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Why 7000+ imminst users but only 8x actively folding?


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#1 kismet

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 03:29 PM


It sure must be somehow possible to recruit more imminst members to our folding team. I guess most don't even know about folding (even though it is featured on the mainpage..)

I am just wondering if the admins considered sending out an e-mail/pm to all members as a kind of "reminder" and/or feature the project during the registration process visible to all new members.

It would be pretty cool and unique if the "longevity meme" conquered a Top50 or even Top20 spot, among all those teams run by renowned hardware web sites.

#2 Mind

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 03:34 PM

We are constantly working on getting more folders (Imminst members or not). There are multitude of reasons why some people might not be folding, but as the F@H prize and longevity meme team gain steam I think a lot more Imminst members will join in.

I have sent out both mass PMs and mass emails about the subject.

If you have any recruitment ideas, please feel free to share them here.

#3 chungenhung

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 03:42 PM

I totally agree. I guess the majority of the "folders" have extensive computing hardware knowledge, and that is why they fold.
The instructions from Stanford is simply poor, and most users won't even know how to set up the regular clients, not to mention SMP or GPU clients.
It is sad that only 8 users are active folders, if all members of imminst forum would fold, how much closer are we to being immortal??

#4 dnamechanic

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 04:10 PM

I totally agree.

I agree with previous comments also.

I guess the majority of the "folders" have extensive computing hardware knowledge, and that is why they fold.

I think this is a true statement.

But most people have capability to expand their horizons.

To help introduce the folding-hardware experts to Life-Extension, maybe it would be good to have something in common with them.

The instructions from Stanford is simply poor, and most users won't even know how to set up the regular clients, not to mention SMP or GPU clients.

If potential folders would inquire, we could help them in this aspect.

If anyone reading this would like to know how to start, just post here or somewhere.

Speaking for myself, if you would like to have help to get started via telephone (in United States, for CPU folding), that can also be arranged.

Likely, others could help with GPU and PS3 folding.

It is sad that only 8 users are active folders,

I think the original poster meant in the 80's for the number of active folders participating (the x for a variable).


if all members of imminst forum would fold, how much closer are we to being immortal??


That cannot be answered definitively. But the answer most certainly is: closer than we are now.

There are a good number of ImmInst members that have folded in the past (part of the 225 plus non-active folders on the team). The question arises "Why did they quit?" Part of the reason is that they may not have gotten enough feedback. Only fairly recently has there been a Forum for the TLM team.

Possibly there is some of the sentiment, typified by the attitudes portrayed in the following:

"I've already folded, aren't we done yet?"
"It's too much trouble"
"My computer is not fast"
"My computer locked up"
"The singularity is near".
"What's the next big thing?"

Hopefully, only a few think like this, but Folding is like everything else in life. If it were easy, likely it would have already been done.

Accomplishing things takes dedication and continual effort, usually over long periods of time.

Edited by dnamechanic, 07 August 2008 - 05:44 PM.


#5 kismet

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 06:46 PM

Yeah, indeed installing the software ist not trivial at all. It took me a while.. the BOINC platform is definitely more user friendly. Nonetheless it is impressive that folding achieved over 1 PetaFLOPS, even though apparently mainly "tech-geeks" fold.

Still it is quite strange that out of 7000 registered users only 1-2% fold actively. I don't know how often imminst members may be conntacted, but when the competition for the F@H prize restarts might be the best time to recruit new folders via pm/e-mail.

Even though the regional forums may not be as well-frequented as the main forums one could try to recruit some members there (the "language barrier" or simple laziness may prevent some users from reading the folding section). I'm going to open a thread in the German section later and ask about their opinion on F@H.

I don't know whether the board-software supports "announcements" (a kind of global, pinned thread visible on every sub-forum), which would be great for temporary announcements (obviously!) e.g. when the F@H competition restarts.

#6 sentinel

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 02:18 PM

2 main things:

I think we should have a Sticky with "How to download and install Folding@Home" at the top of this forum. I downloaded and installed incorrectly so didn't get up and running for some time and felt like just forgetting it. Only after searching around the FaH site (which also doesn't have a good sticky) did I get to the bottom of it. Once you know it's very straight forward but if you know anything about computers like me you just steam in, download to desk top or something else that will cock up the install (like not re-booting).

The other is I double checked my PMs and I have never received any about FaH, except a welcome from Mind :) but that is only after stumbling across a thread and finally deciding to find out what it was (I had previously thought it was a forum for Research types to discuss bio-chemistry or similar).

