103 replies to this topic

[Cody]

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like America is going a little socialist on us? What do you guys think?

Edited by Cody, 26 July 2008 - 08:27 PM.

[Athanasios]

I hear you. I think in many areas we should be going the opposite direction. Obama's promises are costly and his cost cutting vague, it makes me cringe...but then again he has already broke a few promises and Clinton changed his tune when budget reality kicked in. I am still supportive of the war effort but am saddened that nobody has put pressure on others to help foot the bill, especially Britain who's Tony Blair lobbied for U.S. invasion through the Clinton admin and into the Bush admin.

Edited by cnorwood, 26 July 2008 - 10:52 PM.

[Cody]

Agreed. Not only that though. With Obama in office, say hello to 12 dollar gas my friend! I support the war, too. Theres more who support the war than tv makes it seem. Most stations are run by democrats. Therefore, bias runs rampant.

This is kinda random, but who thinks we should drill for oil/natural gas? To me (Actually in fact too), our country is being crippled by gas prices. As gas goes up, everything goes up with it! How do you think the food gets to stores for you to buy? Gas, man. When gas goes up, the cost of most other things rises, too. It's a horrible chain reaction. It's pillaging and raping the economy.

[biknut]

The really sad thing is a lot of people in America think it would be a good idea to go socialist, and many of them are high ranking Democrats..

I think it might seem worse than it really is though, because with all the hype Obama is getting, the polls show Obama and McCain running almost dead even. This is in spite of the fact that McCain isn't well liked, but socialist he's not.

[niner]

Agreed. Not only that though. With Obama in office, say hello to 12 dollar gas my friend! I support the war, too. Theres more who support the war than tv makes it seem. Most stations are run by democrats. Therefore, bias runs rampant.

This is kinda random, but who thinks we should drill for oil/natural gas? To me (Actually in fact too), our country is being crippled by gas prices. As gas goes up, everything goes up with it! How do you think the food gets to stores for you to buy? Gas, man. When gas goes up, the cost of most other things rises, too. It's a horrible chain reaction. It's pillaging and raping the economy.

Yeah, damn Democrats caused these gas prices. We ought just take 'em all out and shoot 'em. I totally hear you, Cody. Obama will probably cause 20 dollar gas! We'll all be breakin' rocks in the hot sun. Those of us with enough gonads to resist will find ourselves in Democrat Re-education camps. There will be a giant screen TV with Hillary or some other feminazi constantly berating us. I suspect that they will castrate us, too. Jesse Jackson's already talking about it, so you know it's coming. Of course they will take our guns away. That's the first thing they do. Either that or there will be enough soy in the drinking water to make us all gay.

[mike250]

as it stands now there is a stagflation and I don't believe any presidential candidate is going to change that by using conventional financial tools. No matter how many times the Fed changes the fed funds rate or cuts the interest rate, investors will not respond well to increasing fuel costs and food costs for inefficient ethanol fund allocation. Large companies incurring any transportation/food costs are suffering as are their respectful sectors. Add to that the emerging economies in China and India. OPEC is only going to get larger with the addition of Brazil soon. We should be drilling offshore and in Alaska right now. Global warming is a problem but the opportunity costs of drilling and causing X dollars in wildlife damage is worth having enough oil and cheaper global prices to have a steady and comfortable transfer over to alternative fuel sources.

[biknut]

Agreed. Not only that though. With Obama in office, say hello to 12 dollar gas my friend! I support the war, too. Theres more who support the war than tv makes it seem. Most stations are run by democrats. Therefore, bias runs rampant.

This is kinda random, but who thinks we should drill for oil/natural gas? To me (Actually in fact too), our country is being crippled by gas prices. As gas goes up, everything goes up with it! How do you think the food gets to stores for you to buy? Gas, man. When gas goes up, the cost of most other things rises, too. It's a horrible chain reaction. It's pillaging and raping the economy.

