51 replies to this topic

[davpet]

Hi,

I have been researching non-surgical facial rejuvenation (in terms of procedures) for a few years now, and would like to discuss this topic ?

So i'll start with the obvious.

Effective Treatments:

1. Botox - Continued use prevents new wrinkling and allows for collagen remodelling actually repairing old wrinkling.
2. Fillers - Hyaluronic Acid based fillers appear to be the best and have the least amount of side-effects. Also stimulates new collagen.
3. Plasma Skin Resurfacing - Minor improvements in fine lines. Good for discolorations and texture with few side effects.
4. CO2 Laser - Dramatic improvements in fine lines and deeper wrinkles. High risk of side-effects.

Ineffective treatments : (gathered from patient experiences)

1. Fraxel and Thermage.
2. TCA Peel (20-35%) Good for discolorations and texture but not for fine lines.

Your thoughts ?

[Eva Victoria]

I would like to add
Tretinoin
SUNSCREEN!
Vitamin C and other topical antioxidants that boost collagen production
EGF and KGF

Hi,

I have been researching non-surgical facial rejuvenation (in terms of procedures) for a few years now, and would like to discuss this topic ?

So i'll start with the obvious.

Effective Treatments:

1. Botox - Continued use prevents new wrinkling and allows for collagen remodelling actually repairing old wrinkling.
2. Fillers - Hyaluronic Acid based fillers appear to be the best and have the least amount of side-effects. Also stimulates new collagen.
3. Plasma Skin Resurfacing - Minor improvements in fine lines. Good for discolorations and texture with few side effects.
4. CO2 Laser - Dramatic improvements in fine lines and deeper wrinkles. High risk of side-effects.

Ineffective treatments : (gathered from patient experiences)

1. Fraxel and Thermage.
2. TCA Peel (20-35%) Good for discolorations and texture but not for fine lines.

Your thoughts ?

Attached Files

•  How_to_halt__revert_UV_induced_skin_aging.pdf   55.41KB   121 downloads

[Forever21]

Dear Eva,

Do you have a recommendation for the following?

Tretinoin
SUNSCREEN!
Vitamin C and other topical antioxidants that boost collagen production
EGF and KGF

I use only the Tretinoin (Retin-A) and regular sunscreen. I should probably get a new one. I haven't used Vit C and other topical on my face. EGF/KGF, what are these?

Thanks in advance

[davpet]

I would like to add
Tretinoin
SUNSCREEN!
Vitamin C and other topical antioxidants that boost collagen production
EGF and KGF

I'm sorry i was not clearer.

I would like to discuss cosmetic procedures for Non-Surgical Facial Rejuvenation ?

[Eva Victoria]

Dear Eva,

Do you have a recommendation for the following?

Tretinoin

RetinA 0,5% every night

SUNSCREEN!
Any sunscreen from L'Oreal group sold in the EU, Bioderma (sold in the EU), Nivea (sold in the EU). High PPD/UVA-protection is crucial!

Vitamin C and other topical antioxidants that boost collagen production

La Roche-Posay Vitamin C 5% contentration is a good start (AM)

EGF and KGF

Revive skincare has it. You can buy the raw ingredients on internet and mix it in your creams.

Epidermal growth factor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia....l_growth_factor

Keratinocyte Growth Factor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia....e_Growth_Factor


I use only the Tretinoin (Retin-A) and regular sunscreen. I should probably get a new one. I haven't used Vit C and other topical on my face. EGF/KGF, what are these?

Thanks in advance

Edited by Eva Victoria, 25 June 2008 - 02:23 PM.

[Eva Victoria]

If you mean procedures that are done by a dermatologist in office than I am sorry, I misunderstood you.

I would like to add
Tretinoin
SUNSCREEN!
Vitamin C and other topical antioxidants that boost collagen production
EGF and KGF

I'm sorry i was not clearer.

I would like to discuss cosmetic procedures for Non-Surgical Facial Rejuvenation ?

[davpet]

If you mean procedures that are done by a dermatologist in office than I am sorry, I misunderstood you.

I would like to add
Tretinoin
SUNSCREEN!
Vitamin C and other topical antioxidants that boost collagen production
EGF and KGF

I'm sorry i was not clearer.

I would like to discuss cosmetic procedures for Non-Surgical Facial Rejuvenation ?

That's amazing how you managed to answer a question using a quote. That's a good Eva Victoria trick.