I've jumped up from 305 to 180 in the rankings in the 1 week I've been on, so obviously a lot of people aren't actively involved but I'm sure loads like me are put off by the lack of set-up info or don't even know it's going on.

Sentinel

#7 quintin3265

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 03:39 PM

Nobody here has considered perhaps the most obvious answer: the cost. Folding is not free, and the economy is poor. I lost $12,000 in stocks in just the past four months, inflation is at 10%, and the price when I turn on the heat in the house for September will be astronomically higher than heating costs were in May. In addition to selling one of those computers and adopting unrelated cost-saving measures, I decided that I will be cutting back my folding for the next quarter because the prize money is not nearly enough to cover the cost of the power.

A PS3 costs about $13/month to run, and I'm currently running two of them, along with five computers, and have run more in the past. It will cost almost $200 for these three months to contribute this quarter, while I'll only win $15-$40 at this rate.

I'm sure others have made a similar decision as I have. When the economy improves, I bet that contributions to the team will again increase.

Edited by quintin3265, 08 August 2008 - 03:40 PM.


#8 lunarsolarpower

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 05:41 PM

There also seems to be no direct incentive as far as I'm aware for the contributor without a maxed out array of machines. Is there some sort of a "randomly" awarded prize available to those who don't make it into the top 10? Awarding the top contributors seems important to encouraging people running racks of machinery but it doesn't do much for the average Joe with 1 desktop or laptop.

#9 Heliotrope

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 05:55 PM

agree with lunarsolar, my laptop was probably under tremendous strain with FAH taking 100% CPU, and even after i lowered it. actually made my computer crash. A virus or something probably got in my computer system in the meantime and erased my harddrive. good thing i had the foresight to save some important documents in a flash drive so when my disks were cleared i didn't lose everything. I only run FAH on public computers right now and a little apprehensive to download the client to this laptop again, besides, it takes too many days to complete 1 WU on my machine. I'll help out the research whenever i can

Edited by HYP86, 08 August 2008 - 05:56 PM.


#10 Matthias

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 07:47 PM

Is there some sort of a "randomly" awarded prize available to those who don't make it into the top 10?

not yet, but maybe soon: link

#11 kismet

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 08:53 PM

There also seems to be no direct incentive as far as I'm aware for the contributor without a maxed out array of machines. Is there some sort of a "randomly" awarded prize available to those who don't make it into the top 10? Awarding the top contributors seems important to encouraging people running racks of machinery but it doesn't do much for the average Joe with 1 desktop or laptop.

Yes, I think the idea behind F@H is that even the smallest contribution to folding is a good contribution as long as it is regular.

#12 dnamechanic

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 09:58 PM

There also seems to be no direct incentive as far as I'm aware for the contributor without a maxed out array of machines. Is there some sort of a "randomly" awarded prize available to those who don't make it into the top 10?

There is the incentive of: doing something worthwhile to advance research.

Yes, I think the idea behind F@H is that even the smallest contribution to folding is a good contribution as long as it is regular.

Yes, well said kismet.

Contribute now, with what you have now.

This is not exactly a caucus-race.

Even if it were, the running must at least commence in order to win .

First it marked out a race-course, in a sort of circle, (`the exact shape doesn't matter,' it said,) and then all the party were placed along the course, here and there. There was no `One, two, three, and away,' but they began running when they liked, and left off when they liked, so that it was not easy to know when the race was over. However, when they had been running half an hour or so, and were quite dry again, the Dodo suddenly called out `The race is over!' and they all crowded round it, panting, and asking, `But who has won?'...

...At last the Dodo said, `everybody has won, and all must have prizes.'

From: Alice's Adventures in Wonderland

Thanks to all for comments so far in this thread.

Your comments provide insight that may help in encouraging folders. May also help improve marketing efforts :)

Edited by dnamechanic, 08 August 2008 - 10:32 PM.


#13 Athanasios

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 11:34 PM

Costs of running the machine you would have on anyway is pretty low. As for starting a mini-server farm, that is another matter. The prize is great for getting big contributors and good for higher visibility to the meme. These are all incentives to get those not within the community to join in. I would have hoped that within the community that helping research was enough of a reward.

#14 kismet

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 12:08 AM

Costs of running the machine you would have on anyway is pretty low. As for starting a mini-server farm, that is another matter. The prize is great for getting big contributors and good for higher visibility to the meme. These are all incentives to get those not within the community to join in. I would have hoped that within the community that helping research was enough of a reward.

