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The Audacity of Fraud:


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#1 luv2increase

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Posted 01 October 2008 - 11:13 PM


Barack Obama writes a 5,000-word manifesto on "Renewing American leadership" in the current issue of Foreign Affairs. I was expecting fresh, bold new thinking-the audacity of liberalism. What I got instead was a Republican hawk in Kennedy clothing. If this is what we are to expect from the new generation of Democratic leaders, Bush's legacy has nothing to fear. It's writhing with life under a new guise. Call it neo-conservatism with a human face.

Obama's essay hits all the right tones: Optimism, ambition, hope, American exceptionalism. It's your basic stump-speech style. He brackets the piece in references to FDR, with a little Truman and JFK thrown in. He delivers the kind of lofty one- and two-liners designed to get applause at a political convention: "We must lead the world, by deed and by example." "The American moment is not over, but it must be seized anew." "Our global engagement cannot be defined by what we are against; it must be guided by a clear sense of what we stand for." But this is Foreign Affairs. He can skip the fawning and flattery, which sounds no different than standard-issue speechifying. Give us your program. But what little of it he does give beyond the high-minded rhetoric sounds, with a couple of exceptions, strangely stale and uncomfortably familiar. Obama is going out of his way to sound tough, nationalistic, and most of all, grown up. I've heard that urge before. We've been deafened by it for the last seven years by the current president and his inferiority complex................


http://www.commondre...2007/07/20/2648


There is a lot more. This is a critical analysis of Obama. So, if you want an un-biased view of Obama, you will read this. This guy also speaks very negatively to Bush.

Edited by luv2increase, 01 October 2008 - 11:14 PM.


#2 Lazarus Long

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Posted 01 October 2008 - 11:25 PM

Barack Obama writes a 5,000-word manifesto on "Renewing American leadership" in the current issue of Foreign Affairs. I was expecting fresh, bold new thinking-the audacity of liberalism. What I got instead was a Republican hawk in Kennedy clothing. If this is what we are to expect from the new generation of Democratic leaders, Bush's legacy has nothing to fear. It's writhing with life under a new guise. Call it neo-conservatism with a human face.


Actually it is called Neo-liberalism and most of the world is very familiar with it but Americans are woefully ignorant of basic modern sociopolitical trends and what they are called.

Oh and BTW, Kennedy was a hawk when he got into office and pretty much all during his very short period at the helm. He expanded the number of troops in Vietnam, removed the Secret Service guards from Diem precipitating his assassination and was backed by no less an icon of the conservative right-wing than his long time family friend, Joseph McCarthy.

As any student of global politics in Europe, Asia, or Latin American will attest to Neo-liberalism is not the same as conventional (pacifist) liberalism and is usually just considered *hegemonic* through the marketplace instead of with a gun.

#3 Iam Empathy

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 01:04 AM

http://www.commondre...2007/07/20/2648

This article is more than a year old.

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#4 Connor MacLeod

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 01:17 AM

http://www.commondre...2007/07/20/2648

This article is more than a year old.


Why does it matter if it is a year old? The question is whether or not the analysis has any validity or not. Or do you think Obama's views have changed so much over one year that the article is no longer relevant?

#5 luv2increase

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 01:21 AM

http://www.commondre...2007/07/20/2648

This article is more than a year old.



Oh my gosh Empathy. More than a year old huh? So does that mean it isn't relevant? Does that mean that Obama's 5,000 word manifesto "Renewing American Leadership" is not relevant because it hasn't been written in the last few weeks?

A little information Empathy for you is thus: a written work of anyone can be analyzed at the time the work was written or at a later date in time. It does not take any of the relevance out of the issue. I cannot believe you wrote this. A guy kills somebody a year ago. The guy doesn't get caught until today, October 1, 2008 for the murder. Would it be a good defense for the murderer to say, "oh, I killed that person a year ago. It doesn't matter anymore; it isn't relevant."

