The instruction says "apply 4-5 drops to face, neck and chest". So there´s no need to apply more than 10-15 drops a day.

Edited by Fredrik, 09 July 2008 - 06:57 PM.

[skein]

This is what's really exciting - just check out the patent on this, co-authored by Pinnell, especially the graphs. They are pretty spectacular, if you ask me:

http://www.freepaten.../EP1837056.html

Turns out the combination of just 2% phloretin + 0,5% ferulic is more protective than others, and C + E pale in comparison. I think they've left C mainly for its added collagen boosting and depigmenting properties.

So no, it's not a marketing ploy as futurederm.com suggests. And yes, you should be switching to it as soon as possible if you want the maximum protection bang for your buck.
Personally, I'm waiting until phloretin is more readily available, so that I can make my own for a fraction of the cost of the original

Edited by skein, 28 July 2008 - 08:23 PM.

[Fredrik]

This is what's really exciting - just check out the patent on this, co-authored by Pinnell, especially the graphs. They are pretty spectacular, if you ask me:

http://www.freepaten.../EP1837056.html

Turns out the combination of just 2% phloretin + 0,5% ferulic is more protective than others, and C + E pale in comparison. I think they've left C mainly for its added collagen boosting and depigmenting properties.

So no, it's not a marketing ploy as futurederm.com suggests. And yes, you should be switching to it as soon as possible if you want the maximum protection bang for your buck.
Personally, I'm waiting until phloretin is more readily available, so that I can make my own for a fraction of the cost of the original

I´ve also read that patent but where do you find that 2% phloretin + 0.5% ferulic is more photoprotective than C + E + ferulic? The patent says that they both provide significant protection against UVA-induced erythema.

My take on this is that topical ascorbic acid is the main active and the other ingredients acts synergistic with C (especially E). Phloretin seem to be a good anti-elastase agent which is very exciting in itself if it can do anything in vivo that is.

[jackie100]

What do u guys think of using phloretin together in combination with ce ferulic? so basically, just apply ce ferulic first and then phloretin...

I read http://futurederm.wo...r-phloretin-cf/ and the author there says she's
using both with good results.

Would there be any harm in doing so? Is there a possibility of the products not working as effective as possible when combined together??

[spacetime]

What do u guys think of using phloretin together in combination with ce ferulic? so basically, just apply ce ferulic first and then phloretin...

I read http://futurederm.wo...r-phloretin-cf/ and the author there says she's
using both with good results.

Would there be any harm in doing so? Is there a possibility of the products not working as effective as possible when combined together??

Here's my logic, and I could be completely off base here, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. Apply the phloretin product first then the CE+ferulic. Reason being the latter is oily due to the vit E so it could inhibit penetration of the phloretin product.