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Retinol and NOT applying sunscreen frequently


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#1 sentinel

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 09:25 PM


So we have established Retinol can help the appearance and condition of our skin, but also that as a result of the increased cell turn-over we need to take precautionary measures to protect the newly exposed skin with sunscreen as it is even more vulnerable to sun damage.

Fine.

The question I have is : If i get up, exfoliate, apply sunscreen but DON'T re-apply every 2-3 hrs and go to my job working outside, am I likely to come away with a negative net effect? ie would the positive repair effects of retinol be negated unless I diligently re-apply sunscreen every couple of hours?

The reality I have is that Night and morning ritual is one thing but I don't carry sunscreen with me everywhere, and if I 'm spending all day in the garden (how is that vegetable patch going Mind?) would I be better off just not going down the retinol route.

I realise a simple answer is cover up, use screen more often but I'm more interested in the benefit cut-off point.

Sentinel

#2 Lotus

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 09:33 PM

I'm curious about this too. It's summer in Scandinavia, I'm wondering if I should wait until autumn to start on tretinoin.

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#3 Eva Victoria

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 02:55 PM

So we have established Retinol can help the appearance and condition of our skin, but also that as a result of the increased cell turn-over we need to take precautionary measures to protect the newly exposed skin with sunscreen as it is even more vulnerable to sun damage.

Fine.

The question I have is : If i get up, exfoliate, apply sunscreen but DON'T re-apply every 2-3 hrs and go to my job working outside, am I likely to come away with a negative net effect? ie would the positive repair effects of retinol be negated unless I diligently re-apply sunscreen every couple of hours?

The reality I have is that Night and morning ritual is one thing but I don't carry sunscreen with me everywhere, and if I 'm spending all day in the garden (how is that vegetable patch going Mind?) would I be better off just not going down the retinol route.

I realise a simple answer is cover up, use screen more often but I'm more interested in the benefit cut-off point.

Sentinel


If you spend so much time outside without generously reapplying your sunscreen and without a broad-rimmed hat+sunglasses while using RetinA you'll damage your skin more than having the same not-reapplying sunscreen routine without RetinA.
It is like buying a state-of-the-art burglary alarm system, leaving the house with wide-opened windows advertising that I have a n alarm system but I never use it, please come and rob everything I have!

There is only one sunscreen you could apply in the morning without having to reapply it is Physical sunscreens. Sunscreens that contain high level of ZnO + TiO2 like Bioderma Mineral Sunscreen SPF50+, PPD22. Physical agents do not become photo unstable in UV light. Even though they should be reapplied after swimming, toweling or excessive sweating.

#4 Eva Victoria

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 02:59 PM

I'm curious about this too. It's summer in Scandinavia, I'm wondering if I should wait until autumn to start on tretinoin.


Wait till Aug 20th to start with your RetinA usage. If you live in the North of the Polar circle then you can already start in the very beginning of August.
But still use a broad spectrum sunscreen everyday (at least till end of Oct/beginning of Oct if you live above the Polar circle, start again from beg. of March/end of March if North of the PC.) and a hat and sunglasses and don't expose your skin to unnecessary UVrays.

#5 sentinel

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 03:05 PM

So we have established Retinol can help the appearance and condition of our skin, but also that as a result of the increased cell turn-over we need to take precautionary measures to protect the newly exposed skin with sunscreen as it is even more vulnerable to sun damage.

Fine.

The question I have is : If i get up, exfoliate, apply sunscreen but DON'T re-apply every 2-3 hrs and go to my job working outside, am I likely to come away with a negative net effect? ie would the positive repair effects of retinol be negated unless I diligently re-apply sunscreen every couple of hours?

The reality I have is that Night and morning ritual is one thing but I don't carry sunscreen with me everywhere, and if I 'm spending all day in the garden (how is that vegetable patch going Mind?) would I be better off just not going down the retinol route.

I realise a simple answer is cover up, use screen more often but I'm more interested in the benefit cut-off point.

Sentinel


If you spend so much time outside without generously reapplying your sunscreen and without a broad-rimmed hat+sunglasses while using RetinA you'll damage your skin more than having the same not-reapplying sunscreen routine without RetinA.
It is like buying a state-of-the-art burglary alarm system, leaving the house with wide-opened windows advertising that I have a n alarm system but I never use it, please come and rob everything I have!

There is only one sunscreen you could apply in the morning without having to reapply it is Physical sunscreens. Sunscreens that contain high level of ZnO + TiO2 like Bioderma Mineral Sunscreen SPF50+, PPD22. Physical agents do not become photo unstable in UV light. Even though they should be reapplied after swimming, toweling or excessive sweating.


