19 replies to this topic

[EmbraceUnity]

There are a lot of these new organic energy bars on the market. Clif Bars are one of the cheapest and, in my opinion, best tasting. These are offered as part of a new organic meal plan at my school. I am wondering if these have a lot of AGEs or are bad in any other ways. They do have ~20g of sugar, but from low glycemic sources like evaporated cane juice and date paste.

I know there are raw food bars on the market, but most taste like crap.

[Athanasios]

The thing I hate most about these type of bars is the adding of cheap vitamins.

[EmbraceUnity]

The thing I hate most about these type of bars is the adding of cheap vitamins.

I agree. I would especially like to do without the iron and selenium. The Clif "Mojo" brand is also available at my campus, which have no added vitamins. However, these don't taste as good and also have added sugar... around 15g.

[REGIMEN]

Clif bars and other nutritional meal replacement/protein type bars all mostly have the taste of rancid ingredients (AGEs right there). I did a test of about 15 different bars from 8 different brands and found some exaggerated flavors used to mask this issue.

Many bars use dates as the binder which is one of the most Damp producing types of fruit which means eating a steady stream of them will compromise your digestion strength. If you're feeling hungry you don't want to eat a food that will do this. Try roasted nuts and homemade bars.

[EmbraceUnity]

Clif bars and other nutritional meal replacement/protein type bars all mostly have the taste of rancid ingredients (AGEs right there). I did a test of about 15 different bars from 8 different brands and found some exaggerated flavors used to mask this issue.

Many bars use dates as the binder which is one of the most Damp producing types of fruit which means eating a steady stream of them will compromise your digestion strength. If you're feeling hungry you don't want to eat a food that will do this. Try roasted nuts and homemade bars.

Could you please provide evidence for any of these claims. What evidence do you have that Clif Bars have rancid ingredients? I was mostly talking about the probability of AGEs forming in the cooking process.

Furthermore, could you please point to studies claiming "damp" fruits "compromise digestion strength."

[REGIMEN]

Clif bars and other nutritional meal replacement/protein type bars all mostly have the taste of rancid ingredients (AGEs right there). I did a test of about 15 different bars from 8 different brands and found some exaggerated flavors used to mask this issue.

Many bars use dates as the binder which is one of the most Damp producing types of fruit which means eating a steady stream of them will compromise your digestion strength. If you're feeling hungry you don't want to eat a food that will do this. Try roasted nuts and homemade bars.

Could you please provide evidence for any of these claims. What evidence do you have that Clif Bars have rancid ingredients? I was mostly talking about the probability of AGEs forming in the cooking process.

Furthermore, could you please point to studies claiming "damp" fruits "compromise digestion strength."

---My sense of taste points to a distinct and particular rancid note in each type and brand I tried. Let's put it this way: most nuts go rancid in less than 3 days after shelling. If you don't notice or know what to sense when you eat nuts that were most likely de-shelled 2+ weeks ago (like most available in stores) then you wouldn't know what you were looking for in a "food bar" which is several ingredients of this nature pressed together as far back as one can imagine (which I might imagine to be 2-4 months not counting the pre-processed time the ingredient had to decay).

---Damp, not just damp; uppercase terms are used to denote main concepts in Traditional Chinese Medicine (such as Liver, Stomach, Cooling, Warming, etc.). It's a TCM concept so there will not likely be any studies. Look through the links in my profile for food info. Get the Paul Pitchford book if you want a comprehensive listing of what effects each food imparts (Damp/Drying, Warming/Cooling, etc.). A lot of these food bars are mostly dates which is thick, viscous dried meat of dates which is difficult to digest. That's why they make you feel "satified and full" for a longer time...not that it's anymore nourishing than say...mashed peas or cooked oats.

[EmbraceUnity]

The nuts used are almonds, and all I can taste is the yucky almond taste that even the freshest almonds have, but for all I know you could be correct. I just like to have more evidence than just "some guy over the internet said it tasted funny to him." As for Traditional Chinese Medicine, it may have once had value just as Jewish and Islamic hand-washing rituals tended to be health-promoting despite their lack of the scientific method, but now that we do have the scientific method old primitive medicinal systems are not to be taken at face value, and their claims must be empirically tested.