Seriously Empathy, you have the least educated, non-sense rebuttals I've ever seen. I can say this now with certainty based upon a collective analysis of all your posts and threads which you have made; you are not intelligent, and you never bring up anything relevant, and the points which you try to make are utterly ridiculous. The one you made here tops them all,

This article is more than a year old.

.


#6 maxwatt

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 01:25 AM

It does sound familiar. But then Obama is using John Kennedy's chief speechwriter, Ted Sorenson, who is now 79. The man does have a way with words.

#7 Iam Empathy

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 01:30 AM

now with certainty based upon a collective analysis of all your posts and threads which you have made; you are not intelligent, and you never bring up anything relevant, and the points which you try to make are utterly ridiculous. The one you made here tops them all


Your personal attacks do not affect me in the least. :)

Edited by Iam Empathy, 02 October 2008 - 01:33 AM.


#8 Lazarus Long

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 01:32 AM

Seriously Empathy, you have the least educated, non-sense rebuttals I've ever seen. I can say this now with certainty based upon a collective analysis of all your posts and threads which you have made; you are not intelligent, and you never bring up anything relevant, and the points which you try to make are utterly ridiculous. The one you made here tops them all,


Everybody needs to do their best to stop making this personal and I don't give a damn who started it.

This conduct has already gotten the politics forum issues taken off the active topics and it is about to get some of you censored directly. Stick to the topics and do not make it a discussion about each other.

#9 Iam Empathy

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 01:35 AM

Seriously Empathy, you have the least educated, non-sense rebuttals I've ever seen. I can say this now with certainty based upon a collective analysis of all your posts and threads which you have made; you are not intelligent, and you never bring up anything relevant, and the points which you try to make are utterly ridiculous. The one you made here tops them all,


Everybody needs to do their best to stop making this personal and I don't give a damn who started it.

This conduct has already gotten the politics forum issues taken off the active topics and it is about to get some of you censored directly. Stick to the topics and do not make it a discussion about each other.


Agreed. But that's usually how things go. When someone gets proved wrong, then they start making personal attacks. luv2increase seems to get proved wrong on a regular basis. So it sort of makes sense.

#10 luv2increase

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 01:36 AM

now with certainty based upon a collective analysis of all your posts and threads which you have made; you are not intelligent, and you never bring up anything relevant, and the points which you try to make are utterly ridiculous. The one you made here tops them all


Your personal attacks do not affect me in the least. :)



It is not a personal attack. It is the result analysis of the comprehensive review of all your posts and threads. It isn't my fault your arguments are weak. The proof is in the pudding. :)

luv2increase seems to get proved wrong on a regular basis.



Prove it. I'm waiting...

#11 Connor MacLeod

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 01:37 AM

It does sound familiar. But then Obama is using John Kennedy's chief speechwriter, Ted Sorenson, who is now 79. The man does have a way with words.


Interesting - I didn't know that. I actually heard on the news a while back (or maybe it was from one of my hippie friends) that Obama wrote all his own speeches (while feeding orphaned children and performing heart surgery at no charge on low income patients. :) )

#12 luv2increase

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 01:41 AM

It does sound familiar. But then Obama is using John Kennedy's chief speechwriter, Ted Sorenson, who is now 79. The man does have a way with words.


Interesting - I didn't know that. I actually heard on the news a while back (or maybe it was from one of my hippie friends) that Obama wrote all his own speeches (while feeding orphaned children and performing heart surgery at no charge on low income patients. :) )



:)

#13 RighteousReason

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 01:45 AM

Which is the greatest fraud in all of human history: global warming, or barack obama?

I think if Obama wins the election he wins the title. Otherwise, I think global warming still tops him out.

#14 RighteousReason

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 01:46 AM

Seriously Empathy, you have the least educated, non-sense rebuttals I've ever seen. I can say this now with certainty based upon a collective analysis of all your posts and threads which you have made; you are not intelligent, and you never bring up anything relevant, and the points which you try to make are utterly ridiculous. The one you made here tops them all,


Everybody needs to do their best to stop making this personal and I don't give a damn who started it.

This conduct has already gotten the politics forum issues taken off the active topics and it is about to get some of you censored directly. Stick to the topics and do not make it a discussion about each other.

d**che b*g.