[Eva Victoria]

Sorry? I don't really get your point.

[/quote]

That's amazing how you managed to answer a question using a quote. That's a good Eva Victoria trick.
[/quote]

[caston]

I would like to add
Tretinoin
SUNSCREEN!
Vitamin C and other topical antioxidants that boost collagen production
EGF and KGF

OK what are EGF and KGF ?


EGF is Epidermal growth factor?

http://en.wikipedia....l_growth_factor

Edited by caston, 26 June 2008 - 09:35 AM.

[Eva Victoria]

EGF is Epidermal Growth Factor
KGF is Keratinocyte Growth Factor.
Both are present in the skin though in less and less extend as the years pass.
Topically applied to the skin they can effect its volume and surface, its thickness.
They can give you a more youthful appearance.


Please see the attached links in the prev. post. Or it is possible to do a search on them in google.
I don't know very much about them since I don't formulate anything else than sunscreens.

Another thing is that topically applied Estrogen already in very low quantities gives the skin back its youthfulness. On this topic you should make your own search as well, I'm afraid. I read it in several dermatological publications but I did not take care of any of these articles.

I would like to add
Tretinoin
SUNSCREEN!
Vitamin C and other topical antioxidants that boost collagen production
EGF and KGF

OK what are EGF and KGF ?


EGF is Epidermal growth factor?

http://en.wikipedia....l_growth_factor

[caston]

Thanks Eva,

I missed it in your post before. I'm sure that topically applying growth factors can't hurt.

[Eva Victoria]

As far as I have read they do work "miracles".
But I have a hard time to believe that. There is not enough research on them yet.
So I'd stick to Tretinoin 0,5% (PM) and an efficient Sunscreen (AM) combined with good stable antioxidants (as a separate product, used under the sunscreen).

Thanks Eva,

I missed it in your post before. I'm sure that topically applying growth factors can't hurt.

[davpet]

If you mean procedures that are done by a dermatologist in office than I am sorry, I misunderstood you.

I would like to add
Tretinoin
SUNSCREEN!
Vitamin C and other topical antioxidants that boost collagen production
EGF and KGF

I'm sorry i was not clearer.

I would like to discuss cosmetic procedures for Non-Surgical Facial Rejuvenation ?

That's amazing how you managed to answer a question using a quote. That's a good Eva Victoria trick.

Eva Victoria, you have hi-jacked this thread and gone off topic. Please move your discussion elsewhere.

[caston]

davpet: quiet you

[Eva Victoria]

Was not my or anybody's intention to disturb your discussion.
And good manners are still highly appreciated, even here

If you mean procedures that are done by a dermatologist in office than I am sorry, I misunderstood you.

I would like to add
Tretinoin
SUNSCREEN!
Vitamin C and other topical antioxidants that boost collagen production
EGF and KGF

I'm sorry i was not clearer.

I would like to discuss cosmetic procedures for Non-Surgical Facial Rejuvenation ?

That's amazing how you managed to answer a question using a quote. That's a good Eva Victoria trick.

Eva Victoria, you have hi-jacked this thread and gone off topic. Please move your discussion elsewhere.

[Ben]

...
And good manners are still highly appreciated, even here

He said please, lol.

Oh and davpet please help me to understand why you think Eva has hijacked your thread.

[spacetime]

I don't see how laser treatments and injections are considered non-surgical treatments. They need to be performed by licensed personel though this my vary by jurisdiction. Perhaps it's an issue of semantics. For the most part it seems surgical procedures, or at least cosmetic surgery's goal is to alter appearance moreso than to repair or offset physical damage aka rejuvenation. I think discussion or oral and topical treatments would fall under the banner of non surgical facial rejuvenation but it appears there is a disagreement in definition. Perhaps the OP could further elaborate.

[Ben]

I don't see how laser treatments and injections are considered non-surgical treatments. They need to be performed by licensed personel though this my vary by jurisdiction. Perhaps it's an issue of semantics. For the most part it seems surgical procedures, or at least cosmetic surgery's goal is to alter appearance moreso than to repair or offset physical damage aka rejuvenation. I think discussion or oral and topical treatments would fall under the banner of non surgical facial rejuvenation but it appears there is a disagreement in definition. Perhaps the OP could further elaborate.

I totally agree, there seems to be a serious definition problem here.