So realistically you think it's necessary to apply about 3-4 times a day? Don't you just walk around looking and feeling a bit greasy-faced all day? And so you really think that looks better than skin aging at a normal rate?

I know skin "health" is great but most concern on skin aging, is more vainity driven than by concerns about getting cancer. (come on be honest ;-) )

#6 Eva Victoria

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 06:01 PM

So we have established Retinol can help the appearance and condition of our skin, but also that as a result of the increased cell turn-over we need to take precautionary measures to protect the newly exposed skin with sunscreen as it is even more vulnerable to sun damage.

Fine.

The question I have is : If i get up, exfoliate, apply sunscreen but DON'T re-apply every 2-3 hrs and go to my job working outside, am I likely to come away with a negative net effect? ie would the positive repair effects of retinol be negated unless I diligently re-apply sunscreen every couple of hours?

The reality I have is that Night and morning ritual is one thing but I don't carry sunscreen with me everywhere, and if I 'm spending all day in the garden (how is that vegetable patch going Mind?) would I be better off just not going down the retinol route.

I realise a simple answer is cover up, use screen more often but I'm more interested in the benefit cut-off point.

Sentinel


If you spend so much time outside without generously reapplying your sunscreen and without a broad-rimmed hat+sunglasses while using RetinA you'll damage your skin more than having the same not-reapplying sunscreen routine without RetinA.
It is like buying a state-of-the-art burglary alarm system, leaving the house with wide-opened windows advertising that I have a n alarm system but I never use it, please come and rob everything I have!

There is only one sunscreen you could apply in the morning without having to reapply it is Physical sunscreens. Sunscreens that contain high level of ZnO + TiO2 like Bioderma Mineral Sunscreen SPF50+, PPD22. Physical agents do not become photo unstable in UV light. Even though they should be reapplied after swimming, toweling or excessive sweating.


So realistically you think it's necessary to apply about 3-4 times a day? Don't you just walk around looking and feeling a bit greasy-faced all day? And so you really think that looks better than skin aging at a normal rate?

I know skin "health" is great but most concern on skin aging, is more vainity driven than by concerns about getting cancer. (come on be honest ;-) )


It is realistic to apply your sunscreen 4 times a day, yes.
The greasiness of your face will depend on what sunscreen you choose. There are some very good sunscreens out there today with good UVA protection and a nice matte-finish without any oily residue left on the skin.

And yes, most concerns about UVR is driven by the aging of the skin. Pure vanity, I know, but it works most of the times and you get the health benefits additionally ;o)

Why reapply your sunscreen every 2h? with attachments
http://www.imminst.o...-2h-t20357.html

What to look for when buying a sunscreen
http://www.imminst.o...een-t22856.html

#7 goatz

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 11:13 PM

Hi Eva

So using Bioderma Mineral Sunscreen SPF50+ once in the morning would be just as good as applying La Roche-Posay Anthelios XL fluide extreme SPF 50+ several times a day ? if so thats great news !!

Are there any negatives of this sunscreen i.e. excessive whitening, smell, greasy, etc ?

Thanks

#8 sentinel

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 08:27 AM

It is realistic to apply your sunscreen 4 times a day, yes.
The greasiness of your face will depend on what sunscreen you choose. There are some very good sunscreens out there today with good UVA protection and a nice matte-finish without any oily residue left on the skin.


I'll make a wild guess that that physical sunscreens are a bit like applying chalky white paint to your face so maybe I'll just have to bite the multiple bullets of re-applying....a lot.

Well I use Bioderma Photoderm Max Fluide SPF 50+ on Fredrik's (always stunning(!)) recommendation, and it's more matte that most, but we're all different and I walk around looking a bit sweaty which is not the look I was after.

Any other matte recommendations, Eva? Or anyone else of course.

#9 Mia K.

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 02:16 PM

It is realistic to apply your sunscreen 4 times a day, yes.
The greasiness of your face will depend on what sunscreen you choose. There are some very good sunscreens out there today with good UVA protection and a nice matte-finish without any oily residue left on the skin.


I'll make a wild guess that that physical sunscreens are a bit like applying chalky white paint to your face so maybe I'll just have to bite the multiple bullets of re-applying....a lot.

Well I use Bioderma Photoderm Max Fluide SPF 50+ on Fredrik's (always stunning(!)) recommendation, and it's more matte that most, but we're all different and I walk around looking a bit sweaty which is not the look I was after.

Any other matte recommendations, Eva? Or anyone else of course.


Sentinel,

I"ve found that applying physical sunscreen is akin to applying Spackle on my face. Definitely not the look nor feel I'm after (I'm also thinking the UVA protection is not as great as it would intuitively seem).