Edited by Lazarus Long, 02 October 2008 - 02:05 AM.
Consider yourself the example. LL


#15 luv2increase

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 01:47 AM

http://www.commondre...2007/07/20/2648

This article is more than a year old.


Please elaborate on why you think this fact is of importance. Thank you Empathy.

#16 Iam Empathy

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 01:57 AM

http://www.commondre...2007/07/20/2648

This article is more than a year old.


Please elaborate on why you think this fact is of importance. Thank you Empathy.


You're sharing an opinion piece that someone wrote more than a year ago. When I post opinion pieces on John McCain, they're always recent pieces (< one month -- usually only one or two days old). The more recent opinion pieces will be more relevant to the current situation. The article that you posted was from before Barack Obama even ran against Hillary Clinton in the Democratic primaries! I think that a few things in the world have changed in the less one year and three months. I simply wished to point that small point out. I don't see anything wrong with making a note of that.

Edited by Iam Empathy, 02 October 2008 - 01:58 AM.


#17 biknut

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 04:09 AM

http://www.commondre...2007/07/20/2648


There is a lot more. This is a critical analysis of Obama. So, if you want an un-biased view of Obama, you will read this. This guy also speaks very negatively to Bush.


Reading this Tristam guys critique makes my head hurt. Most of what he is complaining about I would like, but liberals would hate. The problem is I can't understand how Obama would really think this way. Liberals here obviously don't believe it, and neither do I. More likely this is just Obama smoke designed to help him get elected. Based on Obama's past associations it's a lot more likely he believes in socialism, hating America, and hating white people. This is a man that is so liberal he believes in killing a aborted fetus born alive. I think his whole life is a lie, he's not a good person.

#18 maxwatt

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 12:11 PM

http://www.commondre...2007/07/20/2648


There is a lot more. This is a critical analysis of Obama. So, if you want an un-biased view of Obama, you will read this. This guy also speaks very negatively to Bush.


Reading this Tristam guys critique makes my head hurt. Most of what he is complaining about I would like, but liberals would hate. The problem is I can't understand how Obama would really think this way. Liberals here obviously don't believe it, and neither do I. More likely this is just Obama smoke designed to help him get elected. Based on Obama's past associations it's a lot more likely he believes in socialism, hating America, and hating white people. This is a man that is so liberal he believes in killing a aborted fetus born alive. I think his whole life is a lie, he's not a good person.


"Not to be a socialist at 20 is to have no heart. To be a socialist at forty is to have no head."

#19 Lazarus Long

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 12:20 PM

(maxwatt)
"Not to be a socialist at 20 is to have no heart. To be a socialist at forty is to have no head."


Ahhh another Churchill aficiando.

Basically Biknut you have mistakenly lumped liberals and neoliberals together in the same mistaken way many on the left tend to confuse the various shades of conservatism.

Clinton, Kennedy and now Obama are not classic liberals, they are classic neoliberals and neoliberals are still aggressively expansionist not isolationist like classic liberals and ironically classic conservatives.

The most profound difference between neoliberals and neoconservatives is that neoconservatives believe you project power militarily first and then back it up economically, and neoliberals believe you project power economically first and only back it up militarily after a diplomatic initiative fails.

Global market economists prefer a diplomatic lead supported by a strong military not the other way around.

Oh Max here is one for you that goes toward defining what a classic neoliberal is:

"Walk softly and carry a big stick".

#20 biknut

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 03:06 PM

(maxwatt)
"Not to be a socialist at 20 is to have no heart. To be a socialist at forty is to have no head."


Ahhh another Churchill aficiando.

Basically Biknut you have mistakenly lumped liberals and neoliberals together in the same mistaken way many on the left tend to confuse the various shades of conservatism.

Clinton, Kennedy and now Obama are not classic liberals, they are classic neoliberals and neoliberals are still aggressively expansionist not isolationist like classic liberals and ironically classic conservatives.


