20 replies to this topic

[OneScrewLoose]

I was wondering if these need to be cycled over long periods, say 5 weeks on and two weeks off, or can I do it in a week? As in, 5 days on and two days off?

[zoolander]

are you suggesting that you do 5 weeks on and two weeks off in one week? Could work.......

[bran319]

are you suggesting that you do 5 weeks on and two weeks off in one week? Could work.......

Reading Comprehension?

The question he asking is pretty clear, and yes, either plan would work well. I choose the former with Rho, usually doing a 3 week on 1 week off or 6/2 cycle since it works so well. Try either one and see what works for you. Good luck.

Brandon

[zoolander]

You get used to my sly remarks after a while bran319.

I recommend a 5 days on and two days off/week routine and then 2-4 weeks off every three months. This should be done with compounds that lack long term studies using humans to minimize a possible negative outcome that could come from chronic intake. This method should be used especially with receptor mediated processes (up or down regulation of either neurotransmitters or receptor binding).

Brandon can you please explain the rationale behind your suggestion?

[bran319]

I didn't realize you were so sly, my apologies.

My rational is the same as yours. This is from my personal experience with both herbs and from literature on Rhodiola Rosea that showed a loss of effect after 6 weeks of continuous use.

"The decrease in physical and mental performance of physicians on prolonged night call is well known. Low dose (170 mg/day) R. rosea extract was given to 56 young, healthy physicians on night call.18 The effect was measured as total mental performance calculated as "Fatigue Index." The tests reflected an overall level of mental fatigue involving complex cognitive functions, such as associative thinking, short-term memory, calculation, concentration, and speed of audio-visual perception. These parameters were tested before and after night duty during three periods of two weeks each in a double-blind crossover trial. A statistically significant improvement in mental performance tests was observed in the treatment group (R. rosea) during the first two-week period.However, at 6 weeks the effect appeared to be lost. No side effects were reported. These results suggest that R. rosea extract can reduce fatigue under certain stressful conditions for some period of time. Possible reasons for the loss of efficacy over time may be the low dose used, the crossover design, or the overall length of night duty with increased fatigue by weeks 5 and 6.


http://content.herba...view.asp?a=2333

[luv2increase]

Just do low dose of both of them for an indefinite period of time. They have differenct machanisms of action and produce differenct effects. Get the best of both worlds! Just stick with a dosage plan like 500mg Ashwagandha in the morning or evening and 500mg of rhodiola at the opposite time of day of the ashwagandha. This will keep you motivated, calm, and collected throughout the entire day. Throw in bacopa, and you'd have a super adaptogen stack. Just take each on their own 4-5 hours apart from each other on an empty stomach.

[edward]

I don't see the need for cycling many things, just take a complete supplement holiday once a week and in general you are good. Now i am sure there is some optimal schedule especially for hormetic vs. non hormetic acting supplements yet the details still allude me as there is no hard data.

[ajnast4r]

my personal experience is that rhodioa does lose effectiveness (permanently) if not cycled...

[Steve_86]

Throw in bacopa, and you'd have a super adaptogen stack. Just take each on their own 4-5 hours apart from each other on an empty stomach.

Why do you suggest 4-5 hour spacing?
I have not been able to find any information as to why bacopa, ashwagandha, and rhodiola should not be taken at them same time.

[NDM]

I have a bottle of Rhodiola...when it's over, I'll replace it with Ashwagandha, then I'll come back to Rhodiola, and so on.
This would mean cycles of 60 days Rh, 60 days Ashw.
Why do people say that they have different mechanisms of action?
I gather that, by and large, they are both adaptogens...the only difference that comes to mind is that Ashw is also good for quality sleep.
Has anybody noticed any nootropic effect while on Ashw? Or it works primarily on stress & mood?

[edward]

I have a bottle of Rhodiola...when it's over, I'll replace it with Ashwagandha, then I'll come back to Rhodiola, and so on.
This would mean cycles of 60 days Rh, 60 days Ashw.
Why do people say that they have different mechanisms of action?
I gather that, by and large, they are both adaptogens...the only difference that comes to mind is that Ashw is also good for quality sleep.
Has anybody noticed any nootropic effect while on Ashw? Or it works primarily on stress & mood?

