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#1 justagame

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Posted 01 October 2008 - 10:48 AM


Hey all, thanks for all the really great info on this site! I'm suffering from a bit of "information overload", and I can't find one specific answer about Selegiline, so I thought I'd ask..

I'm 22 and interested in starting on Selegiline. I've read on this forum that it's possibly not too good for younger people. Why?

I WAS thinking about 1mg EOD or something like that, but now I'm not so sure..

Any response is appreciated :)

#2 justagame

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Posted 01 October 2008 - 02:54 PM

Well look at this, I've found it.. Kind of.. Anyway, I've decided not to take it..

http://www.imminst.o...?showtopic=9034

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#3 luv2increase

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Posted 01 October 2008 - 05:08 PM

The scientist who created Selegiline, Dr. Knolls, says that to get the most life-extending capabilities out of selegiline, one must take it at 1mg daily at the onset of puberty.

There is no reason at all that selegiline is inadvisable to take for younger people. It is just an MAO-I. Doctors have been prescribing these to people of all ages for a long time now.

The great thing about selegiline is that it is incredibly safe, and it is a selective, irreversible MAO-b inhibitor. This means you don't have to worry about the cheese-effect from taking selegiline which means you don't have to worry about eating foods high in tyramine. This is, of course, if you take less than 10mg daily which most of us here at Imminst do.


I am 25 years old and have been taken selegiline with great results and absolutely no ill-effects for months now at dosages ranging from 1mg-4mg daily. I have even stopped taking selegiline at one point for a couple months and didn't have any withdrawal or negative effects due to cessation whatsoever.


Here is an interesting study. It is safe for children under 5 years of age too!!!

Selegiline in the treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder in children: a double blind and randomized trial
by
Akhondzadeh S, Tavakolian R,
Davari-Ashtiani R, Arabgol F, Amini H.
Roozbeh Psychiatric Hospital,
Tehran University of Medical Sciences,
South Kargar Avenue, 13334, Tehran, Iran
Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry. 2003 Aug;27(5):841-5
Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is a common disorder of childhood that affects 3% to 6% of school-age children. Conventional stimulant medications are recognized by both specialists and parents as useful symptomatic treatment. Nevertheless, approximately 30% of ADHD children treated with them do not respond adequately or cannot tolerate the associated adverse effects. Such difficulties highlight the need for alternative safe and effective medications in the treatment of this disorder. Selegiline is a type B monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI) that is metabolized to amphetamine and methamphetamine stimulant compounds that may be useful in the treatment of ADHD. The authors undertook this study to further evaluate, under double-blind and controlled conditions, the efficacy of selegiline for ADHD in children. A total of 28 children with ADHD as defined by DSM IV were randomized to selegiline or methylphenidate dosed on an age and weight-adjusted basis at selegiline 5 mg/day (under 5 years) and 10 mg/day (over 5 years) (Group 1) and methylphenidate 1 mg/kg/day (Group 2) for a 4-week double-blind clinical trial. The principal measure of the outcome was the Teacher and Parent ADHD Rating Scale. Patients were assessed by a child psychiatrist at baseline, 14 and 28 days after the medication started. No significant differences were observed between the two protocols on the Parent and Teacher Rating Scale scores. Although the number of dropouts in the methylphenidate group was higher than in the selegiline group, there was no significant difference between the two protocols in terms of the dropouts. Decreased appetite, difficulty falling asleep and headaches were observed more in the methylphenidate group.The results of this study must be considered preliminary, but they do suggest that selegiline may be beneficial in the treatment of ADHD. In addition, a tolerable side effect profile may be considered as one of the advantages of selegiline in the treatment of ADHD.




Selegiline is the best drug anyone could take to prolong their life by protecting the dopamine neurotransmitter system in the brain from deterioration, period. Take selegiline citrate --> Cyprenil ---> $60 will last you 300 days! Good luck!

Edited by luv2increase, 01 October 2008 - 05:09 PM.