I don't think I'm confused about Democrats, I just use different terminology. I would call a neoliberal, a Traditional Democrat (blue dog), and Liberal Democrat, a Socialist, Communist, America hating, Modern Democrat. The later are the ones in control of the Democrat party at this time. I think it's about 65/35%.

Obama doesn't have the voting record of a Traditional Democrat. He's as liberal as it gets. He's just trying to hide that in order to get elected. If Obama gets elected and has a Democrat controlled congress, we're headed down a socialist rat hole faster than you can say Carl Marx.

When you look at the kind of people he was associated with growing up. The writers he idolized while in college. And the friends and associates he's been close to in his adult life, it's easy to see where he's coming from, and headed to. They are all crooks, America haters, and racists.

That's what I honestly believe.

#21 maxwatt

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 03:56 PM

(maxwatt)
"Not to be a socialist at 20 is to have no heart. To be a socialist at forty is to have no head."


Ahhh another Churchill aficiando.

Basically Biknut you have mistakenly lumped liberals and neoliberals together in the same mistaken way many on the left tend to confuse the various shades of conservatism.

Clinton, Kennedy and now Obama are not classic liberals, they are classic neoliberals and neoliberals are still aggressively expansionist not isolationist like classic liberals and ironically classic conservatives.

The most profound difference between neoliberals and neoconservatives is that neoconservatives believe you project power militarily first and then back it up economically, and neoliberals believe you project power economically first and only back it up militarily after a diplomatic initiative fails.

Global market economists prefer a diplomatic lead supported by a strong military not the other way around.

Oh Max here is one for you that goes toward defining what a classic neoliberal is:

"Walk softly and carry a big stick".


My god, but you have succinctly cut through the miasma. There are a other interesting differences between neoliberals (former Marxists?) and neoconservatives (former Trotkyites?) on domestic policy too. Strictly speaking, the father of Conservatism, Barry Goldwater, espoused beliefs that would have classified him as a Manchester Liberal in the preceding century. It would be more interesting to discuss and explain actual political categories instead of getting caught up in their rhetoric. Ideology puts blinders on a (wo)man's mind, and the slogans of the past are no substitute for disciplined thought about present problems. If we live as long as your fictional namesake, we will have to change our political views in ways we cannot now begin to imagine in order to survive.

I doubt the 20-40 aphorism was original to Churchill; no doubt there is a precedent in classic Latin.

#22 Zenob

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 03:59 PM

When I post opinion pieces on John McCain, they're always recent pieces

You kind of have to use the most current material you have with McCain. His opinions change every few seconds. if you use old material with him, it's almost assured to not be his current position. lol

His most current example of this I find hilarious. He isn't even making it through one statement without doing it. He'll start off blaming the democrats for the bailout mess, then he'll say it's not the time to be pointing fingers and assigning blame. People with Alzheimers can be funny. :)

#23 Lazarus Long

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 04:23 PM

I doubt the 20-40 aphorism was original to Churchill; no doubt there is a precedent in classic Latin.


Well I suspect as always Pliny the Elder or Plutarch can be attributed to the core sentiment but the term *socialist* had only been coined as a word during the previous one or two generations of Churchill's birth so I think *we* can safely suggest he is the true origin of the quote.

The ancient Romans or Greeks might have said something more akin to being a pacifist or I suspect Plato or Socrates of saying something akin to the same sentiment but with respect to *idealism*. In other words:

Not to be an *idealist* at 20 is to have no heart. To still be one at forty is to have no head

There are a other interesting differences between neoliberals (former Marxists?) and neoconservatives (former Trotkyites?) on domestic policy too


Actually I think neoconservatives of the libertarian vintage are really Leninist without the Marxism and neoliberals are probably more Trotskyist, hence their affinity for losing power and falling in love with strong, artistic, beautifully manly women. :)

#24 maxwatt

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 05:20 PM

I doubt the 20-40 aphorism was original to Churchill; no doubt there is a precedent in classic Latin.


Well I suspect as always Pliny the Elder or Plutarch can be attributed to the core sentiment but the term *socialist* had only been coined as a word during the previous one or two generations of Churchill's birth so I think *we* can safely suggest he is the true origin of the quote.

