39 replies to this topic

[mike250]

so now we're the disease and the planet is supposed to be god. how very thoughtful of this "Dr"

[Cody]

so now we're the disease and the planet is supposed to be god. how very thoughtful of this "Dr"

Huh?

[mike250]

I can't believe a person could say something like that and be serious about it.

Not even as an analogy with the CeNSE describes as a nervous system? I don't see how its so ridiculous. Its obvious the way we use the resources of the earth currently is not sustainable and I'm not talking about global warming. We are polluting fresh drinking water to a point where millions must live of sewage water, cutting down huge areas of precious forest without replacement, burning off massive amounts of oil without replacement, dumping huge amounts of toxic waste into the oceans, aggressively overfishing the oceans to the point of depletion in many areas. At the same time we can only sustain relatively decent living standards for less than half the human population. If this continues without radical improvement (which is in the pipe) we would destroy our own means of survival. Global warming is peanuts compared to these problems.

To be honest I find it rather discouraging that some people can not see the analogy. Its an indication that the problems of the world are too distant to bother, or a complete lack of knowledge of the impact humans are having on the earth today.

or maybe its just an unnecessary orthodoxy.

[niner]

Oh my god, I can't even tell you how much I disagree with that. We're getting more and more efficient at using EVERY source of energy. Including oil. The entire world is beginning to cut back on carbon dioxide levles. What you believe is that the ENTIRE world has to be brought to their knees!? I should be praying for higher gas prices??? Oh my god. Definitely a democrat influenced belief. Besides, we're gonna begin using natural gas instead.

Look at the proof. JUST $4 gas has driven up the demand for hybrids, electrics, bio disel, wind and solar. T bone pickens even wants to spend billions to lobby the government into placing windmills up the center of the nation. Disagree with me all you want, facts speak for themselves.

Just to let you know, I am registered as a republican. But, sorting your opinions based on two very broad political ideologies is akin to being herded like a sheep.

Well yeah, what do you expect? THEIR KILLING THE COUNTRY. Also, where is your proof? Not that I don't believe you. I don't care what you say though, doing this to people is wrong. Your wrong in my opinion. So don't act like you are god and that there is NO WAY to dispute the things you say.

What are you talking about? You don't even know me.

Cody, bobscrachy just handed you a collection of facts, which I bolded above. Those things are true to the best of my knowledge. If you want to dispute them, then present the evidence necessary. Don't accuse people of acting like god just because you don't believe the facts they present.

I never disputed that they weren't true. I agreed with him.

"Well yeah, what do you expect?" "Also, where is your proof? Not that I don't believe you."

All I said is that doing this to people is wrong. It shouldn't be done this way. THAT was my dispute. And all he had to say to it was an idiotic remark. He was acting as if what he said was true and there was no other way to go around it. That's what gods tend to do. See me connection now? I asked where his proof was because I wanted to see if he had a page or something that would be interesting.

Anyways, I stand behind what I say. Not out stuborness, but because I truly believe that forcing people into submission is the wrong way to go about it.

OK, you're being a little hard to follow. I don't see what bobscrachy said that was idiotic; everything he said is true. I also don't see where he was acting like god. So you were looking for a reference for the T. Boone Pickens stuff or all the new transportation technology? Just google pickens, try http://www.greencarcongress.com/ for new energy technology. People aren't being forced into submission at gunpoint. This is just the free market at work. The demand for oil has gone up faster than supply, so the price goes up. There are some other factors, like Greenspan kept interest rates too low for too long, and the Bush Administration runs massive deficits, so the dollar goes to hell. That makes the price of oil in dollars go up even more than the supply/demand equation alone. Speculators are also pushing prices up, as well as down. No one is being forced to drive vehicles that are too large; that was a choice they made of their own free will. I know the cost of gas is hurting people now. It could have been avoided if Washington had the balls to tell Detroit to make cars that got better gas mileage even though gas was cheap in the 90's. But Republicans would say that was interference in the Free Market. So you got a free market here; no forcing into submission.
Since you're new around here, I should point out that the forum rules say you shouldn't attack people. It's ok to question their assumptions and their logic, but try not to call them names.