[davpet]

I don't see how laser treatments and injections are considered non-surgical treatments. They need to be performed by licensed personel though this my vary by jurisdiction. Perhaps it's an issue of semantics. For the most part it seems surgical procedures, or at least cosmetic surgery's goal is to alter appearance moreso than to repair or offset physical damage aka rejuvenation. I think discussion or oral and topical treatments would fall under the banner of non surgical facial rejuvenation but it appears there is a disagreement in definition. Perhaps the OP could further elaborate.

I totally agree, there seems to be a serious definition problem here.

Non-Surgical Facial Rejuvenation means to restore a youthful appearence through cosmetic dermatological procedures without having to resort to plastic surgery (face-lifts etc.)

Topicals while an important part of skin care maintenance, are not considered aggressive enough to achieve these goals. ie. they won't replace lost facial volume or have any effect on dynamic wrinkles.

Here's an example of Non-Surgical Facial Rejuvenation :

http://www.rhytec.co...plasma_300k.wmv

Edited by davpet, 29 June 2008 - 05:48 AM.

[Ben]

Topicals while an important part of skin care maintenance, are not considered aggressive enough to achieve these goals. ie. they won't replace lost facial volume or have any effect on dynamic wrinkles.

Here's an example of Non-Surgical Facial Rejuvenation :

http://www.rhytec.co...plasma_300k.wmv

I disagree with you here. I think that topicals can "replace lost facial volume" and have an effect on dynamic wrinkles, whatever that means.

I assume by facial volume you mean fat, collagen, elastin and water. There is research that has shown that certain topicals (including the ones that eva very rightly, and indeed very helpfully, posted). I am not going to post the links to this research because those links have been posted time and time again.

I think that topicals can have more than a maintenance affect on facial aesthetics, have a look through the forum and you will probably discover why I come to this conclusion.

Edit: I'd like to add that your use of language suggests to me that you have been misinformed by whatever company's marketing machine. Your use especially of the term "Non-surgical facial rejuvenation" is, I think, particularly poignant.

Edited by Ben - Aus, 29 June 2008 - 06:10 AM.

[davpet]

Article on Non-Surgical Facial Rejuvenation :

http://www.australia...___AUG25_06.pdf

[davpet]

I disagree with you here. I think that topicals can "replace lost facial volume" and have an effect on dynamic wrinkles, whatever that means.

I'm sorry but you have been seriously misinformed.

It is common knowledge in the field of dermatology that topicals have zero effect on replacing subcutaneous fat loss or improving dynamic wrinkles (wrinkles caused by muscle movement).

A recent study compared injected botulinum toxin (Botox) with the heavily marketed topical wrinkle creams that claimed to be the equivalent (StriVectin-SD cream, Wrinkle Relax, Faux Tox, Hydroderm), but none of the creams were better than the placebo.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ogdbfrom=pubmed

Edited by davpet, 04 July 2008 - 09:33 AM.

[spacey]

What about chemical peels, can they be considered non-surgical? I know they can reduce the appearance of fine lines, thus making you appear younger.

[davpet]

What about chemical peels, can they be considered non-surgical? I know they can reduce the appearance of fine lines, thus making you appear younger.

Now we're on the right track.

Yes, chemical peels would fall under non-surgical.

Many doctors claim that medium depth chemical peels (TCA Peel 20-35%) can reduce or remove fine lines. From the information i've gathered (from patients and doctors who are honest) this effect is only temporary ie. once the swelling resolves the fine lines return. The peel therefore needs to be repeated by the 3 month mark.

Deep chemical peels such as a phenol peel can remove fine lines and even deeper wrinkles, but this usually requires anesthesia and has a high risk of complications (scarring; permanent loss of skin tone; possible heart problems).

Edited by davpet, 04 July 2008 - 12:43 PM.

[Eva Victoria]

What about Tretinoin?
It does help the skin produce collagen fibers hence fill out lines/wrinkles (in some extend )and give some volume back to the face.

And what about KGF, which is also considered to add volume to the face?

[davpet]

What about Tretinoin?
It does help the skin produce collagen fibers hence fill out lines/wrinkles (in some extend )and give some volume back to the face.

And what about KGF, which is also considered to add volume to the face?

These substances have ZERO effect on facial volume.

[Ben]

Seriously, stop trolling. It's getting very tiresome, very quickly.

[Gerald W. Gaston]

Seriously, stop trolling. It's getting very tiresome, very quickly.

