75 replies to this topic

[RighteousReason]

Obama's Magic
By Kimberley Strassel

And now, America, we introduce the Great Obama! The world's most gifted political magician! A thing of wonder. A thing of awe. Just watch him defy politics, economics, even gravity! (And hold your applause until the end, please.)

To kick off our show tonight, Mr. Obama will give 95% of American working families a tax cut, even though 40% of Americans today don't pay income taxes! How can our star enact such mathemagic? How can he "cut" zero? Abracadabra! It's called a "refundable tax credit." It involves the federal government taking money from those who do pay taxes, and writing checks to those who don't. Yes, yes, in the real world this is known as "welfare," but please try not to ruin the show.

read more ...

(from Neal Boortz)

[Zenob]

Obama's Magic
By Kimberley Strassel

And now, America, we introduce the Great Obama! The world's most gifted political magician! A thing of wonder. A thing of awe. Just watch him defy politics, economics, even gravity! (And hold your applause until the end, please.)

To kick off our show tonight, Mr. Obama will give 95% of American working families a tax cut, even though 40% of Americans today don't pay income taxes! How can our star enact such mathemagic? How can he "cut" zero? Abracadabra! It's called a "refundable tax credit." It involves the federal government taking money from those who do pay taxes, and writing checks to those who don't. Yes, yes, in the real world this is known as "welfare," but please try not to ruin the show.

read more ...

(from Neal Boortz)

You really should try getting your information from more then just right wing sources. Haven't I already debunked this "40% of Americans don't pay taxes nonsense" once already?

You want to see who is REALLY not paying their taxes? Here ya go:

Nearly two-thirds of U.S. companies and 68% of foreign corporations do not pay federal income taxes, according to a congressional report released Tuesday. The Government Accountability Office (GAO) examined samples of corporate tax returns filed between 1998 and 2005. In that time period, an annual average of 1.3 million U.S. companies and 39,000 foreign companies doing business in the United States paid no income taxes - despite having a combined $2.5 trillion in revenue.
Link

How's that for some perspective?

[RighteousReason]

The Perfect Stranger
By Charles Krauthammer

Barack Obama is an immensely talented man whose talents have been largely devoted to crafting, and chronicling, his own life. Not things. Not ideas. Not institutions. But himself.

read more...

(from Neal Boortz)

[biknut]

Obama's Magic
By Kimberley Strassel

Mr. Obama will give 95% of American working families a tax cut, even though 40% of Americans today don't pay income taxes! How can our star enact such mathemagic? How can he "cut" zero? Abracadabra! It's called a "refundable tax credit." It involves the federal government taking money from those who do pay taxes, and writing checks to those who don't. Yes, yes, in the real world this is known as "welfare,"
read more ...

(from Neal Boortz)

Yes this is true, 40% don't pay taxes, but what they're talking about is Federal income taxes. When you make less than a certain amount you don't have to pay income taxes even though you do have a job. You do however still to pay SS tax, sales tax, property tax, and other taxes.

Even so, it's ridicules to believe 95% of tax payers will get a tax cut. Anyone that believes that isn't thinking about it objectively. There's not enough rich people even if you confiscate all there earnings, to pay enough taxes to give 95% of tax payers a tax cut unless you're talking about increasing the deficit about a trillion dollars over 4 years. Oh yeah I forgot, he is.

It might not be so bad paying higher taxes though, because the way things are going these dollars we'll be paying with will be worth zero anyway.


No BO

[Zenob]

Obama's Magic
By Kimberley Strassel

Mr. Obama will give 95% of American working families a tax cut, even though 40% of Americans today don't pay income taxes! How can our star enact such mathemagic? How can he "cut" zero? Abracadabra! It's called a "refundable tax credit." It involves the federal government taking money from those who do pay taxes, and writing checks to those who don't. Yes, yes, in the real world this is known as "welfare,"
read more ...

(from Neal Boortz)

Yes this is true, 40% don't pay taxes, but what they're talking about is Federal income taxes. When you make less than a certain amount you don't have to pay income taxes even though you do have a job. You do however still to pay SS tax, sales tax, property tax, and other taxes.

Even so, it's ridicules to believe 95% of tax payers will get a tax cut. Anyone that believes that isn't thinking about it objectively. There's not enough rich people even if you confiscate all there earnings, to pay enough taxes to give 95% of tax payers a tax cut unless you're talking about increasing the deficit about a trillion dollars over 4 years. Oh yeah I forgot, he is.

It might not be so bad paying higher taxes though, because the way things are going these dollars we'll be paying with will be worth zero anyway.


No BO

No, what they are doing is including NON-FILERS to make the number look bigger. This is what they've always done. If you want the number of people not paying taxes to look really big, just include EVERYONE. Whether they have a job or not or whether they are 90 or 9. I can't believe you guys fall for this crap.

[biknut]

No, what they are doing is including NON-FILERS to make the number look bigger. This is what they've always done. If you want the number of people not paying taxes to look really big, just include EVERYONE. Whether they have a job or not or whether they are 90 or 9. I can't believe you guys fall for this crap.