[Reno]

No use arguing with him. He can't handle other points of view. It's a waste of energy.

Edited by bobscrachy, 28 July 2008 - 04:01 AM.

[Cody]

Oh my god, I can't even tell you how much I disagree with that. We're getting more and more efficient at using EVERY source of energy. Including oil. The entire world is beginning to cut back on carbon dioxide levles. What you believe is that the ENTIRE world has to be brought to their knees!? I should be praying for higher gas prices??? Oh my god. Definitely a democrat influenced belief. Besides, we're gonna begin using natural gas instead.

Look at the proof. JUST $4 gas has driven up the demand for hybrids, electrics, bio disel, wind and solar. T bone pickens even wants to spend billions to lobby the government into placing windmills up the center of the nation. Disagree with me all you want, facts speak for themselves.

Just to let you know, I am registered as a republican. But, sorting your opinions based on two very broad political ideologies is akin to being herded like a sheep.

Well yeah, what do you expect? THEIR KILLING THE COUNTRY. Also, where is your proof? Not that I don't believe you. I don't care what you say though, doing this to people is wrong. Your wrong in my opinion. So don't act like you are god and that there is NO WAY to dispute the things you say.

What are you talking about? You don't even know me.

Cody, bobscrachy just handed you a collection of facts, which I bolded above. Those things are true to the best of my knowledge. If you want to dispute them, then present the evidence necessary. Don't accuse people of acting like god just because you don't believe the facts they present.

I never disputed that they weren't true. I agreed with him.

"Well yeah, what do you expect?" "Also, where is your proof? Not that I don't believe you."

All I said is that doing this to people is wrong. It shouldn't be done this way. THAT was my dispute. And all he had to say to it was an idiotic remark. He was acting as if what he said was true and there was no other way to go around it. That's what gods tend to do. See me connection now? I asked where his proof was because I wanted to see if he had a page or something that would be interesting.

Anyways, I stand behind what I say. Not out stuborness, but because I truly believe that forcing people into submission is the wrong way to go about it.

OK, you're being a little hard to follow. I don't see what bobscrachy said that was idiotic; everything he said is true. I also don't see where he was acting like god. So you were looking for a reference for the T. Boone Pickens stuff or all the new transportation technology? Just google pickens, try http://www.greencarcongress.com/ for new energy technology. People aren't being forced into submission at gunpoint. This is just the free market at work. The demand for oil has gone up faster than supply, so the price goes up. There are some other factors, like Greenspan kept interest rates too low for too long, and the Bush Administration runs massive deficits, so the dollar goes to hell. That makes the price of oil in dollars go up even more than the supply/demand equation alone. Speculators are also pushing prices up, as well as down. No one is being forced to drive vehicles that are too large; that was a choice they made of their own free will. I know the cost of gas is hurting people now. It could have been avoided if Washington had the balls to tell Detroit to make cars that got better gas mileage even though gas was cheap in the 90's. But Republicans would say that was interference in the Free Market. So you got a free market here; no forcing into submission.
Since you're new around here, I should point out that the forum rules say you shouldn't attack people. It's ok to question their assumptions and their logic, but try not to call them names.

I'm talking about his little "Drugs are bad champ" remark. Did you not see that?? The reason I'm saying that he's acting god like is because he's not even considering the fact that maybe this isn't how it should be done. And really, it's probably the worst way to do it. Actually, the real reason gas prices won't go down is because we aren't able to drill for it because democrats believe that drilling for oil is a bad idea. So yeah, you're right. Demand is up because theres not enough. Because democrats are opposing oil drilling. Thats a fact right there.

Pff, sorry man. But that remark was idiotic.

[Cody]

No use arguing with him. He can't handle other points of view. It's a waste of energy.

I can handle your point of view all day. And if you could see other points of views you'd be able to see my logic.

