20 replies to this topic

[unbreakable]

After I have tried many many drugs for my Social Phobia and Dysthemia to no avail I now consider Nardil (phenelzine) - the holy grail of SP-treatment in combination with clonazepam which is considered a very very effective treatment. Problem is I would have to follow a special MAOI-diet and probably give up most of my supplements/herbs as they might interact with the Nardil and produce a hypertensive crisis or serotonin syndrome. Giving up Supplements and maybe a few years of his life in order to "get a life"? Difficult decission.

Edited by unbreakable, 02 October 2008 - 06:53 AM.

[wayside]

Clearly you are unsatisfied with the life you have now, so if the drugs improve your life with no nasty side effects it seems like a good trade-off to me.

[luv2increase]

Clearly you are unsatisfied with the life you have now, so if the drugs improve your life with no nasty side effects it seems like a good trade-off to me.

Extremely good and valid point wayside. unbreakable, good luck and don't forget your multi-vitamin and cal/mag supplements at least.

[thefirstimmortal]

After I have tried many many drugs for my Social Phobia and Dysthemia to no avail I now consider Nardil (phenelzine) - the holy grail of SP-treatment in combination with clonazepam which is considered a very very effective treatment. Problem is I would have to follow a special MAOI-diet and probably give up most of my supplements/herbs as they might interact with the Nardil and produce a hypertensive crisis or serotonin syndrome. Giving up Supplements and maybe a few years of his life in order to "get a life"? Difficult decission.

I don't know what my opinion is worth, but better to have a happy life, one worth living for. Future advances in science may give you back those years you think you may lose at the tail end.
Live Long and Well

[thefirstimmortal]

Clearly you are unsatisfied with the life you have now, so if the drugs improve your life with no nasty side effects it seems like a good trade-off to me.

Hey, how are you wayside.

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[niner]

After I have tried many many drugs for my Social Phobia and Dysthemia to no avail I now consider Nardil (phenelzine) - the holy grail of SP-treatment in combination with clonazepam which is considered a very very effective treatment. Problem is I would have to follow a special MAOI-diet and probably give up most of my supplements/herbs as they might interact with the Nardil and produce a hypertensive crisis or serotonin syndrome. Giving up Supplements and maybe a few years of his life in order to "get a life"? Difficult decission.

First off, I'd go for the decent life now. But I think you are going overboard on the need to give up most of your supps. What are you taking, anyway? Mostly noots? What would be wrong with Vit. D, Mag, Fish Oil, Lipoic Acid, Resveratrol, Pomegranate, ALCAR, Carnosine...? (Carnosine at least contains a primary amine, but is it metabolized by MAO? Would it matter?) My gut sense of it is that most supps that are actually going to help you live longer (and that's a whole debate in itself) will not present problems. Noots are another story.

Here's an excerpt from the package insert:

The potentiation of sympathomimetic substances and related compounds by MAO inhibitors may result in hypertensive crises (see WARNINGS). Therefore, patients being treated with NARDIL should not take sympathomimetic drugs (including amphetamines, cocaine, methylphenidate, dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine) or related compounds (including methyldopa, L-dopa, L-tryptophan, L-tyrosine, and phenylalanine). Hypertensive crises during NARDIL therapy may also be caused by the ingestion of foods with a high concentration of tyramine or dopamine. Therefore, patients being treated with NARDIL should avoid high protein food that has undergone protein breakdown by aging, fermentation, pickling, smoking, or bacterial contamination. Patients should also avoid cheeses (especially aged varieties), pickled herring, beer, wine, liver, yeast extract (including brewer’s yeast in large quantities), dry sausage (including Genoa salami, hard salami, pepperoni, and Lebanon bologna), pods of broad beans (fava beans), and yogurt. Excessive amounts of caffeine and chocolate may also cause hypertensive reactions.

Looks like foods might present more trouble than LE supps. No beer? (aaaghh!) No picked herring? (just shoot me.) I have to admit it's a messy drug.

[unbreakable]

I have to admit it's a messy drug.

But also a very powerful one that can help even when most modern drugs have failed (escpecially in Social Phobia, Dysthemia and Avoidant Personality Disorder). An SSRI is a scalpel, a MAOI is a broadsword.

