7 replies to this topic

[vadim]

One of the futuristic concepts which might be implied by vision of singularity is the concept of “resurrection”. This concept was discussed in various religious communities. But till now, it gets limited attention from science. I wonder that, resent developments in genetics, forensics science, computer simulation and cosmology can bring some attention to this problem from Transhumanist community.
It might be possible that genetic engineering and cloning will provide a way to bring back extinct organisms. Virtual Reality, Simulation of Past Historical Events and large scale geo-ecological simulations (like Earth Simulator from Japan - http://www.earthsimulator.org.uk/) can provide an environment to reconstruct the past historical events.
Thus, we might be able at some point have enough knowledge to perform complete reconstruction of real historical personages.


Also, It might reflect some resent work in cosmology by Stephen Hawking, Leonard Susskind and Frank J. Tipler suggest that information can not be lost in universe and universe it-self evolve toward the state (omega-point) where resurrection might occur.

[forever freedom]

They would just be very good copies of the real people that are already dead. But if that's what you're suggesting instead of a real ressurection, then it's a good idea.

[vyntager]

Also, It might reflect some resent work in cosmology by Stephen Hawking, Leonard Susskind and Frank J. Tipler suggest that information can not be lost in universe and universe it-self evolve toward the state (omega-point) where resurrection might occur.

Like the ideal of universal immortalism ? (http://www.universal....org/WDraft.htm)

Thus, we might be able at some point have enough knowledge to perform complete reconstruction of real historical personages.

Let's say we have the Omega point, and every possible human being, is simulated. It's all good for them (well actually maybe not, since a lot would suffer or have memories of past traumatic experiences, etc.) - how do you tell who's that person who lived, say, Newton, from another simulated guy who's almost exactly the same ?

You could reconstruct an approximation of someone, within the boundaries of what you know about that person. If what you know isn't infinitely precise, then there'll be several ways you could "resurrect" that person, each of which would be indistinguishible from the other, to the limit of your knowledge. Among them would be the one who really correspond to the historical character, but there's no way to know.

It seems likely that we won't have enough information to have infinitely precise knowledge of the past, for to have such a level of precision would violate the second law of thermodynamics, essentially pulling order out of chaos, reversing entropy. Thus any universal resurrection would have to resimulate a lot more people than what's existed, just to make sure the ones we were ooking for are there.

Assuming the worst case, that is, the least information, you would have to have an infinite amound of memory and computation power, allowing you to resimulate any possible human being - that's the idea in the Omega point of Tipler. You'd then have the certainty that any past human being had been resimulated, you just wouldn't be able to tell which of those billion almost similar guys were the exact copy of the original one.

[vadim]

They would just be very good copies of the real people that are already dead. But if that's what you're suggesting instead of a real ressurection, then it's a good idea.

How would you define or describe the "real" resurrection ? It is very interesting topic, I would be very interested to collect different opinions

[vadim]

Also, It might reflect some resent work in cosmology by Stephen Hawking, Leonard Susskind and Frank J. Tipler suggest that information can not be lost in universe and universe it-self evolve toward the state (omega-point) where resurrection might occur.

Like the ideal of universal immortalism ? (http://www.universal....org/WDraft.htm)

Thus, we might be able at some point have enough knowledge to perform complete reconstruction of real historical personages.

Let's say we have the Omega point, and every possible human being, is simulated. It's all good for them (well actually maybe not, since a lot would suffer or have memories of past traumatic experiences, etc.) - how do you tell who's that person who lived, say, Newton, from another simulated guy who's almost exactly the same ?

You could reconstruct an approximation of someone, within the boundaries of what you know about that person. If what you know isn't infinitely precise, then there'll be several ways you could "resurrect" that person, each of which would be indistinguishible from the other, to the limit of your knowledge. Among them would be the one who really correspond to the historical character, but there's no way to know.

It seems likely that we won't have enough information to have infinitely precise knowledge of the past, for to have such a level of precision would violate the second law of thermodynamics, essentially pulling order out of chaos, reversing entropy. Thus any universal resurrection would have to resimulate a lot more people than what's existed, just to make sure the ones we were ooking for are there.

Assuming the worst case, that is, the least information, you would have to have an infinite amound of memory and computation power, allowing you to resimulate any possible human being - that's the idea in the Omega point of Tipler. You'd then have the certainty that any past human being had been resimulated, you just wouldn't be able to tell which of those billion almost similar guys were the exact copy of the original one.

Thanks, you gave me few interesting points.