#4 justagame

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Posted 01 October 2008 - 07:09 PM

The scientist who created Selegiline, Dr. Knolls, says that to get the most life-extending capabilities out of selegiline, one must take it at 1mg daily at the onset of puberty.

There is no reason at all that selegiline is inadvisable to take for younger people. It is just an MAO-I. Doctors have been prescribing these to people of all ages for a long time now.

The great thing about selegiline is that it is incredibly safe, and it is a selective, irreversible MAO-b inhibitor. This means you don't have to worry about the cheese-effect from taking selegiline which means you don't have to worry about eating foods high in tyramine. This is, of course, if you take less than 10mg daily which most of us here at Imminst do.


I am 25 years old and have been taken selegiline with great results and absolutely no ill-effects for months now at dosages ranging from 1mg-4mg daily. I have even stopped taking selegiline at one point for a couple months and didn't have any withdrawal or negative effects due to cessation whatsoever.


Here is an interesting study. It is safe for children under 5 years of age too!!!

Selegiline in the treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder in children: a double blind and randomized trial
by
Akhondzadeh S, Tavakolian R,
Davari-Ashtiani R, Arabgol F, Amini H.
Roozbeh Psychiatric Hospital,
Tehran University of Medical Sciences,
South Kargar Avenue, 13334, Tehran, Iran
Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry. 2003 Aug;27(5):841-5
Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is a common disorder of childhood that affects 3% to 6% of school-age children. Conventional stimulant medications are recognized by both specialists and parents as useful symptomatic treatment. Nevertheless, approximately 30% of ADHD children treated with them do not respond adequately or cannot tolerate the associated adverse effects. Such difficulties highlight the need for alternative safe and effective medications in the treatment of this disorder. Selegiline is a type B monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI) that is metabolized to amphetamine and methamphetamine stimulant compounds that may be useful in the treatment of ADHD. The authors undertook this study to further evaluate, under double-blind and controlled conditions, the efficacy of selegiline for ADHD in children. A total of 28 children with ADHD as defined by DSM IV were randomized to selegiline or methylphenidate dosed on an age and weight-adjusted basis at selegiline 5 mg/day (under 5 years) and 10 mg/day (over 5 years) (Group 1) and methylphenidate 1 mg/kg/day (Group 2) for a 4-week double-blind clinical trial. The principal measure of the outcome was the Teacher and Parent ADHD Rating Scale. Patients were assessed by a child psychiatrist at baseline, 14 and 28 days after the medication started. No significant differences were observed between the two protocols on the Parent and Teacher Rating Scale scores. Although the number of dropouts in the methylphenidate group was higher than in the selegiline group, there was no significant difference between the two protocols in terms of the dropouts. Decreased appetite, difficulty falling asleep and headaches were observed more in the methylphenidate group.The results of this study must be considered preliminary, but they do suggest that selegiline may be beneficial in the treatment of ADHD. In addition, a tolerable side effect profile may be considered as one of the advantages of selegiline in the treatment of ADHD.




Selegiline is the best drug anyone could take to prolong their life by protecting the dopamine neurotransmitter system in the brain from deterioration, period. Take selegiline citrate --> Cyprenil ---> $60 will last you 300 days! Good luck!


Wow, that was a great post, thanks so much! I'll have a bigger read into Cyprenil..

#5 Ben

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 12:02 AM

Wow, that was a great post, thanks so much! I'll have a bigger read into Cyprenil..


Please do have a bigger read into it. Deprenyl is a serious drug. Note the use of the word drug as apposed to supplement.

I would speak to your doctor first before experimenting with deprenyl. It is after all a pharmaceutical and a psychoactive one at that.

#6 luv2increase

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 12:24 AM

Wow, that was a great post, thanks so much! I'll have a bigger read into Cyprenil..


Please do have a bigger read into it. Deprenyl is a serious drug. Note the use of the word drug as apposed to supplement.

I would speak to your doctor first before experimenting with deprenyl. It is after all a pharmaceutical and a psychoactive one at that.



You make it sound dangerous. I challenge you to find and post here anything conflicting, dangerous information on it. I am waiting...