Yes this is a nice thread of nothing so far... The OP started by stating years of research (which typially means I googled around a bit) and posting a nice bulleted list of 'non-surgical facial rejuvenation' procedures, but no actual comments on them. Please commence with the bestowing of great knowledge on these already.

That said, I'll bite with a few. I searched around for a whole 20 minutes. :-) Some of these are not specifically related to facial volume, which seemed to get to be the focus in the last few posts. While improving volume is probably the most sigificant change for a youthful look, there are issues with sagging, pigmentations, scarring, etc. that may also need to be addressed. I have no experience or years of research, so I can't comment personally on these.


So how about CIT for scars and wrinkles? Specifically needling/dermaroller/Roll-CIT? I've seen them mentioned for years on acne and hair loss boards. I do know a few folks who have tried needling themselves, but with shorter needles in the 0.25mm-1.00mm "personal model" range mainly for increase penetration of topicals. The 1.5mm-3mm apparently are not generally recommended for home/personal use and are better suited for collagen induction.

Dermaroller’s Weblog

The Victorian Cosmetic Institute - Skin Needling

Dermaroller Collagen Induction Therapy (using a CIT8 - 0.5mm needles):

Dermaroller - Interview with Dr. Schwarz:

Another vendor - dr. roller video:

Then for addressing sagging and reshaping the volume you have... Contour Thread Lifts are classified non-surgical, as they involve needle and thread and no scalpel. Scalpel or not, still pretty invasive. Available since around 2004, typically $3k-8k (depending on who does it and the number of zones). Good for 3-5 years:

Contour Thread Lift

Table comparing surgical treatments to non-surgical treatment (includes links only for the non-surgical treatments the site provides):

The Victorian Cosmetic Institute - Non Surgical Facial Shaping?


Lastly from that same Victorian Cosmetic website is a page about Facial Volume Loss


Edit: corrected a screwed up link... which screwed up the rest which...

Edited by frankbuzin, 06 July 2008 - 10:22 PM.

[davpet]

Please commence with the bestowing of great knowledge on these already.: corrected a screwed up link... which screwed up the rest which...

From : http://www.lamfacial...nt/view/199/47/

Long-Term Benefits of Botox Botox should not be considered merely a luxury therapy performed only for temporary improvement in facial lines. A recent twin study showed that the twin who had regular Botox treatments over 13 years compared to her twin who only had it twice during that time had many fewer wrinkles and also looked significantly better. (Binder WJ, Long-term effects of botulinum toxin A (Botox) on facial lines: A comparison in identical twins. Archives of Facial Plastic Surgery 2006;8:426-431.) This gallery shows individuals whose wrinkles have faded over time only with Botox usage. Remember wrinkles can only get worse over time without Botox or better over time with Botox.

The best analogy to understand how Botox works in the short and the long-term is thinking of the skin as a shirt. Your skin like a shirt is something you wear every day. If you continue to wear a shirt, you will also continue to create wrinkles and creases in it. That is what happens to your skin over time. Fine lines and wrinkles that may only be apparent when you smile or frown become progressively deeper etched in lines even when you do not move your face.

Taking your shirt and putting it on a hanger is like the effect that Botox has on your skin. Even though the creases and wrinkles are still there, over time the wrinkles continue to fade. At the very least, the wrinkles do not get worse over time if you keep the shirt hanging on the hanger. Early lines that are not so deep can actually begin to fade entirely away with consistent use of Botox."

[davpet]

From : http://www.peauonlin...ce Pyramid.html

"Botulinum Toxin is usually used on the upper third of the face (forehead, brows, crow's feet), and rarely around the mouth, another common location for wrinkles. During the 3 months or so that the wrinkles are not being "wrinkled" by constant movement, normal, or "physiologic" collagen remodeling will repair the damaged collagen in the wrinkle, "filling it in", so to speak. The underlying muscles also become weaker from disuse. The net result is that, even though movement may return after 3 months, the wrinkles will be improved for some time after the movement has fully returned. With repetitive Botox treatments, the lines and wrinkles will gradually improve, even without other treatment, and the interval needed to maintain the improvement become longer! With proper sun protection (to prevent further damage to collagen and elastic tissue), topical treatments (to improve the environment for new collagen production), and treatments to stimulate new collagen and elastic tissue production (such as IPL/laser treatments), truly remarkable results can be achieved, without significant risk or downtime. Most patients will only need treatments twice or 3 times a year to maintain the improvement."

Edited by davpet, 08 July 2008 - 11:30 AM.