First is Information - well, to reconstruct hologram (which we do sometimes here at UCSD, www.nbirn.net) I do not need to have complete information stored on the plate. I just need to perform some operations and will have the result.

May be (this is just a thought) - general reconstruction task will not require complete knowledge from information theory point of view. As far as such information preserved and distributed across the universe then it might be possible to develop holography-"like" approach.

[Cyberbrain]

After the Singularity, it wouldn't take much to "resurrect" somebody. All your memories with maybe a DNA sample of a deceased person may be all it takes to bring them back. A computer simulation wouldn't necessary be needed. An AGI to the level of human intelligence and consciousness along with all your memories of that person could be enough to bring them back. Or at least a good enough illusion that we couldn't tell the difference.

After we learn how consciousness works, the rest is easy.

[solbanger]

Also, It might reflect some resent work in cosmology by Stephen Hawking, Leonard Susskind and Frank J. Tipler suggest that information can not be lost in universe and universe it-self evolve toward the state (omega-point) where resurrection might occur.

Like the ideal of universal immortalism ? (http://www.universal....org/WDraft.htm)

Thus, we might be able at some point have enough knowledge to perform complete reconstruction of real historical personages.

Let's say we have the Omega point, and every possible human being, is simulated. It's all good for them (well actually maybe not, since a lot would suffer or have memories of past traumatic experiences, etc.) - how do you tell who's that person who lived, say, Newton, from another simulated guy who's almost exactly the same ?

You could reconstruct an approximation of someone, within the boundaries of what you know about that person. If what you know isn't infinitely precise, then there'll be several ways you could "resurrect" that person, each of which would be indistinguishible from the other, to the limit of your knowledge. Among them would be the one who really correspond to the historical character, but there's no way to know.

It seems likely that we won't have enough information to have infinitely precise knowledge of the past, for to have such a level of precision would violate the second law of thermodynamics, essentially pulling order out of chaos, reversing entropy. Thus any universal resurrection would have to resimulate a lot more people than what's existed, just to make sure the ones we were ooking for are there.

Assuming the worst case, that is, the least information, you would have to have an infinite amound of memory and computation power, allowing you to resimulate any possible human being - that's the idea in the Omega point of Tipler. You'd then have the certainty that any past human being had been resimulated, you just wouldn't be able to tell which of those billion almost similar guys were the exact copy of the original one.

God I love these outlandish projection topics. Resurrection of the dead would be a logical next step to pursue once immortality is perfected, and with it comes all of the consequences of being able to restore an untold number of human and animal (don't forget the pets!) ancestors, with only one planet Earth to keep them on. However the idea of fashioning the Earth into a big computer where time travel can be achieved by going back to the Omega Point, or as most people call it in computer terms the restoration point, has been around for a long time. In essence time travel being the memorization of structure at any given point, kind of like being able to restore your desktop settings back to factory settings no matter how many links to old pinball PC games you have tossed up there. The sophistication of the time machine then lies in the amount of information you are able to photograph. Simple machines would be able to memorize the position of scale objects such as furniture, buildings and the like as well as the effects that occur to them over time such as mold, bruises, retouches etc. More complicated machines could track more than just approximate objects but plot the spin of atoms throughout a metropolis, leading to the recording of abstract events such as feelings and thoughts.

But then again projecting aside. We're just too unsophisticated to predict what or how resurrection would come about. The evidence of fuzzy logic dictating the rules of larger matter in the universe means that straightforward projecting may be too rudimentary. Heck as mentioned before resurrection might be a matter of discovering what a soul is, and the potential to create a body for these illuminated spirits. Who knows?

Edited by solbanger, 23 July 2008 - 09:06 PM.

[vyntager]

First is Information - well, to reconstruct hologram (which we do sometimes here at UCSD, www.nbirn.net) I do not need to have complete information stored on the plate. I just need to perform some operations and will have the result.

May be (this is just a thought) - general reconstruction task will not require complete knowledge from information theory point of view. As far as such information preserved and distributed across the universe then it might be possible to develop holography-"like" approach.

But that is because holograms are redundant, aren't they ? I meant information in the Kolmogorov sense, information that you couldn't compress anymore, information at maximum entropy, without any redundance.

After all, if I told you which bank I'm using, you would have enough information to reconstitute my card number. Along with any other possible card number that bank can emit in principle. You'd be sure about a few numbers, but not about all of them. Yet, you'd know that, among all those numbers you generated, was that of my card.

So yes you have enough information to reconstruct, but not to pinpoint which part of your reconstruction was that you were searching for.