The ancient Romans or Greeks might have said something more akin to being a pacifist or I suspect Plato or Socrates of saying something akin to the same sentiment but with respect to *idealism*. In other words:

Not to be an *idealist* at 20 is to have no heart. To still be one at forty is to have no head

There are a other interesting differences between neoliberals (former Marxists?) and neoconservatives (former Trotkyites?) on domestic policy too


Actually I think neoconservatives of the libertarian vintage are really Leninist without the Marxism and neoliberals are probably more Trotskyist, hence their affinity for losing power and falling in love with strong, artistic, beautifully manly women. :)


I could live with that. Where do I sign up?

PS: I did say "precedent", the exact quote is no doubt Winston "blood, tears, toil and sweat" Churchill.

Edited by maxwatt, 02 October 2008 - 05:22 PM.


#25 inawe

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 06:49 PM

(maxwatt)
"Not to be a socialist at 20 is to have no heart. To be a socialist at forty is to have no head."


Ahhh another Churchill aficiando.

May be Churchill did say it. But then he was quoting Otto von Bismarck. It wasn't out of character for Churchill to admire Bismarck.
There are many examples of socialists who didn't have a head. A prominent one is Albert Einstein.
In Great Britain liberal refers to a certain position in economic matters. It's laissez-faire but with gentleman's rules. For example, The Economist often calls itself liberal.
In the US it started as a synonym of progressive (as opposed to reactionary). Later on, reactionaries managed to give the word liberal
a pejorative connotation. The same with socialism. Since it caught on in the general population, it makes it impossible to adopt some common
sense policies. Like having a National health service like the rest of the industrialized world.

#26 Iam Empathy

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Posted 05 October 2008 - 02:30 AM

http://www.johnmccainrecord.com/

#27 Iam Empathy

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 11:00 PM

http://www.mclobbyist.com/

#28 luv2increase

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Posted 07 October 2008 - 02:21 AM

http://www.johnmccainrecord.com/


http://www.mclobbyist.com/



I think you need to be banned from posting. It is getting quite absurd empathy. If you can't find anything to say of substance, please refrain from posting.

I sincerely don't appreciate you coming in and trolling my threads with your irrelevant rhetoric. Have some respect why don't you.

Edited by luv2increase, 07 October 2008 - 02:22 AM.


#29 Michael

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Posted 07 October 2008 - 03:02 PM

Barack Obama writes a 5,000-word manifesto on "Renewing American leadership" in the current issue of Foreign Affairs. I was expecting fresh, bold new thinking-the audacity of liberalism. What I got instead was a Republican hawk in Kennedy clothing. If this is what we are to expect from the new generation of Democratic leaders, Bush's legacy has nothing to fear. It's writhing with life under a new guise. Call it neo-conservatism with a human face.


Actually it is called Neo-liberalism and most of the world is very familiar with it but Americans are woefully ignorant of basic modern sociopolitical trends and what they are called...
As any student of global politics in Europe, Asia, or Latin American will attest to Neo-liberalism is not the same as conventional (pacifist) liberalism and is usually just considered *hegemonic* through the marketplace instead of with a gun.

Actually, neoliberalism and neoconservatism are two distinct philosophies, with different spheres of interest, and though arguably many present-day neocons are also neoliberals, and the essayist is arguing (somewhat strainedly) that some of Obama's rhetoric is neoconservative in outlook -- but is not suggesting that he's neoliberal. Neoliberalism is a return to pre-Keynes, pre-FDR, old-style laissez-faire economic policy, with some tweaks, which no one would argue is reflected in Obama's platform or record; neoconservatism refers to advocating the use of American power (and especially military power) to project American values and interests around the world, and one can see how one could build a ghost of a case for that whenever someone advocates for American involvement in world affairs.