Yeah, damn Democrats caused these gas prices. We ought just take 'em all out and shoot 'em. I totally hear you, Cody. Obama will probably cause 20 dollar gas! We'll all be breakin' rocks in the hot sun. Those of us with enough gonads to resist will find ourselves in Democrat Re-education camps. There will be a giant screen TV with Hillary or some other feminazi constantly berating us. I suspect that they will castrate us, too. Jesse Jackson's already talking about it, so you know it's coming. Of course they will take our guns away. That's the first thing they do. Either that or there will be enough soy in the drinking water to make us all gay.

I know you're trying to be sarcastic, but I think you're right about the guns. Just look a the recent Supreme Court decision. 4 out of 9 of the justices would have liked to allow just that. Those 4 were the most liberal. Only one more and it would have come to pass.

[niner]

I know you're trying to be sarcastic, but I think you're right about the guns. Just look a the recent Supreme Court decision. 4 out of 9 of the justices would have liked to allow just that. Those 4 were the most liberal. Only one more and it would have come to pass.

I'm pretty sure that case was a lot more limited than disarming the entire country. Wasn't it about DC's handgun ban? That ban had been around for decades. IMHO, there's nothing like a shotgun for home defense, if you think you need it. Nothing gets a guy's attention like the sound of a shotgun being cocked. There's also a lot to be said for a realistic threat appraisal, which for most Americans is pretty darn small.

[biknut]

I'm pretty sure that case was a lot more limited than disarming the entire country. Wasn't it about DC's handgun ban?

The ruling applies to the whole country. If the justices had allowed DC to be disarmed, the whole country could have been disarmed. 4 justices were good with that.

Edited by biknut, 27 July 2008 - 04:54 AM.

[niner]

I'm pretty sure that case was a lot more limited than disarming the entire country. Wasn't it about DC's handgun ban?

The ruling applies to the whole country. If the justices had allowed DC to be disarmed, the whole country could have been disarmed. 4 justices were good with that.

Well, 4 justices were for local control. 5 justices were in favor of imposing a federal point of view on localities. Given that DC had already been disarmed for a quarter century, it really didn't look like we were in much danger of the rest of the country being disarmed. BTW, was the DC ban just handguns, or was it all guns? I thought it was handguns. Like I said, a handgun wouldn't be my first choice anyway. I don't see much point in them, unless you want concealed carry.

[mike250]

I'm pretty sure that case was a lot more limited than disarming the entire country. Wasn't it about DC's handgun ban?

The ruling applies to the whole country. If the justices had allowed DC to be disarmed, the whole country could have been disarmed. 4 justices were good with that.

yeah the narrow 5-4 vote was disturbing.

[mike250]

I'm pretty sure that case was a lot more limited than disarming the entire country. Wasn't it about DC's handgun ban?

The ruling applies to the whole country. If the justices had allowed DC to be disarmed, the whole country could have been disarmed. 4 justices were good with that.

Well, 4 justices were for local control. 5 justices were in favor of imposing a federal point of view on localities. Given that DC had already been disarmed for a quarter century, it really didn't look like we were in much danger of the rest of the country being disarmed. BTW, was the DC ban just handguns, or was it all guns? I thought it was handguns. Like I said, a handgun wouldn't be my first choice anyway. I don't see much point in them, unless you want concealed carry.

the ban was on handgun possession if I correctly remember. I was amused at Justice Scalia's comment ..."the two sides in this case have set out very different interpretations of the [second] amendment.."

Edited by mike250, 27 July 2008 - 05:08 AM.

[biknut]

Global warming is a problem but the opportunity costs of drilling and causing X dollars in wildlife damage is worth having enough oil and cheaper global prices to have a steady and comfortable transfer over to alternative fuel sources.

Well, Even if you believe in man made global warming, and I don't, I doubt us drilling for our own oil will have much affect on GW because whether we drill of not the same amount of oil is going to be used. There's no shortage of oil. It's just if we don't drill the cost we pay will be a lot higher.

[biknut]

was the DC ban just handguns, or was it all guns? I thought it was handguns. Like I said, a handgun wouldn't be my first choice anyway. I don't see much point in them, unless you want concealed carry.

The thing is, if they were allowed to ban hand guns, they could just as well ban any other guns too. If DC could do it, any city, or state could do it.

BTW I've never owned a gun.

[brokenportal]

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like America is going a little socialist on us? What do you guys think?