#7 justagame

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 09:03 AM

See, this is the thing.. So many people say, "yeah, go for it mate, it's great!", and then you have the people saying, "it's dangerous if you're under 30, see a doctor first".

So.. Can ANYONE tell me why it is dangerous to take before 30? Will there be too much dopamine in my system? Will I get super irritable?

On another note, I have no doctor. I mean, I haven't been for about 10 years because I've never really been sick.

#8 Ben

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 01:38 PM

Wow, that was a great post, thanks so much! I'll have a bigger read into Cyprenil..


Please do have a bigger read into it. Deprenyl is a serious drug. Note the use of the word drug as apposed to supplement.

I would speak to your doctor first before experimenting with deprenyl. It is after all a pharmaceutical and a psychoactive one at that.



You make it sound dangerous. I challenge you to find and post here anything conflicting, dangerous information on it. I am waiting...


I make no claim that I cannot prove. It is a fact that it is a pharmaceutical. I did draw the conclusion from that that you should therefore speak to a Dr. before using it; to me, however, that's not so outlandish a conclusion.

I therefore don't accept your challenge. I issue you with one though: Prove to me it's completely safe.

Also, I'd say that your rhetoric on this forum almost serves as a warning to anyone considering taking any of the myriad of mind altering substances you've mentioned that you take.

#9 kismet

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 02:03 PM

I make no claim that I cannot prove. It is a fact that it is a pharmaceutical. I did draw the conclusion from that that you should therefore speak to a Dr. before using it; to me, however, that's not so outlandish a conclusion.

I therefore don't accept your challenge. I issue you with one though: Prove to me it's completely safe.

Also, I'd say that your rhetoric on this forum almost serves as a warning to anyone considering taking any of the myriad of mind altering substances you've mentioned that you take.

That's the point there are simply two schools of thought, a conservative approach, where you take only the supps/drugs that are proven to do something positive in controlled human studies and are completely safe. The other approach is to take more risks to 'gain an edge' or something along the lines. Both have their merits.
The first is often practised by CRONies, MR is also one proponent. Personally I'm somewhere in between but I can understand both sides. Experimenting is fun, challanging and most often it works providing some benefits, but what if something goes wrong just once? Being conservative guarantees nothing will go wrong and saves money, which can be spent on alternative approaches (e.g. SENS and other research).

Considering that Deprenyl is unproven as a life extending drug in humans and there are other nootropics that may work (better), not everyone needs to take it!

#10 Mixter

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 02:20 PM

Regarding Selegiline: It benefits the mitochondria and is neuroprotective, which is a great life extension plus.

Something that speaks a lot for selegiline is that it even seems able to safely treat schizophrenia:
http://cat.inist.fr/...&cpsidt=1715695
(Selegiline augmentation of antipsychotics for the treatment of negative symptoms in schizophrenia)
But the dopaminergic effects of a MAO-B are still problematic, even at low doses, for
example, any increasing of dopamine can trigger latent psychosis (!= schizophrenia).

Dopamine levels and processing varies a lot individually. If I go above 1 mg, or even
take 1mg every day, I have a lot more energy, but can get aggressive and annoyed at
nothing, almost a different person. Maybe I'm just an aggressive guy with a dopamine
lack, but something forcing a change of attitude is pretty unwanted, I'd say. For people
over 40, it is almost a must for life extension, as nothing else we know prevents
degeneration of substantia nigra that well, for example. But younger than that, you
the excessive dopaminergic activity can just be annoying or even harmful IMO.

#11 kismet

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 03:56 PM

Regarding Selegiline: It benefits the mitochondria and is neuroprotective, which is a great life extension plus.

I'm sure there are ample benefits described in the literature, even though I haven't done much research on deprenyl myself.
The extension of maximum life span as demonstrated by Knoll et al and other organisations involved was never repeated IIRC, but extension of average life span has been routinely shown. The brain being the most important organ for life extensionists (who want to prevent information-theoretic death) makes it an excellent target for interventions.