Things like EPA/DHA, Multivitamin, Lipoic Acid, NAC and so on shouldn't be a problem. But herbs like Resveratrol, Green tea extract... could be problematic, many herbs have effects on neurotranismitter levels, not just St. John's Wort.

[rwac]

Have you tried taking larger doses of Zinc ?

Just a thought. you seem to be taking lots of herbs and advanced chemicals,
while not taking very many vitamins/minerals.

Have you considered you might have pyroluria ?

[wayside]

Hey, how are you wayside.

Doin' alright.

Therefore, patients being treated with NARDIL should avoid high protein food that has undergone protein breakdown by aging, fermentation, pickling, smoking, or bacterial contamination. Patients should also avoid cheeses (especially aged varieties), pickled herring, beer, wine, liver, yeast extract (including brewer’s yeast in large quantities), dry sausage (including Genoa salami, hard salami, pepperoni, and Lebanon bologna), pods of broad beans (fava beans), and yogurt. Excessive amounts of caffeine and chocolate may also cause hypertensive reactions.

Personally, I can live contentedly without ever getting to eat pickled herring or liver. In fact, except for cheese, wine and a little beer now and then I don't really eat anything on this list, 'course this isn't about me is it.

As far as supps, maybe try re-introducing them one by one starting with really small amounts and working your way up to a regular dose and see if it has any negative effects. Or is this too dangerous?

[cyborgdreamer]

Stress is terrible for your health. If the MAOI reduces your stress, it may, to some extent, negate the longevity cost of giving up the supplements.

[StrangeAeons]

I would very much suggest you medicate your problem first, worrying about supplements later; and though I don't think you need to cut them all out, erring on the side of caution will probably be in your best interest when it comes to life extension. One itty bitty recommendation, though. If you have to take a benzodiazepene like Clonopin, only take it p.r.n. (as needed). Taking benzos on a daily basis makes you develop rapid tolerance, and lowers your natural seizure threshold; I think the only reason they still prescribe them like that is because of the placebo effect.

[yoyo]

I would recommend getting on the maoi. The only things i stopped taking when i started tranylcypromine were some herbal extractions, like bacopa and ashwaghadha, because it is not really known what all is in them. I still take a number of noots and supplements.

[yoyo]

And social stress and isolation have profound negative effects on lifespan.

[edward]

unbreakable,

First off if you are turning to an MAOI like nardil (maoi a and b) I am assuming you have tried many other pharmaceutical options. As you know the classic MAOI are broad spectrum treatments and at present not even first or second line treatments. I'd like to know what you have tried and what the effects were as there are other unconventional options that may just do the trick without having to go the MAOI route.

If you are still dead set on an MAOI then:

While its true the classic MAOI require a strict low tyramine diet and also being very careful with supplements and OTC meds that can effect norepinephrine, serotonin etc. there are as you and niner mentioned a lot of supplements that are perfectly fine to take. Even things such as Resveratrol which I agree might be a problem, might not be a problem. I would approach things this way.

-First type out a list of everything on your current anti-aging regimine. Put a star next to everything you are sure is safe (vitamin d, fish oil, lipoic acid etc etc) next post that list and ask for the groups feedback.

-Then once a final list has been made begin that regimine while on the MAOI then you might consider adding in questionable things ONE AT A TIME (resveratrol, curcumin, whatever) first at low doses then at your normal doses (and keep on your normal dose of this one and only questionable substance for a week or so) and see how you react, you will need to take your Blood Pressure and Heartrate regularly. Obviously DO NOT add in things that are obviously a problem just to see if you might be able to handle them.

[unbreakable]

Have you tried taking larger doses of Zinc ?

Not really, just the amount in my multivitamin. What is Zinc supposed to do for mood?

pyroluria

No, didn't even know what that is. It seems to be a bit too unscientifically.

As far as supps, maybe try re-introducing them one by one starting with really small amounts and working your way up to a regular dose and see if it has any negative effects. Or is this too dangerous?

If I start with a low dose it should be safe. I mean, none of my supplements is MDMA.

Stress is terrible for your health. If the MAOI reduces your stress, it may, to some extent, negate the longevity cost of giving up the supplements.

Good point.