Are you saying thats bad? Your not hoping that the schism between rich and poor gets bigger are you?

Either that or there will be enough soy in the drinking water to make us all gay.

That is exactly what one of those senators was proposing in this article, just kidding, that didnt happen. At least not yet.

[Cody]

Agreed. Not only that though. With Obama in office, say hello to 12 dollar gas my friend! I support the war, too. Theres more who support the war than tv makes it seem. Most stations are run by democrats. Therefore, bias runs rampant.

This is kinda random, but who thinks we should drill for oil/natural gas? To me (Actually in fact too), our country is being crippled by gas prices. As gas goes up, everything goes up with it! How do you think the food gets to stores for you to buy? Gas, man. When gas goes up, the cost of most other things rises, too. It's a horrible chain reaction. It's pillaging and raping the economy.

Yeah, damn Democrats caused these gas prices. We ought just take 'em all out and shoot 'em. I totally hear you, Cody. Obama will probably cause 20 dollar gas! We'll all be breakin' rocks in the hot sun. Those of us with enough gonads to resist will find ourselves in Democrat Re-education camps. There will be a giant screen TV with Hillary or some other feminazi constantly berating us. I suspect that they will castrate us, too. Jesse Jackson's already talking about it, so you know it's coming. Of course they will take our guns away. That's the first thing they do. Either that or there will be enough soy in the drinking water to make us all gay.

Lol, well to be honest I agree with that (Well, not the completely ridiculous thing like the soy water and others ect.). I just can't tell if your being sarcastic totally or not. If you aren't, then AMEN BROTHER!

These days there isn't that big of a difference between democrats and communists.

Edited by Cody, 27 July 2008 - 07:10 AM.

[Cody]

as it stands now there is a stagflation and I don't believe any presidential candidate is going to change that by using conventional financial tools. No matter how many times the Fed changes the fed funds rate or cuts the interest rate, investors will not respond well to increasing fuel costs and food costs

Food costs isn't the only thing that will rise, Niner. Basically everything we buy is gonna rise.

[Cody]

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like America is going a little socialist on us? What do you guys think?

Are you saying thats bad? Your not hoping that the schism between rich and poor gets bigger are you?

No, that's not what I said at all, Eric. If you're pro communist, that's fine. I believe a little differently. I'm sure you've heard the "incentive" agrument. Here's how it goes in commie town.

Good ole' Bob works so hard. He sometimes makes 8, even 9 shirts a day in the sweat shop! Bob's friend Joe on the other hand is a lazy man. All he makes is 1, or 2 shirts a day. Bob begins to wonder why he should work so hard if he'll still get paid the same as his lazy friend Joe. A year later, Bob's making 5 shirts.. then another six months goes by and he's making 4.. then another year passes and hes making 1, or 2 shirts a day in the sweat shop just like his lazy friend Joe. (I made that little bit up myself lol)

That's why communism doesn't work. There's no incentive to do better.

Now I know that capitalism can seem unfair, too. Picture a young mother living in a cramped 1 bedroom house with 3 children to feed. There are people even less fortunate than this and they find a way to rise above it and follow their dreams. That's what capitalism has that communism could never share. Dreams. Besides, the woman can do the food stamps thing. Which is one piece of communism that needed to be adopted because of families that needed to be fed.

Edited by Cody, 27 July 2008 - 07:01 AM.

[Connor MacLeod]

Agreed. Not only that though. With Obama in office, say hello to 12 dollar gas my friend! I support the war, too. Theres more who support the war than tv makes it seem. Most stations are run by democrats. Therefore, bias runs rampant.

This is kinda random, but who thinks we should drill for oil/natural gas? To me (Actually in fact too), our country is being crippled by gas prices. As gas goes up, everything goes up with it! How do you think the food gets to stores for you to buy? Gas, man. When gas goes up, the cost of most other things rises, too. It's a horrible chain reaction. It's pillaging and raping the economy.

We should be drilling everywhere we can starting yesterday. Yes we can!

[Cody]

Agreed. Not only that though. With Obama in office, say hello to 12 dollar gas my friend! I support the war, too. Theres more who support the war than tv makes it seem. Most stations are run by democrats. Therefore, bias runs rampant.