Apparently the cost of 24/7 folding on a high-end machine is not negligible. However, "12/6 folding" or having it run as a screensaver for some hours per day is quite cheap, even in Europe where energy is really expensive. The costs are more of a donation anyway. Costs can be further reduced by buying the right hardware (best bang for the buck CPU/GPU, efficient PSU) and intelligent overclocking and/or undervolting. We'd just need to let our members know.

I am not sure whether to reiterate my ideas in the "Spreading the meme, Some untapped resources"-thread or is it enough to mention them here, anyway some of them:
We definitely need a pinned thread for beginners with an installation guide and maybe an FAQ.
I've had an idea for some other prizes for the next folding competition: Imminst-membership for some weeks or months for top contributors (or the equivalent of that in money for those who are already (lifetime-) members?) if it is feasible of course. Free supplements or gift coupons for supps, maybe doable by Anthony_Loera (?) or if you contacted lef or another company of that kind? I guess E-books/scientific papers may also be interesting prizes for transhumanists.
Those prizes would cost much less than their equivalent in $ -> more but better prizes -> more of an incentive to join the folding team.

Edited by kismet, 09 August 2008 - 12:08 AM.


#15 quintin3265

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 02:20 PM

Costs of running the machine you would have on anyway is pretty low. As for starting a mini-server farm, that is another matter. The prize is great for getting big contributors and good for higher visibility to the meme. These are all incentives to get those not within the community to join in. I would have hoped that within the community that helping research was enough of a reward.

Apparently the cost of 24/7 folding on a high-end machine is not negligible. However, "12/6 folding" or having it run as a screensaver for some hours per day is quite cheap, even in Europe where energy is really expensive. The costs are more of a donation anyway. Costs can be further reduced by buying the right hardware (best bang for the buck CPU/GPU, efficient PSU) and intelligent overclocking and/or undervolting. We'd just need to let our members know.

I am not sure whether to reiterate my ideas in the "Spreading the meme, Some untapped resources"-thread or is it enough to mention them here, anyway some of them:
We definitely need a pinned thread for beginners with an installation guide and maybe an FAQ.
I've had an idea for some other prizes for the next folding competition: Imminst-membership for some weeks or months for top contributors (or the equivalent of that in money for those who are already (lifetime-) members?) if it is feasible of course. Free supplements or gift coupons for supps, maybe doable by Anthony_Loera (?) or if you contacted lef or another company of that kind? I guess E-books/scientific papers may also be interesting prizes for transhumanists.
Those prizes would cost much less than their equivalent in $ -> more but better prizes -> more of an incentive to join the folding team.


Well, I do support the goals of the research and am willing to absorb some of the cost, and I had no problem leaving computers on to fold last year. But now that the stock market has tumbled so much, it's difficult to justify the cost of folding 24/7 because the top winners will win so much more. As was suggested above, I think I'll still leave Folding@Home installed on the computers, just not leave them on during the weekdays and overnight, when nobody would be using them for any other purpose.

I don't think that the prize is the answer to increasing participation. It does result in an initial peak of interest, but then people realize that they will never be able to compete with the top folders, who will win exponentially huge prizes. The current prize rewards people who have the most resources to begin with, when we really should be paying those who aren't as wealthy and who could use the funds to support their one or two machines' power and maintenance requirements.

Has anyone considered dividing the money based on points earned? Simply divide the total number of points from all contestants at the end of the period by the number of dollars available for prizes, and determine a cost-per-point. Then, pay people based on the amount of research they have performed.

For example, let's say that there were 1,000,000 points of research performed, and there is $1,000 available. Thus, the cost per point turns out to be $0.001 (1,000,000/1,000), and someone who has contributed 2500 points over the quarter would earn $2.50 in prize money ($0.001 * 2500). To simplify distribution, set a minimum amount of money that people need to achieve in order to be paid (such as $2 or $3), but keep that amount low enough to encourage small contributions. Setting a minimum limit also reduces the amount of prize money that is eaten up by PayPal in transaction fees.

The current system is exponential - the grand prize is huge, while the lower prizes are small, and that deters small contributors. Rewarding people with a linear scheme would increase participation while still defraying the costs of the largest contributors. Everyone would be assured a reward if they continue to contribute, and fewer people would give up because they know they won't win anything.

#16 Mind

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 05:55 PM

We are going to institute a random-picked reward (probably 2) in the 3rd quarter for people who do not finish in the top 12.