[niner]

OK, you're being a little hard to follow. I don't see what bobscrachy said that was idiotic; everything he said is true. I also don't see where he was acting like god. So you were looking for a reference for the T. Boone Pickens stuff or all the new transportation technology? Just google pickens, try http://www.greencarcongress.com/ for new energy technology. People aren't being forced into submission at gunpoint. This is just the free market at work. The demand for oil has gone up faster than supply, so the price goes up. There are some other factors, like Greenspan kept interest rates too low for too long, and the Bush Administration runs massive deficits, so the dollar goes to hell. That makes the price of oil in dollars go up even more than the supply/demand equation alone. Speculators are also pushing prices up, as well as down. No one is being forced to drive vehicles that are too large; that was a choice they made of their own free will. I know the cost of gas is hurting people now. It could have been avoided if Washington had the balls to tell Detroit to make cars that got better gas mileage even though gas was cheap in the 90's. But Republicans would say that was interference in the Free Market. So you got a free market here; no forcing into submission.
Since you're new around here, I should point out that the forum rules say you shouldn't attack people. It's ok to question their assumptions and their logic, but try not to call them names.

I'm talking about his little "Drugs are bad champ" remark. Did you not see that?? The reason I'm saying that he's acting god like is because he's not even considering the fact that maybe this isn't how it should be done. And really, it's probably the worst way to do it. Actually, the real reason gas prices won't go down is because we aren't able to drill for it because democrats believe that drilling for oil is a bad idea. So yeah, you're right. Demand is up because theres not enough. Because democrats are opposing oil drilling. Thats a fact right there.

Pff, sorry man. But that remark was idiotic.

Everything I was talking about was before "Drugs are bad". Since you're presenting some facts here, I'll comment on them. I believe we are now in the beginning of "Peak Oil", where the cheap, easy-to-get oil is starting to run low. Our new discoveries are all in hellish places like deep water or the Arctic, and this new oil is more expensive. All the drilling in the world is only going to postpone the end of oil a little while longer. This simply isn't a problem we can drill ourselves out of. We need to stop relying on finite fossil fuels, and start using renewables. If we start drilling today, we won't see that oil for 8-10 years, so it really isn't going to be all that much help. By that time, we will all have vehicles that get much better gas mileage, or don't even use gas. There is not enough oil TODAY because the oil companies stopped a lot of their exploring 10 or 15 years ago because oil was insanely cheap. Democrats didn't have anything to do with that. That was supply and demand, and maybe bad decisions on the part of the oil companies. Or maybe not. They are making unheard of profits right now, so maybe this is exactly what they wanted.

[mike250]

OK, you're being a little hard to follow. I don't see what bobscrachy said that was idiotic; everything he said is true. I also don't see where he was acting like god. So you were looking for a reference for the T. Boone Pickens stuff or all the new transportation technology? Just google pickens, try http://www.greencarcongress.com/ for new energy technology. People aren't being forced into submission at gunpoint. This is just the free market at work. The demand for oil has gone up faster than supply, so the price goes up. There are some other factors, like Greenspan kept interest rates too low for too long, and the Bush Administration runs massive deficits, so the dollar goes to hell. That makes the price of oil in dollars go up even more than the supply/demand equation alone. Speculators are also pushing prices up, as well as down. No one is being forced to drive vehicles that are too large; that was a choice they made of their own free will. I know the cost of gas is hurting people now. It could have been avoided if Washington had the balls to tell Detroit to make cars that got better gas mileage even though gas was cheap in the 90's. But Republicans would say that was interference in the Free Market. So you got a free market here; no forcing into submission.
Since you're new around here, I should point out that the forum rules say you shouldn't attack people. It's ok to question their assumptions and their logic, but try not to call them names.

I'm talking about his little "Drugs are bad champ" remark. Did you not see that?? The reason I'm saying that he's acting god like is because he's not even considering the fact that maybe this isn't how it should be done. And really, it's probably the worst way to do it. Actually, the real reason gas prices won't go down is because we aren't able to drill for it because democrats believe that drilling for oil is a bad idea. So yeah, you're right. Demand is up because theres not enough. Because democrats are opposing oil drilling. Thats a fact right there.

Pff, sorry man. But that remark was idiotic.