This is kinda random, but who thinks we should drill for oil/natural gas? To me (Actually in fact too), our country is being crippled by gas prices. As gas goes up, everything goes up with it! How do you think the food gets to stores for you to buy? Gas, man. When gas goes up, the cost of most other things rises, too. It's a horrible chain reaction. It's pillaging and raping the economy.

We should be drilling everywhere we can starting yesterday. Yes we can!

Yes! We need that transition over to a different more reliable fuel soucre.

[niner]

Agreed. Not only that though. With Obama in office, say hello to 12 dollar gas my friend! I support the war, too. Theres more who support the war than tv makes it seem. Most stations are run by democrats. Therefore, bias runs rampant.

This is kinda random, but who thinks we should drill for oil/natural gas? To me (Actually in fact too), our country is being crippled by gas prices. As gas goes up, everything goes up with it! How do you think the food gets to stores for you to buy? Gas, man. When gas goes up, the cost of most other things rises, too. It's a horrible chain reaction. It's pillaging and raping the economy.

Yeah, damn Democrats caused these gas prices. We ought just take 'em all out and shoot 'em. I totally hear you, Cody. Obama will probably cause 20 dollar gas! We'll all be breakin' rocks in the hot sun. Those of us with enough gonads to resist will find ourselves in Democrat Re-education camps. There will be a giant screen TV with Hillary or some other feminazi constantly berating us. I suspect that they will castrate us, too. Jesse Jackson's already talking about it, so you know it's coming. Of course they will take our guns away. That's the first thing they do. Either that or there will be enough soy in the drinking water to make us all gay.

Lol, well to be honest I agree with that. I just can't tell if your bring sarcastic or not. If you aren't, then AMEN BROTHER!

Well Cody, I was being sarcastic, but I'll stop that, since it's the wrong approach. This is a reality-based forum, so let's get reality based. What exactly do you mean by "communist"? Are you talking about state ownership of the means of production? That's not happening here. Are you talking about "redistribution of wealth"? At the moment we have the largest gap between the rich and the rest of us since shortly before the crash of '29. The wealthy in America enjoy the lowest tax rates in the developed world. In the late 40's/early 50's, the McCarthy era, America was probably about as "anti-communist" as a country could be. Yet at that time, the wealthy were taxed heavily and the middle class had a tremendously good deal. Or are you talking about an increase in totalitarianism? You might be on to something there; there has been a serious erosion in civil liberties since Bush/Cheney arrived. With American citizens being spied on without a warrant, locked up without charge, and being subjected to search and seizure in the name of "security", we do seem to live in a more totalitarian world. That's not communism, though. Communism is an economic system.

These days there isn't that big of a difference between democrats and communists.

How do you figure? Social Security was a Democratic initiative, but it wasn't done recently (these days). It started before WWII. It is a very socialist program. People like me pay more into it than we get back, and people like, oh... my father in-law payed little, but are getting a lot back. Would you propose that we get rid of Social Security? You might have to fight your parents on that; it's pretty popular. Medicare is socialist. Guys like me pay for it, and people like, I dunno, your grandparents? get healthcare. Bush just created the biggest expansion of Government in history with the Medicare Drug Benefit. That's another socialist program. But Bush is a Republican, not a Democrat. The last Democrat in the White House dismantled Welfare, and didn't create any new social programs. So looking at the facts, it might be more accurate to say that the Republicans are "Socialists", and the Democrats are the Free-Marketeers.

[niner]

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like America is going a little socialist on us? What do you guys think?

Are you saying thats bad? Your not hoping that the schism between rich and poor gets bigger are you?

No, that's not what I said at all, Eric. If you're pro communist, that's fine. I believe a little differently. I'm sure you've heard the "incentive" agrument. Here's how it goes in commie town.

Good ole' Bob works so hard. He sometimes makes 8, even 9 shirts a day in the sweat shop! Bob's friend Joe on the other hand is a lazy man. All he makes is 1, or 2 shirts a day. Bob begins to wonder why he should work so hard if he'll still get paid the same as his lazy friend Joe. A year later, Bob's making 5 shirts.. then another six months goes by and he's making 4.. then another year passes and hes making 1, or 2 shirts a day in the sweat shop just like his lazy friend Joe. (I made that little bit up myself lol)

That's why communism doesn't work. There's no incentive to do better.