The basics:

Rhodiola works on dopamine and serotonin, among other things. Ashwagandha works on GABA and Acetylcholine among other things.

The term adaptogen is a very non specific term referring to a whole host of herbs with many different effects. These herbs are not interchangeable.

[NDM]

I have a bottle of Rhodiola...when it's over, I'll replace it with Ashwagandha, then I'll come back to Rhodiola, and so on.
This would mean cycles of 60 days Rh, 60 days Ashw.
Why do people say that they have different mechanisms of action?
I gather that, by and large, they are both adaptogens...the only difference that comes to mind is that Ashw is also good for quality sleep.
Has anybody noticed any nootropic effect while on Ashw? Or it works primarily on stress & mood?

The basics:

Rhodiola works on dopamine and serotonin, among other things. Ashwagandha works on GABA and Acetylcholine among other things.

The term adaptogen is a very non specific term referring to a whole host of herbs with many different effects. These herbs are not interchangeable.

Thanks, that helps a lot ...although, as I've read some older threads about Ashw, it is curious that some people complain that it makes them sleepy,
while some scientific papers claim that it is an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor, which should wake people up!

[dopamine]

Most research on Ashwagandha has been conducted in India on the supposed cancer-preventative properties of the herb, and general immune-enhancing attributes observed in vitro and in some animal models. Even though Ashwagandha is widely regarded as a adaptogen, there is very little research done on the herb suggesting any kind of nootropic, sedating, or energizing effect. Much of the research on Rhodiola rosea has been conducted in Russia, and most of the papers have not been translated into English (making it difficult for other scientists around the world to replicate and confirm the results).

Cycling is a good idea with many different supplements, but I don't think it's necessary in the case of Rhodiola rosea and Ashwagandha. The two seem to have a synergistic anxiolytic effect in my personal experience.

[HereInTheHole]

I've been taking both in the morning for months without any noticable reduction in the effects. Since I take them together, the positive effects might be coming entirely from one and not at all from the other. Positive effects for me: big reduction in stress, minor reduction of hypoglycemic symptoms. Over this past weekend, I stopped both and had an increase in both stress and hypoglycemia symptoms. For what it's worth, both are Jarrow brand.

Edited by NarrativiumX, 30 December 2008 - 05:48 PM.

[vegetagd]

I've been taking both in the morning for months without any noticable reduction in the effects. Since I take them together, the positive effects might be coming entirely from one and not at all from the other. Positive effects for me: big reduction in stress, minor reduction of hypoglycemic symptoms. Over this past weekend, I stopped both and had an increase in both stress and hypoglycemia symptoms. For what it's worth, both are Jarrow brand.

Hi,

I am starting Sensoril & was curious about the need or lack thereof for cycling it. Please see the following email dialogue:

From: Bruce Abedon [mailto:bruce@nutragenesis.com]
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: Sensoril

Hi,

Sensoril can be used daily without the need for cycling. A published study indicates that it remains effective over a 60 day period of daily consumption (in fact, it becomes more efficacious with increasing duration that it is consumed). Let me know if there is anything else you need help with.

Best Regards,

Bruce Abedon, PhD
Director of Scientific Affairs

Nutragenesis LLC
167 Main Street, #208
Brattleboro, VT 05301
802-257-5345
802-251-6981 (fax)
bruce@nutragenesis.com
www.nutragenesis.com

----- Original Message -----

From:
To: Bruce Abedon
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 3:39 PM
Subject: RE: Sensoril

Thanks for the reply Bruce. By cycle, I mean taking a break from consumption of the adaptogen periodically. Many adaptogens such as Rhodiola have shown amazing results that diminish with time if the product isn't cycled. For example, one would take rhodiola for a 30 day period & then abstain from taking it for 15 days before starting it again. Have studies on ashwagandha shown the body to adapt the presence of the herb?