If it turns out that a practice or belief is worthless, as most in ancient chinese medicine will undoubtedly turn out to be, then it must be discarded. The same goes for any other medicinal practice. If thousands of people wallowing in holy water turns out to be ineffective and more than likely infection-promoting, which it has been shown, then such a practice should not be promoted as medicinal.

[niner]

There are a lot of these new organic energy bars on the market. Clif Bars are one of the cheapest and, in my opinion, best tasting. These are offered as part of a new organic meal plan at my school. I am wondering if these have a lot of AGEs or are bad in any other ways. They do have ~20g of sugar, but from low glycemic sources like evaporated cane juice and date paste.

I know there are raw food bars on the market, but most taste like crap.

Evaporated cane juice is low glycemic? Isn't that just a fancy term for "sugar"? (I guess technically it would be sugar with dirt in it...) You're right to be concerned about the AGEs in these bars; I'd be very surprised if there were not a lot of high heat methods used in their production. Are there any raw food bars that don't taste like crap? (Are there symmetries we could exploit? Are there any raw crap bars that taste like food?)

[REGIMEN]

The nuts used are almonds, and all I can taste is the yucky almond taste that even the freshest almonds have, but for all I know you could be correct. I just like to have more evidence than just "some guy over the internet said it tasted funny to him." As for Traditional Chinese Medicine, it may have once had value just as Jewish and Islamic hand-washing rituals tended to be health-promoting despite their lack of the scientific method, but now that we do have the scientific method old primitive medicinal systems are not to be taken at face value, and their claims must be empirically tested.

If it turns out that a practice or belief is worthless, as most in ancient chinese medicine will undoubtedly turn out to be, then it must be discarded. The same goes for any other medicinal practice. If thousands of people wallowing in holy water turns out to be ineffective and more than likely infection-promoting, which it has been shown, then such a practice should not be promoted as medicinal.

TCM is not "hand washing practices". TCM is not based in religion. You are a grade-A jackass for comparing the purely ritual and allegorical practices of a religion to a medical system in the manner you did. Understand I am 100% onboard with your opinion until you start with, "As for Traditional Chinese Medicine," and take the time to make the moron's attack of creating a mocking satire of the original term in "ancient chinese medicine". And as far as Jewish and Muslim food practices...much of it actually works to keep bacteria and poor dietary habits from incurring disease. But it wasn't scientifically tested in a lab so it has no merit... ?

You're another "science-has-done-it-all!"-fanboy spewing poor arguments in the patent smug tone rampant in this forum. You hide behind "it's not scientifically tested!" and continue on as ignorant as ever after dropping some embarrassingly deluded comparisons. Good job Mr. Science for larnin' sumtin' noo taday.

I'd much rather choose a drug system fine-tuned over at very least 20-times more centuries than your own system on millions more people and which doesn't apply common warnings on its drugs like, "may cause sudden death and rectal bleeding; please call your doctor if you feel like you are dying or wish to commit suicide from the effects of the drug". Think about it: Western/allopathic medicine is less than a century old. It has it's many impressive victories but is far from as comprehensive as you imply. So many new diseases the medical community has come up with in just the last decade are only merely symptoms and are easily mopped up by TCM (depression, "restless leg syndrome", insomnia, high blood pressure, migraines, allergies, spasms, asthma, chronic fatigue, ADD/ADHD, obesity, hemorrhoids, joint degeneration, diabetes, "leaky gut" syndrome, incontinence, hyper- & hypothyroidism, acne, tinnitus, etc.). Also, you can't claim yet-to-be-decided victories simply on your own inflated sense of superiority because you've "read articles and development predictions over the last number of years". As for studies there are many in recent history that show the activity of particular herbs and TCM formulas to be beneficial and worthwhile. Not listing them doesn't make me wrong, it just makes me lazy so you get no points for putting the spotlight on this one.

A personal associate of mine in his 60's had a bout with three types of cancers. His wealth gave him access to the absolute best doctors in the United States. They failed after prolonged attempts. His three cancers were -eliminated- completely by using "undoubtedly worthless beliefs". It took plenty of lifestyle changes and it did truly happen. Your problem is that you group TCM with actually worthless beliefs like homeopathy and dowsing and other Western herbal practices which are fetal-grade infantile compared to the breadth and depth of TCM. Those are all pathetic attempts by Europeans and Americans in the last few centuries, btw, and not exactly all that long ago. TCM was reformed in the last century. This means all the folk superstition elements were listed and removed and have not been practiced so there aren't anymore "handwashing" correlates to mention.