Now I know that capitalism can seem unfair, too. Picture a young mother living in a cramped 1 bedroom house with 3 children to feed. There are people even less fortunate than this and they find a way to rise above it and follow their dreams. That's what capitalism has that communism could never share. Dreams. Besides, the woman can do the food stamps thing. Which is one piece of communism that needed to be adopted because of families that needed to be fed.

And that's why communism is in the dustbin of history. Communism is dead. We don't have that system here in America. Communism failed because it ignores fundamental aspects of human motivation. There is no danger of America adopting Communism.

You might want to ask yourself: What is the motivation of the people who are telling me that America is going Communist? What laws do they want to see changed. How would those changes affect them? I find that when you look behind this sort of propaganda, you usually find someone who has a plan to make some money from somewhere.

[brokenportal]

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like America is going a little socialist on us? What do you guys think?

Are you saying thats bad? Your not hoping that the schism between rich and poor gets bigger are you?

No, that's not what I said at all, Eric. If you're pro communist, that's fine. I believe a little differently. I'm sure you've heard the "incentive" agrument. Here's how it goes in commie town.

Good ole' Bob works so hard. He sometimes makes 8, even 9 shirts a day in the sweat shop! Bob's friend Joe on the other hand is a lazy man. All he makes is 1, or 2 shirts a day. Bob begins to wonder why he should work so hard if he'll still get paid the same as his lazy friend Joe. A year later, Bob's making 5 shirts.. then another six months goes by and he's making 4.. then another year passes and hes making 1, or 2 shirts a day in the sweat shop just like his lazy friend Joe. (I made that little bit up myself lol)

That's why communism doesn't work. There's no incentive to do better.

Now I know that capitalism can seem unfair, too. Picture a young mother living in a cramped 1 bedroom house with 3 children to feed. There are people even less fortunate than this and they find a way to rise above it and follow their dreams. That's what capitalism has that communism could never share. Dreams. Besides, the woman can do the food stamps thing. Which is one piece of communism that needed to be adopted because of families that needed to be fed.

No, not communism, but some form of socialism. Because this is what happens in Capitalism, bob makes ten shirts and tom makes ten shirts, but bob comes about an inheritence or gets a promotion because he goes fishing with his boss and soon bob buys the company and sits at home and makes zero shirts while tom has to bust ass to make 20 or he'll lose his job. Not all the bobs are like that, some of the bobs work their ass off, but enough of them dont that it makes it as bad as if it were the communist dillemma.

You can tell all the people that have been born, struggled and died already near the bottom that they had the chance to work their way up to the top, you really think everybody has that chance? You reeeaalllly think that? Or they could just make it a more fair socialistic society, which I think they are leaning toward, like you say. Im not saying that most rich people are at fault at all, its the structures fault, but minumum wage isnt stuck at a fixed price because of the cost of running the companies, its fixed in direct proportion to the increase in luxuries that the rich think they need.

If you took just like 20 percent of all frivilous luxury industry and converted it to stuff everyday people need then surplus would go up, price would go down, everybody would have fair jobs and everybody would be richer for it. It would basically be to simplify it: taking just 20 percent of the luxury yachts and turning them into new shoes more than once every two years and computer updates more than once a year and tires for cars, for the poor and lower middle class. There just needs to be some sense of balance, some sense of check and balance, not communism, but a workable form of socialism.

[mike250]

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like America is going a little socialist on us? What do you guys think?

Are you saying thats bad? Your not hoping that the schism between rich and poor gets bigger are you?

No, that's not what I said at all, Eric. If you're pro communist, that's fine. I believe a little differently. I'm sure you've heard the "incentive" agrument. Here's how it goes in commie town.