Yet, I think there are no or very few studies validating clinical endpoints (that might be relevant to life extensionists) for deprenyl in humans, as in contrast to surrogate endpoints (e.g. neuro-protection in vitro).
I think Kitani et al achieved extension of average life span in rodents starting treatment at 'middle age'. Considering the current evidence I'm inclined to believe that starting at the age of ~40, as Mixter has said, is not such a bad idea. If I get around to it, I will review some of the interesting studies and report back. This thread got me interested again.

#12 luv2increase

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Posted 03 October 2008 - 04:06 AM

I therefore don't accept your challenge. I issue you with one though: Prove to me it's completely safe.


Does it dramatically extending life prove that it may be just a little safe?? If you don't take it in high enough dosages to inhibit MAO-a, you'll be fine! Ben - Aus, permit me to ask a serious question; what is your background in supplements and pharmaceuticals?


Also, I'd say that your rhetoric on this forum almost serves as a warning to anyone considering taking any of the myriad of mind altering substances you've mentioned that you take.


Actually son, I've been at this much longer than you have. Just because you are not happy with yourself does not mean you have to get all defensive and try to bring happy people down. Selegiline has had an ENORMOUS amount of studies done on it showing it not to be bad IN THE LEAST TO THE HUMAN BODY!!! In fact, those studies have revealed it is indeed extremely good for your body in more ways than 1.


Ben - Aus, I guarantee that you have never looked up a scientific study in your life, seriously. I beg you to visit http://www.pubmed.gov to get a taste of that which you are attempting to spew. Good luck Daniel Son

Edited by luv2increase, 03 October 2008 - 04:07 AM.


#13 Ben

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Posted 03 October 2008 - 10:00 AM

I therefore don't accept your challenge. I issue you with one though: Prove to me it's completely safe.


Does it dramatically extending life prove that it may be just a little safe?? If you don't take it in high enough dosages to inhibit MAO-a, you'll be fine! Ben - Aus, permit me to ask a serious question; what is your background in supplements and pharmaceuticals?


Also, I'd say that your rhetoric on this forum almost serves as a warning to anyone considering taking any of the myriad of mind altering substances you've mentioned that you take.


Actually son, I've been at this much longer than you have. Just because you are not happy with yourself does not mean you have to get all defensive and try to bring happy people down. Selegiline has had an ENORMOUS amount of studies done on it showing it not to be bad IN THE LEAST TO THE HUMAN BODY!!! In fact, those studies have revealed it is indeed extremely good for your body in more ways than 1.


Ben - Aus, I guarantee that you have never looked up a scientific study in your life, seriously. I beg you to visit http://www.pubmed.gov to get a taste of that which you are attempting to spew. Good luck Daniel Son


You're an idiot. I know that's an ad hom. attack but seriously in this case it really is hard not to be ad. the hominem.

I'd get off what ever it is you're on.

BIG CAPITAL LETTARZZZZ

edit: and exclamation marks!!!!!

Edited by Ben - Aus, 03 October 2008 - 10:00 AM.


#14 chilp

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Posted 03 October 2008 - 12:45 PM

There's been some user's report claiming that selegiline could produce emotional numbness after a while.

#15 justagame

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Posted 03 October 2008 - 01:48 PM

OK, so this topic is ridiculously interesting for me, especially with all this drama. I got some Cyprenil yesterday and took one drop. I kept it in my mouth for about 10 minutes and then swallowed.. Nothing.. I guess I'll take it for a few days at 1mg everyday and see if my already irritable personality gets even more aggressive! On a side note, I've started drinking Rooibos tea, which might help with any irritable side effects :)

As far as all the arguments go, there seem to be far more positive reviews and studies on Selegiline than negative.

Of all the people who experienced negative effects from Deprenyl, what were the bad effects, how old were you, and in what dosages did you take it? Also, did you take the liquid form or the tablet form? The most common negative effect I've heard of is anger.. This doesn't seem too bad, at least it hasn't caused schizophrenia!

#16 luv2increase

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Posted 03 October 2008 - 03:26 PM

I therefore don't accept your challenge. I issue you with one though: Prove to me it's completely safe.


