12 replies to this topic

[nameless]

I have a couple of K2 questions I hope someone can help me with. What is the preferred type of K2, Menaquinone-4 or 7?

And what is the ideal dosage? I have read that 45mcg of K2-7 has been shown to be beneficial, but is that the minimal dose one should take, or would 90mcg be better? K2-7 also stays in the body for 3-4 days, so would taking it once every 3 days be good enough or should it be taken daily? K2 require fats to asborb, or no?

I'm currently getting about 60mcg of K2-4 daily from my multi. And I take one Twinlab K2/D dot (90mcg K2-7) every 3 days. I'm not sure how well K2 absorbs sublingually though.

I have also read that CoQ10 is structurally similar to K. Could CoQ10 supplementation + K2 cause a problem (like blood clots)?

[FunkOdyssey]

Here's a positive epidemiological study for MK-7:

Nutrition. 2001 Apr;17(4):315-21.

Japanese fermented soybean food as the major determinant of the large geographic difference in circulating levels of vitamin K2: possible implications for hip-fracture risk.
Kaneki M, Hodges SJ, Hosoi T, Fujiwara S, Lyons A, Crean SJ, Ishida N, Nakagawa M, Takechi M, Sano Y, Mizuno Y, Hoshino S, Miyao M, Inoue S, Horiki K, Shiraki M, Ouchi Y, Orimo H.

Department of Geriatric Medicine, University of Tokyo Graduate School of Medicine, Tokyo, Japan.

Increasing evidence indicates a significant role for vitamin K in bone metabolism and osteoporosis. In this study, we found a large geographic difference in serum vitamin K2 (menaquinone-7; MK-7) levels in postmenopausal women. Serum MK-7 concentrations were 5.26 +/- 6.13 ng/mL (mean +/- SD) in Japanese women in Tokyo, 1.22 +/- 1.85 in Japanese women in Hiroshima, and 0.37 +/- 0.20 in British women. We investigated the effect of Japanese fermented soybean food, natto, on serum vitamin K levels. Natto contains a large amount of MK-7 and is eaten frequently in eastern (Tokyo) but seldom in western (Hiroshima) Japan. Serum concentrations of MK-7 were significantly higher in frequent natto eaters, and natto intake resulted in a marked, sustained increase in serum MK-7 concentration. We analyzed the relation between the regional difference in natto intake and fracture incidence. A statistically significant inverse correlation was found between incidence of hip fractures in women and natto consumption in each prefecture throughout Japan. These findings indicate that the large geographic difference in MK-7 levels may be ascribed, at least in part, to natto intake and suggest the possibility that higher MK-7 level resulting from natto consumption may contribute to the relatively lower fracture risk in Japanese women.

[FunkOdyssey]

Looks like preliminary evidence points to MK-7 as a superior form, hopefully we can find out more (if someone can obtain the full text):

Curr Opin Lipidol. 2008 Feb;19(1):39-42.Click here to read Links
Vitamin K intake and atherosclerosis.
Erkkilä AT, Booth SL.

School of Public Health and Clinical Nutrition, University of Kuopio, Finland. arja.erkkila@uku.fi

PURPOSE OF REVIEW: It has been hypothesized that insufficient intake of vitamin K may increase soft-tissue calcification owing to impaired gamma-carboxylation of the vitamin K-dependent protein matrix gamma-carboxyglutamic acid. The evidence to support this putative role of vitamin K intake in atherosclerosis is reviewed. RECENT FINDINGS: In animal models, multiple forms of vitamin K have been shown to reverse the arterial calcification created by vitamin K antagonists. The human data, however, are less consistent. Phylloquinone, the primary dietary form, has not been associated consistently with the risk of cardiovascular diseases. High menaquinone intake may be associated with lower risk of coronary heart disease mortality, but this needs to be confirmed. SUMMARY: The role of vitamin K in calcification remains controversial. Although biologically plausible, results from the human studies have not consistently supported this hypothesis.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 17 June 2008 - 07:54 PM.

[shuffleup]

I have also read that CoQ10 is structurally similar to K. Could CoQ10 supplementation + K2 cause a problem (like blood clots)?

Hope not I am taking both.

I take source naturals mk-7 - one tab per day.

[nameless]

Here are some studies I just found:

http://www.plthomas....Q7 RESEARCH.htm

I'm primarily interested in cardiovascular benefits, not bone strength... although I suppose healthy bones are good too. The Rotterdam Study - http://jn.nutrition....134/11/3100#FN1
was primarily based on Mk-4, 8 and 9, I think. Maybe a combination of several menaquinones would be healthiest?

Edited by nameless, 17 June 2008 - 08:09 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

Nice find nameless. Here's the link to the Rotterdam study: http://jn.nutrition....ull/134/11/3100

Some excerpts:

Energy-adjusted intake of phylloquinone was not associated with risk of nonfatal MI, incident CHD (fatal and nonfatal events combined), CHD mortality, and all-cause mortality (Table 2). For menaquinone intake (Table 3) there was an inverse relationship with nonfatal MI in the upper vs. lower tertile after adjustment for confounders, but findings were not statistically significant. Risk of incident CHD, however, was strongly and significantly reduced in the upper tertile of menaquinone intake (RR = 0.59), as were risk of CHD mortality (RR = 0.43) and all-cause mortality (RR = 0.74). Additional adjustment for intake of fiber, vitamin C, vitamin E, and ß-carotene did not change these results.