From: Bruce Abedon [mailto:bruce@nutragenesis.com]
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: Sensoril

Dear (Name),

Thanks for contacting me. I don't understand what you mean by 'cycled'. Could you please clarify your question? Thank you.

Best Regards,

Bruce Abedon, PhD
Director of Scientific Affairs

Nutragenesis LLC
167 Main Street, #208
Brattleboro, VT 05301
802-257-5345
802-251-6981 (fax)
bruce@nutragenesis.com
www.nutragenesis.com

----- Original Message -----

From:
To: bruce@nutragenesis.com
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 3:19 PM
Subject: Sensoril

Bruce,

I read your article about Sensoril. Does it need to be cycled to maintain its effectiveness?

Thanks,


I'm not 100% sure I can count on his opinion since he works for the company making Sensoril. Anybody else got specific info on the need to cycle Ashwagandha?

Edited by vegetagd, 09 March 2009 - 09:53 PM.

[Chaos Theory]

I'm bumping this to reopen the question of how necessary it is to cycle these.

For Rhodiola it seems all of the studies and annecdote point to it being best used during periods of a couple months when stress is high, followed by a period of abstinence.

I haven't found anything conclusive for Ashwagandha other than what has already been posted here. The manufacturer of Sensoril promoting continuous use, and annecdote telling people to cycle it based seemingly only on assumption that tolerance will set in otherwise.

[matthias7]

Does anyone have a prefered source of ashwaganha?

Mind Body Spirit is by far the best source of Rhodiola I've used.

[sentrysnipe]

Does the above suggestion of 500mg/day Ashwagandha (>=4% active molecule) work for most people? What is the upper limit?

[Chaos Theory]

Does anyone have a prefered source of ashwaganha?

I've only used the sensoril formula. I use Jarrow, but really anything with the sensoril label should be the same.

Everything on sensoril's website suggests 250mg/day. My Jarrow capsules happen to be 225mg. One capsule has seemingly very little effect, while two capsules puts me into a deep sleep and makes me feel groggy the next morning. My optimal dose is probably somewhere in between.

I also forgot to add, one capsule (225mg) for some reason seems to keep me awake, while two capsules has the relaxing sedative effect.

Edited by Chaos Theory, 13 January 2010 - 01:57 AM.

[Clarity]

I just restarted Rhodiola today & figured I would give it another shot, but different brand. (I settled on the LEF brand after researching on here and it's working great so far). Just thought I'd post what I read today regarding dosing and side effects, as it might explain why so many people either start experiencing anxiety (or loss of effectiveness?):

"At the doses administered in the clinical trials, a complete absence of all side effects has been reported. However, preliminary clinical feedback indicates that at doses of 1.5-2.0 grams and above of Rhodiola rosea extract standardized for two-percent rosavin, some individuals might experience an increase in irritability and insomnia within several days. It is possible that other physiological parameters that benefit from a lower dose of Rhodiola rosea extract might be exacerbated by a dose that is inappropriately high and/or or sustained for prolonged periods of time."

Link: http://www.smart-dru...diola-rosea.htm

Sounds to me like it builds up in your body or whatever the mechanism may be, and regardless of the dose, it's probably best to take a break (or cycle). They mentioned 50-170mg in the articles clinical trials.

[matthias7]

Does anyone have a prefered source of ashwaganha?

I've only used the sensoril formula. I use Jarrow, but really anything with the sensoril label should be the same.

Everything on sensoril's website suggests 250mg/day. My Jarrow capsules happen to be 225mg. One capsule has seemingly very little effect, while two capsules puts me into a deep sleep and makes me feel groggy the next morning. My optimal dose is probably somewhere in between.

I also forgot to add, one capsule (225mg) for some reason seems to keep me awake, while two capsules has the relaxing sedative effect.

Thanks.

Sensoril certainly looks effective. Anyone recommend any more brands/ extractions?

Edited by matthias7, 19 January 2010 - 11:28 PM.