[EmbraceUnity]

Evaporated cane juice is low glycemic? Isn't that just a fancy term for "sugar"? (I guess technically it would be sugar with dirt in it...)

According to this website, certain sugars that are less refined have a significantly lower glycemic index.

http://www.greenmaga...tive-sugars.php

Also, according to this website, evaporated cane juice has extra vitamin b2.

http://www.whfoods.c...f...ce&dbid=120

Edited by progressive, 16 September 2008 - 11:40 PM.

[EmbraceUnity]

TCM is not "hand washing practices". TCM is not based in religion. You are a grade-A jackass for comparing the purely ritual and allegorical practices of a religion to a medical system in the manner you did. Understand I am 100% onboard with your opinion until you start with, "As for Traditional Chinese Medicine," and take the time to make the moron's attack of creating a mocking satire of the original term in "ancient chinese medicine". And as far as Jewish and Muslim food practices...much of it actually works to keep bacteria and poor dietary habits from incurring disease. But it wasn't scientifically tested in a lab so it has no merit... ?

Traditional Chinese Medicine is to medicine as Astrology is to astronomy. It is heavily based on ancient spiritual beliefs and not science. This isn't the fault of the practices themselves, simply because of the fact that the scientific method was not formulated until much later, and mainly in the West. They simply did not know better. However, now that we do have the scientific method, it is important to uphold it.

Here is an interesting article about the lack of evidence supporting the claims of TCM and the wildly inconsistent diagnoses of TCM practitioners

http://www.quackwatc...Topics/acu.html

This doesn't mean everything in TCM is worthless, it just means that its worth must be tested, and any rational person looking at a medicinal system based on spiritual beliefs would be right to doubt the veracity of most of the claims. This is coming from someone who regularly takes supplements like Turmeric and Garlic which are prized by TCM; however, I do not take them because Chinese people have been using it for centuries, but because there is scientific evidence supporting their use. It doesn't matter how many centuries people have been blood letting to cure diseases, all that matters is whether there is evidence supporting such a practice.

This is getting off topic, so feel free to start a new thread if you wish. I don't care enough to.

Edited by progressive, 17 September 2008 - 12:25 AM.

[REGIMEN]

TCM is not "hand washing practices". TCM is not based in religion. You are a grade-A jackass for comparing the purely ritual and allegorical practices of a religion to a medical system in the manner you did. Understand I am 100% onboard with your opinion until you start with, "As for Traditional Chinese Medicine," and take the time to make the moron's attack of creating a mocking satire of the original term in "ancient chinese medicine". And as far as Jewish and Muslim food practices...much of it actually works to keep bacteria and poor dietary habits from incurring disease. But it wasn't scientifically tested in a lab so it has no merit... ?

Traditional Chinese Medicine is to medicine as Astrology is to astronomy. It is heavily based on ancient spiritual beliefs and not science. This isn't the fault of the practices themselves, simply because of the fact that the scientific method was not formulated until much later, and mainly in the West. They simply did not know better. However, now that we do have the scientific method, it is important to uphold it.

Here is an interesting article about the lack of evidence supporting the claims of TCM and the wildly inconsistent diagnoses of TCM practitioners

http://www.quackwatc...Topics/acu.html

This doesn't mean everything in TCM is worthless, it just means that its worth must be tested, and any rational person looking at a medicinal system based on spiritual beliefs would be right to doubt the veracity of most of the claims. This is coming from someone who regularly takes supplements like Turmeric and Garlic which are prized by TCM; however, I do not take them because Chinese people have been using it for centuries, but because there is scientific evidence supporting their use. It doesn't matter how many centuries people have been blood letting to cure diseases, all that matters is whether there is evidence supporting such a practice.

This is getting off topic, so feel free to start a new thread if you wish. I don't care enough to.

So you ....don't care? Huh, looks like you spent quite a lot of time just humoring me then. So now I'm not allowed to counter because you got it all off your chest? Run away baby cakes...and after pissing a real masterpiece on my fence. Human waste really is best 'removed' and forgotten. Next time you have a differing opinion you "don't care about" then you might want to try less verbiage.

[Insert 200 word riposte] {Next, walk away saying it's over with QuackWatch for the win}

???