I have RoC Minesol SPF 40 Fragrance Free Velvet Lotion (a sunscreen made by Johnson & Johnson that uses both Tinosorbs, avobenzone (stabilized with octocrylene), and Uvinul A Plus for UVA-protection) on order (tubotica dot com). It contains silica for dry-touch feeling. Reviews on makeupalley dot com are positive --- > comparatively matte and economical, est. PPD 15+.

I'll post results.

I'm two (2) weeks into my Retin-A sensitization and my skin is not happy (read: I'm peeling like a snake).

Show willing. ;o)

Mia

#10 sentinel

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 02:44 PM

It is realistic to apply your sunscreen 4 times a day, yes.
The greasiness of your face will depend on what sunscreen you choose. There are some very good sunscreens out there today with good UVA protection and a nice matte-finish without any oily residue left on the skin.


I'll make a wild guess that that physical sunscreens are a bit like applying chalky white paint to your face so maybe I'll just have to bite the multiple bullets of re-applying....a lot.

Well I use Bioderma Photoderm Max Fluide SPF 50+ on Fredrik's (always stunning(!)) recommendation, and it's more matte that most, but we're all different and I walk around looking a bit sweaty which is not the look I was after.

Any other matte recommendations, Eva? Or anyone else of course.


Sentinel,

I"ve found that applying physical sunscreen is akin to applying Spackle on my face. Definitely not the look nor feel I'm after (I'm also thinking the UVA protection is not as great as it would intuitively seem).

I have RoC Minesol SPF 40 Fragrance Free Velvet Lotion (a sunscreen made by Johnson & Johnson that uses both Tinosorbs, avobenzone (stabilized with octocrylene), and Uvinul A Plus for UVA-protection) on order (tubotica dot com). It contains silica for dry-touch feeling. Reviews on makeupalley dot com are positive --- > comparatively matte and economical, est. PPD 15+.

I'll post results.

I'm two (2) weeks into my Retin-A sensitization and my skin is not happy (read: I'm peeling like a snake).

Show willing. ;o)

Mia


I'll post results.

Thanks for the recommendation Mia, I've been sticking with screens with the Mexoryl filters as these seem to cover the broadest spectrum of protection but the more I'm thinking about it the more I realise that having something I can stand to re-apply is more important ie using 10% protection once a day is not as good as using 98% protection 2-3 times a day.

Do let me know how you get on. And perhaps try dropping down the concentration of your Retinoid or swapping from tretinoin to tazarotene or vice-versa depending on which you are trying - I would have thought your face would have stabilised after 2 weeks.


sentinel

#11 Lotus

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 10:05 PM

I'm curious about this too. It's summer in Scandinavia, I'm wondering if I should wait until autumn to start on tretinoin.


Wait till Aug 20th to start with your RetinA usage. If you live in the North of the Polar circle then you can already start in the very beginning of August.
But still use a broad spectrum sunscreen everyday (at least till end of Oct/beginning of Oct if you live above the Polar circle, start again from beg. of March/end of March if North of the PC.) and a hat and sunglasses and don't expose your skin to unnecessary UVrays.


Thank you Eva. I've used tretinoin for three days only, so I'll stop the treatment and start again at the end of August. I do try to avoid the sun as much as I can, but I don't want to risk damaging my skin by making it more sensitive.

Oh, I have another UV-related question! The windows in our houses and cars, do they offer protection from UV-radiation? I have a feeling that they don't protect very well. And what about clothes, I seem to get some color even under my long-sleeved shirt.

Edited by Lotus, 18 July 2008 - 10:20 PM.


#12 mustardseed41

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 11:55 PM

What about these two sunscreens?

http://www.crownlabo...d/products.html

http://www.eucerinus...e_eplotion.html

Edited by mustardseed41, 19 July 2008 - 12:21 AM.


#13 sdxl

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 12:56 AM

Oh, I have another UV-related question! The windows in our houses and cars, do they offer protection from UV-radiation? I have a feeling that they don't protect very well. And what about clothes, I seem to get some color even under my long-sleeved shirt.

Most UVB is blocked by glass, but this is not the case for UVA. So you need to protect yourself indoors. You might want to wash your clothes in something with Tinosorb FD, like Rit SunGuard.

#14 testxtest

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 03:57 PM

If you use retin-a and sunscreen (that you don't reapply) and you are outside 1 hour everyday (in scandinavia, not in direct sunlight), is it ok?
If this is not ok, what dates can you us retin-a and not reapply sunscreen?

#15 Ben

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 05:25 AM

If you use retin-a and sunscreen (that you don't reapply) and you are outside 1 hour everyday (in scandinavia, not in direct sunlight), is it ok?
If this is not ok, what dates can you us retin-a and not reapply sunscreen?