Does it dramatically extending life prove that it may be just a little safe?? If you don't take it in high enough dosages to inhibit MAO-a, you'll be fine! Ben - Aus, permit me to ask a serious question; what is your background in supplements and pharmaceuticals?


Also, I'd say that your rhetoric on this forum almost serves as a warning to anyone considering taking any of the myriad of mind altering substances you've mentioned that you take.


Actually son, I've been at this much longer than you have. Just because you are not happy with yourself does not mean you have to get all defensive and try to bring happy people down. Selegiline has had an ENORMOUS amount of studies done on it showing it not to be bad IN THE LEAST TO THE HUMAN BODY!!! In fact, those studies have revealed it is indeed extremely good for your body in more ways than 1.


Ben - Aus, I guarantee that you have never looked up a scientific study in your life, seriously. I beg you to visit http://www.pubmed.gov to get a taste of that which you are attempting to spew. Good luck Daniel Son


You're an idiot. I know that's an ad hom. attack but seriously in this case it really is hard not to be ad. the hominem.

I'd get off what ever it is you're on.

BIG CAPITAL LETTARZZZZ

edit: and exclamation marks!!!!!



That's as ad hominem as could possibly be Ben. It's nice you start your response with "i know that's an ad hom" like that makes it ok to further progress with your ad-hominem attack.

Anyways, I don't know why the letters got extra big. I didn't do anything with the size as you can see when you hit reply to my post: there is not [size=a number] or anything. I am just getting my point across.


You never answered me.

I said

Ben - Aus, permit me to ask a serious question; what is your background in supplements and pharmaceuticals?


&

Ben - Aus, I guarantee that you have never looked up a scientific study in your life, seriously.

Have you Ben???

This is relevant because it is like an Average Joe trying to tell someone who has studied for years in a field that the expert doesn't know what he is talking about. You are trying to use your flawed common-sense logic. It isn't working. How can someone take your advice when they don't even know your background?

Answer these questions Ben.


Much Obliged Daniel Son. :)

#17 brotherx

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Posted 03 October 2008 - 04:55 PM

My interpretations of Ben's comments are that he points out that selegiline is a drug with a major impact on dopamine (via Monoamine oxidase inhibition).
It is known that Dopamine has many functions in the brain, including important roles in behavior and cognition, motor activity, motivation and reward, inhibition of prolactin production (involved in lactation), sleep, mood, attention, and learning.
Additionally to that dopamine has an major impact on prolactin and is therefore sometimes called prolactin-inhibiting-factor, [...].

Ben is indicating - with his short comment - that selegiline has an strong impact on various important factors in the human brain and body. And that it is therefore important to study this drug extensively before taking it.
This is a recommendation which I usually also interpret into most of your comments, luv2increase.

Sometimes, if I have the appropriate time to answer in a long, detailed scientific way - I am doing it - sometimes - if I don't have the time - I just leave a short comment - if think this might be helpful.

Cheers

Alex

Wow, that was a great post, thanks so much! I'll have a bigger read into Cyprenil..


Please do have a bigger read into it. Deprenyl is a serious drug. Note the use of the word drug as apposed to supplement.

I would speak to your doctor first before experimenting with deprenyl. It is after all a pharmaceutical and a psychoactive one at that.



You make it sound dangerous. I challenge you to find and post here anything conflicting, dangerous information on it. I am waiting...



#18 brotherx

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Posted 03 October 2008 - 05:06 PM

Justagame,

welcome.
There are people who think 1 drop a day is the best way to go - and there are other people who think 2.5mg (half a selegiline tab) is the best way to go.
If you take 2.5 at once, dissolved under your tongue - you will get immediate effects (which usually lasts 2-4 days).
Be aware that the MAO inhibition effect builds up and stays longer than just 1 day.
I have tried both the liquid form and the tablet form. Personally, I've got more consistent effects from the tablet form.

If you are an irritable person by nature - be aware - selegiline (Cyprenil) will boost this aggressiveness most probably.