Good ole' Bob works so hard. He sometimes makes 8, even 9 shirts a day in the sweat shop! Bob's friend Joe on the other hand is a lazy man. All he makes is 1, or 2 shirts a day. Bob begins to wonder why he should work so hard if he'll still get paid the same as his lazy friend Joe. A year later, Bob's making 5 shirts.. then another six months goes by and he's making 4.. then another year passes and hes making 1, or 2 shirts a day in the sweat shop just like his lazy friend Joe. (I made that little bit up myself lol)

That's why communism doesn't work. There's no incentive to do better.

Now I know that capitalism can seem unfair, too. Picture a young mother living in a cramped 1 bedroom house with 3 children to feed. There are people even less fortunate than this and they find a way to rise above it and follow their dreams. That's what capitalism has that communism could never share. Dreams. Besides, the woman can do the food stamps thing. Which is one piece of communism that needed to be adopted because of families that needed to be fed.

And that's why communism is in the dustbin of history. Communism is dead. We don't have that system here in America. Communism failed because it ignores fundamental aspects of human motivation. There is no danger of America adopting Communism.

You might want to ask yourself: What is the motivation of the people who are telling me that America is going Communist? What laws do they want to see changed. How would those changes affect them? I find that when you look behind this sort of propaganda, you usually find someone who has a plan to make some money from somewhere.

we used to look up to the USA as a source of freedom, civil liberties and as the land of opportunities. The American spirit of self-reliance and strength. a constitution that protects the people's rights. Unfortunately over the years it has become a big bloated democracy indistinguishable from Europe and is slowly turning into a dictatorship. if there is a new meaning for "communism" then this fits the term quite well.

Edited by mike250, 27 July 2008 - 08:19 AM.

[biknut]

Bush just created the biggest expansion of Government in history with the Medicare Drug Benefit. That's another socialist program. But Bush is a Republican, not a Democrat.

The last Democrat in the White House dismantled Welfare, and didn't create any new social programs. So looking at the facts, it might be more accurate to say that the Republicans are "Socialists", and the Democrats are the Free-Marketeers.

niner, you're all for that aren't you. You should give Bush some credit, but you can't, I guess.

You're next statement is very misleading. Welfare reform was a Republican initiative. You know that. Why do you attempt to mislead? I give Clinton credit for doing the right thing and supporting it, but I doubt he would have except for the fact that all the polls showed overwhelming support. Without the Republicans putting the bill before him it would never have happened. Clinton usually followed the polls. That's not leadership. Bush could care less about polls. That's leadership. Doesn't mean he's always right though, but who is?

You come across as very biased against the Republicans. The great things the Democrats did that you mention were all done a long time ago. The leadership of the Democrat party now has a lot different mind set than Democrats back then.

Both party's want to take away our rights.

[Anaxim]

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like America is going a little socialist on us? What do you guys think?

America could do with going a little socialist, if only to make capitalism work better.

[happy]

How can anyone still support this war? Absurdity.

Niner, nod nod nod.

Edited by happy, 27 July 2008 - 04:36 PM.

[Cody]

Agreed. Not only that though. With Obama in office, say hello to 12 dollar gas my friend! I support the war, too. Theres more who support the war than tv makes it seem. Most stations are run by democrats. Therefore, bias runs rampant.

This is kinda random, but who thinks we should drill for oil/natural gas? To me (Actually in fact too), our country is being crippled by gas prices. As gas goes up, everything goes up with it! How do you think the food gets to stores for you to buy? Gas, man. When gas goes up, the cost of most other things rises, too. It's a horrible chain reaction. It's pillaging and raping the economy.

Yeah, damn Democrats caused these gas prices. We ought just take 'em all out and shoot 'em. I totally hear you, Cody. Obama will probably cause 20 dollar gas! We'll all be breakin' rocks in the hot sun. Those of us with enough gonads to resist will find ourselves in Democrat Re-education camps. There will be a giant screen TV with Hillary or some other feminazi constantly berating us. I suspect that they will castrate us, too. Jesse Jackson's already talking about it, so you know it's coming. Of course they will take our guns away. That's the first thing they do. Either that or there will be enough soy in the drinking water to make us all gay.

Lol, well to be honest I agree with that. I just can't tell if your bring sarcastic or not. If you aren't, then AMEN BROTHER!