Get the UV index curve for your city. An hour outside can mean different things depending upon many variables.

#16 Eva Victoria

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 02:47 PM

Hi Goatz!

Theoretically you could get away with not reapplying physical sunscreens as long as you don't sweat or wipe it off.
Physical sunscreens (esp. ZnO) are better at protecting/ shielding your skin from UVA generally.

Of course there is the negative side that these sunscreens tend to be whitening. The whiter the more/longer UVA protection there is.

Bioderma Mineral is a very whitening sunscreen. But protects very well!


Hi Eva

So using Bioderma Mineral Sunscreen SPF50+ once in the morning would be just as good as applying La Roche-Posay Anthelios XL fluide extreme SPF 50+ several times a day ? if so thats great news !!

Are there any negatives of this sunscreen i.e. excessive whitening, smell, greasy, etc ?

Thanks



#17 Eva Victoria

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 02:52 PM

I also used Bioderma Photoderm Fluide Max SPF50+ and I ended up with the same conclusion as you: "looking a bit sweaty which is not the look I was after".
Bioderma Mineral SPF50+ is much more dewy, matte and generally a nicer sunscreen if you are not bothered by the whiteness.
Nothing is perfect I guess.

I still find Nivea Light Feeling Sensation sunscreen Spf30 or 50 the most cosmetically acceptable sunscreen I have seen. It is matt, non greasy and an ok sunscreen esp. if you add 20%ZnO additionaly into the sunscreen to boost its UVa protection. BTW, it has 5 stars on the UK bottle. But I don't believe it has such a good UVA protection though.



It is realistic to apply your sunscreen 4 times a day, yes.
The greasiness of your face will depend on what sunscreen you choose. There are some very good sunscreens out there today with good UVA protection and a nice matte-finish without any oily residue left on the skin.


I'll make a wild guess that that physical sunscreens are a bit like applying chalky white paint to your face so maybe I'll just have to bite the multiple bullets of re-applying....a lot.

Well I use Bioderma Photoderm Max Fluide SPF 50+ on Fredrik's (always stunning(!)) recommendation, and it's more matte that most, but we're all different and I walk around looking a bit sweaty which is not the look I was after.

Any other matte recommendations, Eva? Or anyone else of course.



#18 Eva Victoria

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 02:56 PM

If you use retin-a and sunscreen (that you don't reapply) and you are outside 1 hour everyday (in scandinavia, not in direct sunlight), is it ok?
If this is not ok, what dates can you us retin-a and not reapply sunscreen?


From mid Oct till end of Febr it should be all right to be outside even without any sunscreen if you live in Sweden, Finnland or Norway.

Here is the Uv index for Norway/Oslo

http://www.nrpa.no/u...00d8ster%u00e5s

#19 Eva Victoria

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 03:01 PM

What about these two sunscreens?

http://www.crownlabo...d/products.html

http://www.eucerinus...e_eplotion.html


Blue lizzard sunscreen seems to be a good alternative to me.

Find more about US sunscreens:

http://cosmeticsdata...sunscreens2008/

#20 sentinel

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 07:56 AM

Thanks Eva, that's very helpful. As is so often the case I think it's a trade off between ideal regime and something pragmatic enough to be consistently usable.

I'll pop those recommendations in the "Matte sunscreen" topic so we don't end up running in parallel.

sentinel

I also used Bioderma Photoderm Fluide Max SPF50+ and I ended up with the same conclusion as you: "looking a bit sweaty which is not the look I was after".
Bioderma Mineral SPF50+ is much more dewy, matte and generally a nicer sunscreen if you are not bothered by the whiteness.
Nothing is perfect I guess.

I still find Nivea Light Feeling Sensation sunscreen Spf30 or 50 the most cosmetically acceptable sunscreen I have seen. It is matt, non greasy and an ok sunscreen esp. if you add 20%ZnO additionaly into the sunscreen to boost its UVa protection. BTW, it has 5 stars on the UK bottle. But I don't believe it has such a good UVA protection though.



It is realistic to apply your sunscreen 4 times a day, yes.
The greasiness of your face will depend on what sunscreen you choose. There are some very good sunscreens out there today with good UVA protection and a nice matte-finish without any oily residue left on the skin.


I'll make a wild guess that that physical sunscreens are a bit like applying chalky white paint to your face so maybe I'll just have to bite the multiple bullets of re-applying....a lot.

Well I use Bioderma Photoderm Max Fluide SPF 50+ on Fredrik's (always stunning(!)) recommendation, and it's more matte that most, but we're all different and I walk around looking a bit sweaty which is not the look I was after.

Any other matte recommendations, Eva? Or anyone else of course.






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