Take a look at rootdown.us in their TCM herb directory; you might learn how ham-fisted your herb and supplement approach really is:
http://www.rootdown....hiddenValueBox=
http://www.rootdown....hiddenValueBox=
http://www.rootdown.... Hui?query=aloe

Astronomy to Astrology? Sure....then "astrology" healed my friend of three cancers when your advanced "astronomy" failed. Cancer ascending, Arrogants descending.

TCM is not based on "spiritual practices". Another lie created out of thin air by someone who would rather regurgitate the party line they swallowed whole rather than learn how many baseless denials they've also digested. That's quite a lot of faith on the part of someone so sold on the scientific method.

"Inconsistent diagnoses" aren't inconsistent; they're sensitive to the rapid changes that happen in the body during the sequence of treatment.

"Blood letting"... Now there's a failed Western practice...which was still being done little more than a century ago. TCM's perspective on blood is that it's best kept in the body. There's even a whole category of imbalance called Blood Deficiency and it's broader than just "anemia" and "low blood sugar".

QuackWatch is basically the tabloid counter to so many internet cures like "heavy metal chelation therapy" and "parasite purges"...most symptoms of which are really just more common yet highly developed imbalances from modern-diet-&-lifestyle as described by TCM. The problem there is that those people have legitimate symptoms which allopathy explicitly ignores. So much suffering...."just give 'em another Vicodin, SSRI, or penicillin..." amateurs.

One of the issues TCM deniers love to bring up is the "endangered animal as medicine" issue. There are replacements for those ingredients taken from such animals...most of them vegetal. Saying some black market bumpkins using "hoodoo" ingredients like those is little different than all the people on this very forum taking a dozen or two supplements, medications, and herbs in ways unproven by the scientific method. They're just as guilty of unwarranted-faith and inconsistencies. Again, just like you.

Edited by REGIMEN, 20 September 2008 - 10:35 AM.

[Ben]

ah REGIMEN (IN BIG CAPITAL LETTARZZZZ), the trend in this forum is towards real sciences and ah, empirical evidence.

Are you the guy that believes in gems too? Or was that some other nutjob? Really though, this is a place for science.

[REGIMEN]

ah REGIMEN (IN BIG CAPITAL LETTARZZZZ), the trend in this forum is towards real sciences and ah, empirical evidence.

Are you the guy that believes in gems too? Or was that some other nutjob? Really though, this is a place for science.

No, I don't "believe in gems"; don't patronize me. That stuff tends toward the Ayurvedic/Indian tradition....and even then I think it's more of a twist to keep jewelers in fresh money by pushing cyclical-buying-cycle hokum on their rich clientele.

Yes, I know it's about "science" here. I thought "science" was hot shit back in '05-'06 when I was taking all of these supplements and herbs myself with what seems to be much more mindfulness and care than the waves of newcomers in the last year...even two. What did I find? You're in for a surprise. Supps and herbs for anyone that doesn't have a decade of academic/economic/intellectual success under their belt already, that is anyone that has no proven basis of good health, is going to fall on their ass when trying to touch the sun. TCM is the only system that knows how to actually balance people's foibles; these foibles become magnified for the worse by "scientifically tested" drugs but come into order under the tutelage of a TCM doctor through herbs and diet. IME


If he has anything more than one article on Quack Watch and his own self-inflated regurgitations to stand as a solid sweeping science-based statement of TCM's ineptitude then please let him produce it. As I said: this isn't homeopathy or any other hokum BS; this stuff actually works and you'd be a fool to think comparing it to such pathetically ignorant references dismisses it.

It's REGIMEN for a good cause; to lay in wait as example of the proper term most mean to use but fail to execute. "Regime" is a poor replacement for "regimen" especially when you mean "regimen".

I don't leet speak so you'll have to swallow that back up. And you thought you had me pinned....pooh on you.

[Moonbeam]

Organic Food Bars taste good and I eat them a lot when I'm not doing low-carb; the protein one seems the best nutritionally. I think for a convenience food they are about the best, without that isolated soy protein crap that they put in so many of the Clif products. Lara bars taste really good too but are pretty sweet.

[EmbraceUnity]

Organic Food Bars taste good and I eat them a lot when I'm not doing low-carb; the protein one seems the best nutritionally. I think for a convenience food they are about the best, without that isolated soy protein crap that they put in so many of the Clif products. Lara bars taste really good too but are pretty sweet.