Neoconservatism was originally a novel development within the political left: liberals (former Trotskyites in many cases) who had been disgusted with the Left's coddling of Stalinism and other repressive but 'leftist' regimes, and with a generalized antiwar position in the 60s, advocating instead muscular intervention in world affairs to break the backs of repressive regimes. More recent persons to whom the 'neocon' label has been applied (such as the major advocates and architects of the second Iraq war) seem to have much less sincerely altruistic motivations, and clearly were in no way political liberals/progressives.

#30 Lazarus Long

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Posted 07 October 2008 - 03:58 PM

Actually, neoliberalism and neoconservatism are two distinct philosophies, with different spheres of interest, and though arguably many present-day neocons are also neoliberals, and the essayist is arguing (somewhat strainedly) that some of Obama's rhetoric is neoconservative in outlook -- but is not suggesting that he's neoliberal.


I said neoliberalism and neoconservativism are two distinct ideologies as well.

What we disagree on is the idea of the policies of Clinton, Kennedy, and Obama to be more consistent with neoliberal doctrine than what most people identify as simply liberal.

The author does not refer to neoliberalism at all and what the author has done is accuse Obama of adopting the aspects of neoconservatism that appear at first blush to be really neoliberal aspects that overlap neoconservatism.

That is why I brought it into the discussion.

(Michael)

Neoconservatism was originally a novel development within the political left: liberals (former Trotskyites in many cases) who had been disgusted with the Left's coddling of Stalinism and other repressive but 'leftist' regimes, and with a generalized antiwar position in the 60s, advocating instead muscular intervention in world affairs to break the backs of repressive regimes. More recent persons to whom the 'neocon' label has been applied (such as the major advocates and architects of the second Iraq war) seem to have much less sincerely altruistic motivations, and clearly were in no way political liberals/progressives.


This is historically true but not a reality since the late 80's as the mantle of neoconservative was shouldered by the present leaders, like Richard Perle and Robert Kagan as opposed to the original architects like Leo Strauss, and Irving Kystol who begat William, who begat the PNAC.

http://en.wikipedia....Neoconservatism
Neoconservatism (or Neocon) is a right-wing political philosophy that emerged in the United States from the rejection of the social liberalism, moral relativism, and New Left counterculture of the 1960s. In United States, they align themselves with most conservative values, such as free market, limited welfare, and traditional cultural values. Their key distinction is on international affairs: they prefer a proactive approach internationally that would protect the national interests.

The term neoconservative was originally used as a criticism against liberals who had "moved to the right".[1][2] Michael Harrington, a democratic socialist, coined the usage of neoconservative in a 1973 Dissent magazine article concerning welfare policy.[3] According to E. J. Dionne, the nascent neoconservatives were driven by "the notion that liberalism" had failed and "no longer knew what it was talking about."[4]

The first major neoconservative to embrace the term and considered its founder is Irving Kristol, father of William Kristol, who would become the founder of the neoconservative Project for the New American Century, and wrote of his neoconservative views in the 1979 article "Confessions of a True, Self-Confessed 'Neoconservative.'"[1] Kristol's ideas had been influential since the 1950s, when he co-founded and edited Encounter magazine.[5] Another source was Norman Podhoretz, editor of Commentary magazine from 1960 to 1995. By 1982 Podhoretz was calling himself a neoconservative, in a New York Times Magazine article titled "The Neoconservative Anguish over Reagan's Foreign Policy".[6][7] The Reagan Doctrine was considered anti-Communist and in opposition to Soviet Union global influence and considered central to American foreign policy until the end of the Cold War, shortly before Bill Clinton became president of the United States. Neoconservative influence on American foreign policy later became central with the Bush Doctrine.


As opposed to neoliberals, who have never worn the mantle willingly.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Neoliberalism
Originally coined by its critics and opponents, "neoliberalism" is a label referring to the recent reemergence of economic liberalism or classical liberalism among political and economic scholars and policy-makers. The label is usually used by people who oppose liberalism; proponents usually describe themselves simply as "liberals".

Liberalism supports free markets, free trade, and decentralized decision-making. Liberalism of world's countries can be measured on economic freedom indices. Higher economic freedom correlates strongly with higher living standards, self-reported happiness, and peace.






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