Other prizes such as Imminst membership or gift certificates to supplement suppliers are nice ideas that we can look into as well.

#17 Heliotrope

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 11:34 PM

what kismet described is good Q. 8000+ users but only ~90 actively folding now

#18 DukeNukem

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 12:50 AM

This is the first time I've clicked on any thread having to do with F@H. I read through the thread, and I have no idea what this is about, so I went to the home page and clicked on this. Guess what... I still have no clue what F@H or "folding" means. I'm going to take a wild guess with protein folding, but the word "folding" is my only clue. I can only imagine that other people are as completely in the dark as me, and therefore move quickly to things that may hold their interest longer than 5 seconds.

Epic failure of communication.

#19 Shepard

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 01:47 AM

You left the "constructive" part out of constructive criticism.

#20 eternaltraveler

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 01:53 AM

there are not 8000+ users. There are 8000+ accounts that have ever been created, even if the person that created the account only used it for 5 minutes.

#21 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 01:59 AM

Question:

Why 7000+ imminst users but only 8x actively folding?


Answer:

Apparently the cost of 24/7 folding on a high-end machine is not negligible.

:)

#22 DukeNukem

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 02:43 AM

You left the "constructive" part out of constructive criticism.

I was going to get to that once I figured out what it was I needed to be constructing. Still no clue.

#23 kismet

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 01:05 PM

Question:

Why 7000+ imminst users but only 8x actively folding?


Answer:

Apparently the cost of 24/7 folding on a high-end machine is not negligible.

:)

You do know only white and wealthy males support life extension, so this shouldn't be a problem! Haha, I hope our demographics will change for the better.
On topic, Duke is right, we should not assume "everyone knows what folding at home is"...

#24 Mind

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 01:57 PM

Well Duke, when someone first mentioned folding@home to me, it only took me about 1 minute to figure out the basics. I went to google and type in folding@home and that immediately took me here: http://folding.stanford.edu/

where the first couple sentences are:

What is protein folding and how is folding linked to disease?
Proteins are biology's workhorses -- its "nanomachines." Before proteins can carry out these important functions, they assemble themselves, or "fold." The process of protein folding, while critical and fundamental to virtually all of biology, in many ways remains a mystery.

Moreover, when proteins do not fold correctly (i.e. "misfold"), there can be serious consequences, including many well known diseases, such as Alzheimer's, Mad Cow (BSE), CJD, ALS, Huntington's, Parkinson's disease, and many Cancers and cancer-related syndromes.

You can help by simply running a piece of software.
Folding@home is a distributed computing project -- people from throughout the world download and run software to band together to make one of the largest supercomputers in the world. Every computer takes the project closer to our goals. Folding@home uses novel computational methods coupled to distributed computing, to simulate problems millions of times more challenging than previously achieved.


OK, so now I think this is pretty cool so I think how do I install this thing. The Stanford site has instructions. We also have a pinned topic How to install.

It does not take a lot of effort to or time to at least scratch the surface as to what it is all about. Most people around here know about the F@H prize as well, although, that could be displayed more prominently in the forums. There is a banner in a couple of the forums that says "Join the Team, Cure Disease, Win Money"(see here). The banner links to this page http://www.imminst.org/fah which explains the prize. Featured articles have been on the front page all year long. Details and invitations have also gone out in mass PMs and mass emails. The Imminst folding forum also has numerous topics on all aspects of folding and the F@H prize. Our team members are always giving out advice on how to get the most out of your computer and providing technical assistance.

It has been a concerted effort and it has reached most ACTIVE Imminst members. Now we need to take it to the next level and we could probably use some new outreach strategies. One strategy is to increase the prize money. We will have more meetings as the 2nd year of the competition approaches (April 1st) to see if we can get the team into the top 50 before the end of 2009.

#25 DukeNukem

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 04:25 PM

Well Duke, when someone first mentioned folding@home to me, it only took me about 1 minute to figure out the basics. I went to google and type in folding@home and that immediately took me here: http://folding.stanford.edu/

This is a mind-boggling naive approach.

If you expect for people to go through all of this trouble then it should be no surprise when it fails. I mean, my god, why not at least include a few links in that front page article pointing people to where they can get additional information? Why not at least devote one paragraph to a summary explanation, so that people don't just give up right then and there?

Little blunders like this go a long way toward undermining an otherwise valiant effort.

#26 kismet

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 05:27 PM

Well Duke, when someone first mentioned folding@home to me, it only took me about 1 minute to figure out the basics. I went to google and type in folding@home and that immediately took me here: http://folding.stanford.edu/

This is a mind-boggling naive approach.