As a vegetarian, I like that they use soy protein. All that matters is if it has all the good amino acids, right?

[Moonbeam]

Organic Food Bars taste good and I eat them a lot when I'm not doing low-carb; the protein one seems the best nutritionally. I think for a convenience food they are about the best, without that isolated soy protein crap that they put in so many of the Clif products. Lara bars taste really good too but are pretty sweet.

As a vegetarian, I like that they use soy protein. All that matters is if it has all the good amino acids, right?

Not if you are trying to avoid processed foods, and stick to whole foods. In addition, there are potential problems with concentration of the estrogenic, goitrogenic, etc. bad properties of soy.

[Dmitri]

TCM is not "hand washing practices". TCM is not based in religion. You are a grade-A jackass for comparing the purely ritual and allegorical practices of a religion to a medical system in the manner you did. Understand I am 100% onboard with your opinion until you start with, "As for Traditional Chinese Medicine," and take the time to make the moron's attack of creating a mocking satire of the original term in "ancient chinese medicine". And as far as Jewish and Muslim food practices...much of it actually works to keep bacteria and poor dietary habits from incurring disease. But it wasn't scientifically tested in a lab so it has no merit... ?

Traditional Chinese Medicine is to medicine as Astrology is to astronomy. It is heavily based on ancient spiritual beliefs and not science. This isn't the fault of the practices themselves, simply because of the fact that the scientific method was not formulated until much later, and mainly in the West. They simply did not know better. However, now that we do have the scientific method, it is important to uphold it.

Here is an interesting article about the lack of evidence supporting the claims of TCM and the wildly inconsistent diagnoses of TCM practitioners

http://www.quackwatc...Topics/acu.html

This doesn't mean everything in TCM is worthless, it just means that its worth must be tested, and any rational person looking at a medicinal system based on spiritual beliefs would be right to doubt the veracity of most of the claims. This is coming from someone who regularly takes supplements like Turmeric and Garlic which are prized by TCM; however, I do not take them because Chinese people have been using it for centuries, but because there is scientific evidence supporting their use. It doesn't matter how many centuries people have been blood letting to cure diseases, all that matters is whether there is evidence supporting such a practice.

This is getting off topic, so feel free to start a new thread if you wish. I don't care enough to.

There might be some benefits to TCM. The Macrobiotic Diet (the diet Madonna and Gwyneth Paltrow are on) takes some ideas from TCM (the Yin and the Yang and the idea that you have to eat foods depending on the seasons) and there are some studies on pubmed that show some promise with diabetics, cancer prevention and cancer patients who practice MB. Perhaps researches should look more into these alternative diets so we know if they truly do work or if they're worthless like some people believe.

Here are the abstracts:




The self-reliant system for alternative care of diabetes mellitus patients--experience macrobiotic management in Trad Province.
Bhumisawasdi J, Vanna O, Surinpang N.Bureau of Inspector, Office of Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Public Health, Nonthaburi 11000, Thailand. jakkriss@health.moph.go.th

BACKGROUND AND OBJECTIVE: Diabetes mellitus is a costly and growing health issue for the individual as well as the nation with much concern needed to change the way of life globally, Thailand included. Conventional medical care comprises of lifestyle modifications and the use of diabetic drugs but even with the development of new drugs, little achievement has been noted in relation to reducing the disease's complications. Macrobiotic is a holistic, alternative health care method. In macrobiotic principle, humans should live, drink and eat in conjunction with the laws of nature that will lead to good health, freedom and wisdom in understanding the laws of nature. The macrobiotic way of living is therefore the caring of body, mind, spirit and the environment in an independent manner based on adequacy and symbiotic support. MATERIAL AND METHOD: The present study consists of forty-four type 2 diabetes mellitus patients from the DM clinic, Trad Provincial Hospital. 4 subjects were insulin treated, observing the macrobiotic ways of living together at the Wanakaset Research Facility of Kasetsart University, Trad Province which lies in a natural forest area approximately 45 kilometers away from the city for a period of between 2 to 14 weeks. The volunteers were required to refrain from using all kind of drugs or chemicals and eating Formula 2 food as set forth by the International Un Punto Macrobiotico Foundation, Italy while participating in all camp activities. RESULTS: The findings at the end of the program together with QOL assessment questionnaires noted a statistically significant reduction in blood sugar levels, weight, blood pressure and heart beat ratios. Subjects were in significantly better health, more vibrant, more peaceful, and more energetic. The 4 insulin treated volunteers managed to maintain their blood sugar level within the range of 110-171 mg% without any insulin injection and all volunteers are free of any adverse events. CONCLUSION: The results of the present study can be a guideline in the modification of health care policies that can lead to the development of effective, and alternative care of diabetes mellitus patients.