Well Cody, I was being sarcastic, but I'll stop that, since it's the wrong approach. This is a reality-based forum, so let's get reality based. What exactly do you mean by "communist"? Are you talking about state ownership of the means of production? That's not happening here. Are you talking about "redistribution of wealth"? At the moment we have the largest gap between the rich and the rest of us since shortly before the crash of '29. The wealthy in America enjoy the lowest tax rates in the developed world. In the late 40's/early 50's, the McCarthy era, America was probably about as "anti-communist" as a country could be. Yet at that time, the wealthy were taxed heavily and the middle class had a tremendously good deal. Or are you talking about an increase in totalitarianism? You might be on to something there; there has been a serious erosion in civil liberties since Bush/Cheney arrived. With American citizens being spied on without a warrant, locked up without charge, and being subjected to search and seizure in the name of "security", we do seem to live in a more totalitarian world. That's not communism, though. Communism is an economic system.

It's fine. It was kinda funny. I was just being an oblivious a**hole .

Well, America's going communtist is many different ways, Niner. But the biggest one you said to me that shows the big picture of what I meant by "communist", was the totalitarianism shift. It's so crazy how they're allowed to just listen to our conversations. Now, everytime I hear a click in my friggin' phone I'm like,"Crap, is the government listening or something!?" But I do believe that the totalitarianism is a little piece of communism. Just my opinion. It's actually what I meant when I said communist. Communism isn't just an economic system. It influences EVERYTHING in the country that it's used in. For example, listening in on people's conversations would be a normal thing.

I just don't believe they should be able to listen in on people. Soon, they're gonna start encoaching on rights. They already are. The right to bear arms (The right to arm bears ).

But anyways, I don't believe that they should be able to do that, or search houses in the name of security.

[Cody]

Agreed. Not only that though. With Obama in office, say hello to 12 dollar gas my friend! I support the war, too. Theres more who support the war than tv makes it seem. Most stations are run by democrats. Therefore, bias runs rampant.

This is kinda random, but who thinks we should drill for oil/natural gas? To me (Actually in fact too), our country is being crippled by gas prices. As gas goes up, everything goes up with it! How do you think the food gets to stores for you to buy? Gas, man. When gas goes up, the cost of most other things rises, too. It's a horrible chain reaction. It's pillaging and raping the economy.

Yeah, damn Democrats caused these gas prices. We ought just take 'em all out and shoot 'em. I totally hear you, Cody. Obama will probably cause 20 dollar gas! We'll all be breakin' rocks in the hot sun. Those of us with enough gonads to resist will find ourselves in Democrat Re-education camps. There will be a giant screen TV with Hillary or some other feminazi constantly berating us. I suspect that they will castrate us, too. Jesse Jackson's already talking about it, so you know it's coming. Of course they will take our guns away. That's the first thing they do. Either that or there will be enough soy in the drinking water to make us all gay.

Lol, well to be honest I agree with that. I just can't tell if your bring sarcastic or not. If you aren't, then AMEN BROTHER!

Well Cody, I was being sarcastic, but I'll stop that, since it's the wrong approach. This is a reality-based forum, so let's get reality based. What exactly do you mean by "communist"? Are you talking about state ownership of the means of production? That's not happening here. Are you talking about "redistribution of wealth"? At the moment we have the largest gap between the rich and the rest of us since shortly before the crash of '29. The wealthy in America enjoy the lowest tax rates in the developed world. In the late 40's/early 50's, the McCarthy era, America was probably about as "anti-communist" as a country could be. Yet at that time, the wealthy were taxed heavily and the middle class had a tremendously good deal. Or are you talking about an increase in totalitarianism? You might be on to something there; there has been a serious erosion in civil liberties since Bush/Cheney arrived. With American citizens being spied on without a warrant, locked up without charge, and being subjected to search and seizure in the name of "security", we do seem to live in a more totalitarian world. That's not communism, though. Communism is an economic system.

These days there isn't that big of a difference between democrats and communists.