The upper tertile of menaquinone intake was > 32mcg daily.

Mean intake of phylloquinone intake was similar in categories of aortic calcification (249.2, 249.0, and 245.0 µg/d for mild, moderate, and severe stages, respectively), after adjustment for age, gender, and total energy intake. Menaquinone intake was lower in subjects with severe aortic calcification (25.6 µg/d) than in subjects with moderate or mild calcification (28.6 and 28.8 µg/d, respectively; P = 0.001).

Intake of phylloquinone was not significantly associated with moderate or severe aortic calcification after adjustment for age and gender (model 1) or after further adjustment for confounders. In fully adjusted analysis (model 2), ORs for severe calcification were 0.86 (0.61, 1.22) and 1.03 (0.72, 1.48) in the mid and upper tertiles of phylloquinone, respectively, compared to the lower tertile. Menaquinone intake showed no significant association with moderate calcification (Table 4). For severe calcification, however, a strong inverse relationship with menaquinone intake persisted after adjustment for BMI, smoking, education, diabetes, and intake of alcohol, PUFA, SFA, flavonols, and calcium (Table 4). Additional adjustment for intake of fiber, vitamin C, vitamin E, and ß-carotene did not change these results.

They are looking at really small quantities here and small variations in intake and yet still notice significant impact from menaquinone. One thing is certain: K1 is garbage from a heart disease perspective. The authors don't seem to indicate that there is any significant differences between various forms of menaquinone in terms of effects.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 17 June 2008 - 08:28 PM.

[krillin]

I have a couple of K2 questions I hope someone can help me with. What is the preferred type of K2, Menaquinone-4 or 7?

And what is the ideal dosage? I have read that 45mcg of K2-7 has been shown to be beneficial, but is that the minimal dose one should take, or would 90mcg be better? K2-7 also stays in the body for 3-4 days, so would taking it once every 3 days be good enough or should it be taken daily? K2 require fats to asborb, or no?

I'm currently getting about 60mcg of K2-4 daily from my multi. And I take one Twinlab K2/D dot (90mcg K2-7) every 3 days. I'm not sure how well K2 absorbs sublingually though.

I have also read that CoQ10 is structurally similar to K. Could CoQ10 supplementation + K2 cause a problem (like blood clots)?

I've settled on 90 mcg MK-7. Its longer side chain makes it more fat soluble than K1 or MK-4 (One source says that's why its half life is so much longer: it gets transported by lipoproteins.) so I take it in softgel form with a meal.

Extra K doesn't cause blood clots unless you're suppressing it with blood thinners. I've seen some mild warnings about CoQ10 increasing bleeding through a variety of mechanisms.

[nameless]

I've settled on 90 mcg MK-7. Its longer side chain makes it more fat soluble than K1 or MK-4 (One source says that's why its half life is so much longer: it gets transported by lipoproteins.) so I take it in softgel form with a meal.

Extra K doesn't cause blood clots unless you're suppressing it with blood thinners. I've seen some mild warnings about CoQ10 increasing bleeding through a variety of mechanisms.

Do you take it daily, or every three days? I know Jarrow makes a MK-7 softgel, although the dry (Now) or dots (Twinlab) is tempting due to price. But if mostly fat soluble, I suppose softgel would make the most sense.

The CoQ10 issue, if there even is one, I saw referenced by a poster over in the LEF forums a long time ago. He stated that CoQ10 was causing a coagulation problem, and although rare, CoQ10 can cause clotting issues in some individuals due to the structural similarity with vitamin K.

But as you stated, CoQ10 can possibly increase bleeding in certain people, (not sure if this has been seen in any studies, but I've seen that warning too). I was wondering if there is any validity to the claim that CoQ10 can do both: in some people increase bleeding, yet in others cause blood to coagulate? If certain people, even a small percentage, are able to utilize CoQ10 as vitamin K, then could K2 + CoQ10 be a bad idea?

[krillin]

Do you take it daily, or every three days?

Daily.

[woly]

For anyone who is interested, i emailed NOW about their D3/K2 product thats on iherb and got this:
"This is a fermented Soy derived material, expected to be dominated by
MK7 and possibly a small amount of a typical mix of menaquinones MK-4,
MK-5, MK-6."

Edited by woly, 18 June 2008 - 02:19 AM.

[yoyo]

For anyone who is interested, i emailed NOW about their D3/K2 product thats on iherb and got this:
"This is a fermented Soy derived material, expected to be dominated by
MK7 and possibly a small amount of a typical mix of menaquinones MK-4,
MK-5, MK-6."

good info

[pycnogenol]

I take the Jarrow brand of MK-7 just twice a week: Monday and Friday.

Edited by pycnogenol, 19 June 2008 - 03:22 PM.

[ferdo]

I ferment my own soybeans and eat every other day about 70 grams of natto. That gives me about 700 mcg menaquinone-7 in one serving.

Since almost a year I make my own natto and next to getting more vitamine D, these have been the best changes in food/lifestyle I've ever made in my life!