Adjuvant diet to improve hormonal and metabolic factors affecting breast cancer prognosis.
Berrino F, Villarini A, De Petris M, Raimondi M, Pasanisi P.Department of Preventive and Predictive Medicine, Istituto Nazionale Tumori, Via Venezian, 1, 20133, Milan, Italy. berrino@istitutotumori.mi.it

Western lifestyle, characterized by reduced physical activity and a diet rich in fat, refined carbohydrates, and animal protein is associated with high prevalence of overweight, metabolic syndrome, insulin resistance, and high plasma levels of several growth factors and sex hormones. Most of these factors are associated with breast cancer risk and, in breast cancer patients, with increased risk of recurrences. Recent trials have proven that such a metabolic and endocrine imbalance can be favorably modified through comprehensive dietary modification, shifting from Western to Mediterranean and macrobiotic diet.



The macrobiotic diet in cancer.
Kushi LH, Cunningham JE, Hebert JR, Lerman RH, Bandera EV, Teas J.Program in Nutrition, Department of Health & Behavior Studies, Teachers College, Columbia University, New York, NY, USA. lhk26@columbia.edu

Macrobiotics is one of the most popular alternative or complementary comprehensive lifestyle approaches to cancer. The centerpiece of macrobiotics is a predominantly vegetarian, whole-foods diet that has gained popularity because of remarkable case reports of individuals who attributed recoveries from cancers with poor prognoses to macrobiotics and the substantial evidence that the many dietary factors recommended by macrobiotics are associated with decreased cancer risk. Women consuming macrobiotic diets have modestly lower circulating estrogen levels, suggesting a lower risk of breast cancer. This may be due in part to the high phytoestrogen content of the macrobiotic diet. As with most aspects of diet in cancer therapy, there has been limited research evaluating the effectiveness of the macrobiotic diet in alleviating suffering or prolonging survival of cancer patients. The few studies have compared the experience of cancer patients who tried macrobiotics with expected survival rates or assembled series of cases that may justify more rigorous research. On the basis of available evidence and its similarity to dietary recommendations for chronic disease prevention, the macrobiotic diet probably carries a reduced cancer risk. However, at present, the empirical scientific basis for or against recommendations for use of macrobiotics for cancer therapy is limited. Any such recommendations are likely to reflect biases of the recommender. Because of its popularity and the compelling evidence that dietary factors are important in cancer etiology and survival, further research to clarify whether the macrobiotic diet or similar dietary patterns are effective in cancer prevention and treatment is warranted.

Edited by Dmitri, 21 September 2008 - 09:06 PM.

[Healthy Skeptic]

Although I applaud Cliff for not being a maltodextrin brick like most bars are, I prefer 100% whole food bars like Lara Bar. They taste much better to me and I prefer not to have extra sugar added to my food. The fruit in most of these bars provide quite enough sugar.

Edited by Healthy Skeptic, 22 September 2008 - 12:30 AM.

[REGIMEN]

Although I applaud Cliff for not being a maltodextrin brick like most bars are, I prefer 100% whole food bars like Lara Bar. They taste much better to me and I prefer not to have extra sugar added to my food. The fruit in most of these bars provide quite enough sugar.

Honest Foods brand Squares beat Clif Bars for me.

http://www.honest-fo...ry_squares.html
http://www.cpbgaller...co-pnut-butter/

I'm considering making my own since I know I feel better after eating molasses and raw honey than I do with rice syrup(which this product uses as its main sweetener).

Clif Bars have several soy derivative ingredients which makes me retain water and feel tired and slow. TCM defines soy as Cooling with other effects that diminishes digestive strength (this may be why it makes one feel full longer...it's just taking longer to digest...not exactly the boon to health that some make it although quick digesting flours and sugars aren't any better).