How do you figure? Social Security was a Democratic initiative, but it wasn't done recently (these days). It started before WWII. It is a very socialist program. People like me pay more into it than we get back, and people like, oh... my father in-law payed little, but are getting a lot back. Would you propose that we get rid of Social Security? You might have to fight your parents on that; it's pretty popular. Medicare is socialist. Guys like me pay for it, and people like, I dunno, your grandparents? get healthcare. Bush just created the biggest expansion of Government in history with the Medicare Drug Benefit. That's another socialist program. But Bush is a Republican, not a Democrat. The last Democrat in the White House dismantled Welfare, and didn't create any new social programs. So looking at the facts, it might be more accurate to say that the Republicans are "Socialists", and the Democrats are the Free-Marketeers.

Well yeah, I actually remember jokingly calling my dad a communist for collecting social(ist lol) security. But like I said in my little communist story, food stamps are a little piece of communism too. But that needed to be adopted for hungry families. Obviously some things are important. Even if communism never existed, something like that would have eventually been created anyways out of necessity.

[Cody]

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like America is going a little socialist on us? What do you guys think?

Are you saying thats bad? Your not hoping that the schism between rich and poor gets bigger are you?

No, that's not what I said at all, Eric. If you're pro communist, that's fine. I believe a little differently. I'm sure you've heard the "incentive" agrument. Here's how it goes in commie town.

Good ole' Bob works so hard. He sometimes makes 8, even 9 shirts a day in the sweat shop! Bob's friend Joe on the other hand is a lazy man. All he makes is 1, or 2 shirts a day. Bob begins to wonder why he should work so hard if he'll still get paid the same as his lazy friend Joe. A year later, Bob's making 5 shirts.. then another six months goes by and he's making 4.. then another year passes and hes making 1, or 2 shirts a day in the sweat shop just like his lazy friend Joe. (I made that little bit up myself lol)

That's why communism doesn't work. There's no incentive to do better.

Now I know that capitalism can seem unfair, too. Picture a young mother living in a cramped 1 bedroom house with 3 children to feed. There are people even less fortunate than this and they find a way to rise above it and follow their dreams. That's what capitalism has that communism could never share. Dreams. Besides, the woman can do the food stamps thing. Which is one piece of communism that needed to be adopted because of families that needed to be fed.

No, not communism, but some form of socialism. Because this is what happens in Capitalism, bob makes ten shirts and tom makes ten shirts, but bob comes about an inheritence or gets a promotion because he goes fishing with his boss and soon bob buys the company and sits at home and makes zero shirts while tom has to bust ass to make 20 or he'll lose his job. Not all the bobs are like that, some of the bobs work their ass off, but enough of them dont that it makes it as bad as if it were the communist dillemma.

You can tell all the people that have been born, struggled and died already near the bottom that they had the chance to work their way up to the top, you really think everybody has that chance? You reeeaalllly think that? Or they could just make it a more fair socialistic society, which I think they are leaning toward, like you say. Im not saying that most rich people are at fault at all, its the structures fault, but minumum wage isnt stuck at a fixed price because of the cost of running the companies, its fixed in direct proportion to the increase in luxuries that the rich think they need.

If you took just like 20 percent of all frivilous luxury industry and converted it to stuff everyday people need then surplus would go up, price would go down, everybody would have fair jobs and everybody would be richer for it. It would basically be to simplify it: taking just 20 percent of the luxury yachts and turning them into new shoes more than once every two years and computer updates more than once a year and tires for cars, for the poor and lower middle class. There just needs to be some sense of balance, some sense of check and balance, not communism, but a workable form of socialism.

Yeah, but guess what? The Bob in capitalism can invest in stocks and become rich beyond all belief. The Bob in capitalism can follow his dream of opening up a tea shop. The Bob in capitalism can do anything he wants if he keeps at it. YES, I do believe EVERYONE has a chance to get to the top (or at least middle. Which is great. It's where I am). Because I've seen it first hand a few times. Communism does not work. I don't wy anyone is even defending. All they do is fold in on themselves. By the way, the chance of getting an inhertince is pretty low lol. The point is, in capitalism, things work out. You can even do what you want in life.

To be honest, we could go on arguing for years. No one would win. But wait.. all we have to do is look at other communist countries! Oh yeah! What happens to them?


By the way, to me, Socialism is communism. It really is pretty much.

Edited by Cody, 27 July 2008 - 08:56 PM.