Cheers

Alex

OK, so this topic is ridiculously interesting for me, especially with all this drama. I got some Cyprenil yesterday and took one drop. I kept it in my mouth for about 10 minutes and then swallowed.. Nothing.. I guess I'll take it for a few days at 1mg everyday and see if my already irritable personality gets even more aggressive! On a side note, I've started drinking Rooibos tea, which might help with any irritable side effects :)

As far as all the arguments go, there seem to be far more positive reviews and studies on Selegiline than negative.

Of all the people who experienced negative effects from Deprenyl, what were the bad effects, how old were you, and in what dosages did you take it? Also, did you take the liquid form or the tablet form? The most common negative effect I've heard of is anger.. This doesn't seem too bad, at least it hasn't caused schizophrenia!



#19 kismet

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Posted 03 October 2008 - 07:25 PM

I have been interested in selegeline/deprenyl as a life extension drug for quite some time, so I tried to improve my shallow understanding of the subject; unsurprsingly now I can second MR's conclusion on the life extension benefits of the substance:
The studies show enormous hetereogenity, the patent holder Joseph Knoll was the only one to achieve meaningful extension of maximum life span. Even extension of average and 'healthy' life span was only achieve in rats (Kitani et al. 1993 and 2005, Milgram et al. 1990) - contrary to what I believed.
In contrast similar doses decreased the life span of another rat strain (Gallagher et al. 1998).
Deprenyl did nothing for the long-lived C57BL/6J mice (Ingram et al. 1993), nor for most other mouse models. Interestingly very small doses of deprenyl increased (or rather 'normalised') the life span of female syrian hamsters, but not that of males (Stoll et al. 1994).
So assuming we want to use D for its life extension benefits, which dose to choose?
If the effect of D varies with strain, gender and age (as described by Kitani et al.) and we're looking for a hormetic response, in the shape of an inverted U (too much decreases life span, not enough does nothing) it seems risky to extrapolate from equivocal animal tests.

So human data might be helpful to find the right dose:
So we're looking for epidemiological data on mortality/life span, data showing reduced morbidity or improved quality of life, controlled trials, or data on surrogate endpoints that are associated with clinical endpoints (maybe increased SOD/CAT in brain regions). Preferably data in healthy humans.
The data on neuroprotection in parkinson seems mixed. If you know of any recent studies that might be relevant to healthy human aging just post them. I haven't looked at many studies, but the aging studies in rodents.

Even if we want to use D for its nootropic/neuroprotective effect(s) it is difficult to know which dose is effective.
D is everything but safe, because a small change of the dose makes it inherently dangerous, it is not even a nootropic per se. It's a drug - Ben is right. Whether it is benefical, worthless or detrimental has not been conclusively shown, so I'd take care. But maybe there are some encouraging studies in (healthy) people I'm not aware of.

Edited by kismet, 03 October 2008 - 07:28 PM.


#20 luv2increase

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Posted 03 October 2008 - 11:36 PM

D is everything but safe


I sincerely beg to differ ----> http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=24732

#21 kismet

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 12:04 AM

D is everything but safe


I sincerely beg to differ ----> http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=24732

I'll have a look at all the stuff later, thank you for posting it anyway. I don't want to end up arguing semantics, I'm just saying selegeline is more dangerous than the run off the mill supplements like piracetam for instance, which will not cause (many) side effects if you increase the dose tenfold or twentyfold, because as little as 10mg+ is associated with side-effects. I firmly believe that it should be rather safe if used correctly.
"Everything but safe" was maybe not a neutral way to put it.

Edited by kismet, 04 October 2008 - 12:07 AM.


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#22 luv2increase

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 01:47 AM

10mg+ is associated with side-effects.


There are no side-effects associated with 10+ milligrams. Where did you hear that from. There will only be negative side-effects if you eat tyramine rich foods because at 10+ selegiline may inhibit MAO-a as well. This is dealing with the neurotransmitter serotonin. If you inhibit MAO-a and eat tyramine rich foods, you may have a hypertensive crisis due to the "cheese effect". It is a standard warning on all MAO-a inhibitors that you must abide by dietary restrictions which basically say you can't eat foods high in tyramine.




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