One itty bitty recommendation, though. If you have to take a benzodiazepene like Clonopin, only take it p.r.n. (as needed). Taking benzos on a daily basis makes you develop rapid tolerance, and lowers your natural seizure threshold;

I take Clonazepam for 8 weeks, then substitute it with an equivalent dose of Phenobarbital for 2 weeks, 1 week off and then I start Clonazepam again. I never had tolerance/dependence issues that way.

I would recommend getting on the maoi. The only things i stopped taking when i started tranylcypromine were some herbal extractions, like bacopa and ashwaghadha, because it is not really known what all is in them. I still take a number of noots and supplements.

Did the Tranylcypromine help you? Phenelzine also raises GABA-levels so it might be a better choice for people with anxiety, but the action on GABA might also be the reason for weight gain people get more often on Phenelzine than on Tranylcypromine.

First off if you are turning to an MAOI like nardil (maoi a and b) I am assuming you have tried many other pharmaceutical options. As you know the classic MAOI are broad spectrum treatments and at present not even first or second line treatments. I'd like to know what you have tried and what the effects were as there are other unconventional options that may just do the trick without having to go the MAOI route.

I tried several SSRIs and two SNRIs (augmented with Bupropion or Modafinil), Gabapentin, Pregabalin, Topiramate, Zyprexa (bad choice I know), Xanax, Klonopin, Metoprolol and was prescribed other drugs I forgot the names of. The SSRIs did help a little bit with mood but not with anxiety. Benzos alone left me unmotivated and careless. The other drugs did nothing for me. I self-medicated with GHB/GBL and got addicted (went into delirium tremens and had to be heavily sedated on the ICU), but haven't taken it for years. I developed drinking problems, which are now controlled with anti-craving-agents (topiramate, naltrexone, low dose ondansetron). I am reading much about Ibogaine right now as it seems to be a great drug to help with addictions by raising GDNF (of course I would never mix it with any other drug especially MAOIs). I have also tried Supplements like Valerian/Theanine and Picamilon by the way.

-First type out a list of everything on your current anti-aging regimine. Put a star next to everything you are sure is safe (vitamin d, fish oil, lipoic acid etc etc) next post that list and ask for the groups feedback.

I will create that list.

[rwac]

Have you tried taking larger doses of Zinc ?

Not really, just the amount in my multivitamin. What is Zinc supposed to do for mood?

Zinc is necessary for SOD. It's also pretty good for adrenal support.
Plus, men lose a fair amount of zinc in semen.

I have a mild version of social stress. Zinc makes me more outgoing and active.
Take 30-60 mg of zinc for a few days and see if it helps.

[Harry777]

As mentioned above. Pyroluria is a very real condition. I should know as I suffer from it. It took me 8 years to work out what was wrong with me and what caused all my symptoms. I would highly recommend getting tested for it. The test is pretty simple i.e. pee in a cup.

Every single symptom has been cured:

• Depression
• Anxiety
• Fatigue
• Digestive issues

I'm just a normal functional human being now, rather than the non-functional person I used to be.

Anyway, I blog about life with Pyroluria now at: http://pyrolurialife.com

[Luminosity]

I think you should try talk therapy. The Psychology Today website was listings of therapists by area.

It's striking how many people here have "social phobia." It didn't used to be that way. I think it's how we are as a society. I'm not at all sure the cure is in a pill bottle.

Edited by Luminosity, 27 April 2012 - 04:14 AM.

[smithx]

Problem is I would have to follow a special MAOI-diet and probably give up most of my supplements/herbs as they might interact with the Nardil and produce a hypertensive crisis or serotonin syndrome.

Do NOT take Nardil.

A close friend of mine died when she ate mushrooms or something (it was never determined exactly what) by accident while on Nardil and had sudden extreme hypertension producing a cerebral hemorrhage.

The risks are just not worth it!

For social phobia, try propranolol. It definitely works and does not have the horrible, potentially fatal, side effects. There is also evidence that the anxiety will decrease over time with propranolol treatment, so it may not be necessary after a while.

[bsmith86]

Try moringa leaves and zija juice. I heard it’s very energetic and give purpose to life. I am drinking this juice since a year and really my all depression problem went away.

[Brett Black]

And social stress and isolation have profound negative effects on lifespan.

Do you have any evidence to back up those claims?