Yeah, it reminds me of the name-change discussion of our "longevity meme" folding team, while certain people argue that the missing ".org" does no harm, because interested people can look it up on google, I'm convinced every such barrier is one barrier too much and does at least some harm. It can scare away the lazy users, which is a lot.

I think the fah prize page could stand at least one sentence describing what FAH does. Why not tell people it's about proteins, their structure and disease?

Maybe we should mention the extremefolding stats somwhere too, many people I talk to are upset over the constant downtimes of the stanford stats (they are always down when an upgrade is in progress IIRC) and do not even know alternative stats exist!

Edited by kismet, 25 January 2009 - 05:28 PM.


#27 DukeNukem

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 05:45 PM

Well Duke, when someone first mentioned folding@home to me, it only took me about 1 minute to figure out the basics. I went to google and type in folding@home and that immediately took me here: http://folding.stanford.edu/

This is a mind-boggling naive approach.

Yeah, it reminds me of the name-change discussion of our "longevity meme" folding team, while certain people argue that the missing ".org" does no harm, because interested people can look it up on google, I'm convinced every such barrier is one barrier too much and does at least some harm. It can scare away the lazy users, which is a lot.

I think the fah prize page could stand at least one sentence describing what FAH does. Why not tell people it's about proteins, their structure and disease?

Maybe we should mention the extremefolding stats somwhere too, many people I talk to are upset over the constant downtimes of the stanford stats (they are always down when an upgrade is in progress IIRC) and do not even know alternative stats exist!

It's a simple matter of answering the basic journalistic questions: What? Why? How? When? Where? Also, what's in it for me? Humans, as much as anything, are driven by self-interest. Address a person's personal need, and you'll have a far better chance to succeed.

Edited by DukeNukem, 25 January 2009 - 05:46 PM.


#28 Mind

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 07:18 PM

Ok, did you even take a look at the banner? When advertising the F@H prize people said keep it simple. So I made the banner that says "Join the team, cure disease, win money". (see here)

Got a better idea. Let me here it.

Ok, from this point all it takes is one click. Is that too much work. One click. If you know how to magically allow people to do anything with their computer or on the internet without clicking their mouse let me know.

When they click on the banner. Remember just one click. One click. The first paragraph is:

The Longevity Meme has teamed up with the Immortality Institute and the Life Extension Foundation to offer a quarterly prize to people who contribute to the Stanford Folding@home distributing computing project – aimed at curing disease through understanding the basics of protein folding.


No big science terms. Simple and to the point. All the basic details in ONE SENTENCE. If you can make it more simple, well then write it down.

Following that sentence are the details on downloading and running the folding@home program. in a 1, 2, 3, step process. Stanford is helping out with this by trying to get the program pre-installed on GPUs, PS3s, and other computing platforms. That way all the folders have to do is click yes when prompted "Do you want to run folding at home and help cure disease?". We aren't there yet, so there will be some need for people at the present to actually complete a few steps. It is a barrier, but folding@home is still the biggest supercomputer in the world, and the TLM team (ours) has increased its production by 1,300% in the last 9 months.

Every quarter of the competition, a new front page article goes up with all the pertinent info (these things used to be more long and detailed, but everyone kept saying keep it simple, keep it simple, now apparently we need big long explanations of molecular dynamics, AGEs, protein folding, distributed computing, before anyone will sign up). This one has a New's Years spin because the 4th quarter of the competition began on Jan 1.

Making your New Years Resolutions?

1. Fold
2. Fold
3. Live

Everyone wins when you use your idle computer time for folding@home, even you! Register for the F@H prize and you could win big prize money, all the while helping to find cures for some of life’s most devastating diseases.

Official Rules Here

Register Here (team number 32461)

Get help Here and Here


Keeping it simple, letting everyone know that this is aimed at curing diseases. All the "Here" words are links in the article.

Edited by Mind, 25 January 2009 - 07:26 PM.


#29 Mind

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 07:22 PM

As far as putting links to the EOC stats page. Good idea. I use EOC all the time.

#30 kismet

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 07:46 PM

As far as putting links to the EOC stats page. Good idea. I use EOC all the time.

Two issues: the page we are talking about is down (I hope it will be up soon and stay at the same URL) and did it always say "– aimed at curing disease through understanding the basics of protein folding." or did you just add that?
If it did then I missed it somehow, my bad.




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