Everything I was talking about was before "Drugs are bad". Since you're presenting some facts here, I'll comment on them. I believe we are now in the beginning of "Peak Oil", where the cheap, easy-to-get oil is starting to run low. Our new discoveries are all in hellish places like deep water or the Arctic, and this new oil is more expensive. All the drilling in the world is only going to postpone the end of oil a little while longer. This simply isn't a problem we can drill ourselves out of. We need to stop relying on finite fossil fuels, and start using renewables. If we start drilling today, we won't see that oil for 8-10 years, so it really isn't going to be all that much help. By that time, we will all have vehicles that get much better gas mileage, or don't even use gas. There is not enough oil TODAY because the oil companies stopped a lot of their exploring 10 or 15 years ago because oil was insanely cheap. Democrats didn't have anything to do with that. That was supply and demand, and maybe bad decisions on the part of the oil companies. Or maybe not. They are making unheard of profits right now, so maybe this is exactly what they wanted.

I partially agree with you but.....

At the present time the alternative energy route has quite some negative consequences (ethanol = land/food issues; solar/hybrids = extensive strip mining), and still requires huge subsidies (taxes on you and me) to be economically palatable to even a small minority of consumers. (What has SERI produced in Golden, other than a cool web site??) Continue the research, yes, but alternative energy reliability is further out than 8-10 years. I do believe that we should continue drilling in these areas- it will not reduce oil prices but the cost of such energy remains high enough to increase the economic feasibility of alternative energy sources.

Edited by mike250, 28 July 2008 - 06:08 AM.

[niner]

Everything I was talking about was before "Drugs are bad". Since you're presenting some facts here, I'll comment on them. I believe we are now in the beginning of "Peak Oil", where the cheap, easy-to-get oil is starting to run low. Our new discoveries are all in hellish places like deep water or the Arctic, and this new oil is more expensive. All the drilling in the world is only going to postpone the end of oil a little while longer. This simply isn't a problem we can drill ourselves out of. We need to stop relying on finite fossil fuels, and start using renewables. If we start drilling today, we won't see that oil for 8-10 years, so it really isn't going to be all that much help. By that time, we will all have vehicles that get much better gas mileage, or don't even use gas. There is not enough oil TODAY because the oil companies stopped a lot of their exploring 10 or 15 years ago because oil was insanely cheap. Democrats didn't have anything to do with that. That was supply and demand, and maybe bad decisions on the part of the oil companies. Or maybe not. They are making unheard of profits right now, so maybe this is exactly what they wanted.

At the present time the alternative energy route has quite some negative consequences (ethanol = land/food issues; solar/hybrids = extensive strip mining), and still requires huge subsidies (taxes on you and me) to be economically palatable to even a small minority of consumers. (What has SERI produced in Golden, other than a cool web site??) Continue the research, yes, but alternative energy reliability is further out than 8-10 years. I do believe that we should continue drilling in these areas- it will not reduce oil prices but the cost of such energy remains high enough to increase the economic feasibility of alternative energy sources.

I agree about ethanol; it's largely a boondoggle as presently done. If someone can get cellulosic ethanol working cheaply, that would be different. I don't agree about the extensive strip mining for solar and hybrids. There was one article that made that claim, but it had some bad assumptions and I think it's been debunked. At any rate, it was based on NiMH technology which is on the way out. Hybrids don't seem to need subsidies any more. Home Solar is still too expensive, though the prices of cells continue to drop with advances in amorphous cells. The thing that is really rocking at the moment is wind. We are adding wind capacity as fast as we can build the turbines. It is serious capacity, too, as in multiple gigawatts per year. I think it's competitive without subsidies now.

Subsidies are not all bad; you can build an industry with subsidies, and develop the manufacturing capacity to make them cheap and affordable, then you can stop the subsidy. What really makes no sense at all is subsidizing mature industries, like oil, agriculture, and internal combustion engines. We presently have subsidies for all of these which serve no purpose other than to transfer money from taxpayers to a small number of people. Actually, the lack of subsidies here in America for solar and wind has caused those industries to develop a lot more strongly in other countries. We should be leading in the technologies of the future instead of subsidizing the technology of the past.

A little offshore drilling wouldn't be the end of the world, if it were done right. I don't think it will do as much good as some people claim, but it wouldn't kill us. Can we get the oil companies to pay for it, though? If it's federal land, then that oil belongs to us; we should get compensated. I don't begrudge them a fair profit, but giving them oil for free or below market is just another subsidy.