With all due respect, your wrong. 30 million tax payers don't make enough money to pay federal income taxes. They do however pay SS tax. You can't get get out of that no matter how little you make.

[Lazarus Long]

No, what they are doing is including NON-FILERS to make the number look bigger. This is what they've always done. If you want the number of people not paying taxes to look really big, just include EVERYONE. Whether they have a job or not or whether they are 90 or 9. I can't believe you guys fall for this crap.

This is true and I have heard a few economists deconstruct this aspect. Those that support Obama generally concede that the end result is only about 80 to 85% of tax payers would then end up with a tax cut and those that are against him but professional admit at least 75 to 80% would still receive a tax cut. All economists agree that the majority would still receive a tax cut however and depending where you draw the line for what constitutes a middle class income, will depend on how beneficial it is to the recipient.

Dem's tend to draw a lower standard to define middle class and Pub's tend to include millionaires as middle class.

BTW one point about taxing the elderly, there are taxes on social security income too, which is a little like "robbing Peter to pay Paul."

http://law.freeadvic...benefit_tax.htm
Taxation of social security benefits is based upon combined income of both you and your spouse (if you have a spouse)- as calculated by adding your adjusted gross income plus nontaxable interest earned plus one-half of your social security benefits.

If you file a federal income tax return as an individual with a combined income between $25,000 and $34,000 - 50% of your social security benefits are subject to income tax. If your combined income exceeds $34.00 - 85% of your social security benefits are subject to income tax.

If you and your spouse file a joint income tax return - 50% of your social security benefits are subject to income tax if your combined income is between $32,000 and $44,000. If your combined income exceeds $44,000 - 85% of your social security benefits are subject to income tax.

And a 9 year old is required to pay taxes if they meet income guidelines too. This is true for many *middle class* juveniles even if many do not realize it. When their parents assign assets to them in order to reduce their own exposure to taxes the tax liability goes to the juvenile at a lower taxable rate but is still required to be paid.

[Lazarus Long]

(Zenob @ 10-Oct 2008, 11:04 AM) *
No, what they are doing is including NON-FILERS to make the number look bigger. This is what they've always done. If you want the number of people not paying taxes to look really big, just include EVERYONE. Whether they have a job or not or whether they are 90 or 9. I can't believe you guys fall for this crap.

With all due respect, your wrong. 30 million tax payers don't make enough money to pay federal income taxes. They do however pay SS tax. You can't get get out of that no matter how little you make.

Biknut 30 million is still less than 10% of the total population and far less than 20% of the total tax paying population. When you add all the amounts of revenue involved the amount reflected by those populations is dwarfed astronomically by the amounts being diverted offshore by corps and the wealthy to avoid taxation and also by the amount that is waived due to loopholes in the tax codes.

The issue is not just who gets a cut, but how much, who pays the difference, and how. So far what has been happening is that the vast majority of the most recent tax cuts were actually funded by the lower half of the tax roles losing income and paying more.

[forever freedom]

The Perfect Stranger
By Charles Krauthammer

Barack Obama is an immensely talented man whose talents have been largely devoted to crafting, and chronicling, his own life. Not things. Not ideas. Not institutions. But himself.

read more...

(from Neal Boortz)

You gotta give him that, at least

[Lazarus Long]

Let's also be clear (and we probably should discuss this aspect separately) the bankrupting of this nation (and the global marketplace) began with the Iraq war and was predicted by the Secretary of the treasury at that time, Paul O'Neill who was forced from office for telling the truth about costs and deficits.

Also let's be clear on another point, this response by the Bush administration was *popular* and in a more sinister aspect, was expected by al Qaeda. This administration has not done anything that the enemy did not expect or even hope for. We have been shooting ourselves in order to hit our opponents. Our own economy and the global one too, were not just collateral damage, it was the primary intended target from the beginning for the enemy, hence the symbolism of the World Trade Towers.

The trick from their side was to figure out how to get us to start a panic and trample ourselves. They never really thought they could beat us in the battlefield but they did think we would undermine ourselves through our own hubris.

Ever hear the phrase "Being penny wise pound foolish"?

The pound in this case refers to the British pound sterling and the idea is that in order to earn a nickle you spend a dollar.

The point is that even in much of the current debate and throughout this administration's economic policy, they have demonstrated a consistent disregard for fiscal responsibility and now the chickens are coming home to roost. They have fought a war with no regard to the importance of economy as the ultimate supply line, how critical it was to truly understand your enemy BEFORE engagement and how it takes diplomacy to not only prevent or end the war but ultimately to win it.

[biknut]

If you include Non Filers with tax payers that would be all 300 million people in America. A non filer isn't a tax payer. I've never heard anyone say 40% of Americans don't pay income taxes. What they're saying is 40% of TAX PAYERS don't pay income taxes.

According to Wikipedia there were about 138 million taxpayers in the United States in 2007. As we can see, more than half of Americans don't pay Federal taxes. Out of the 138 million that do, 40% don't pay income taxes.

[biknut]

Wikipedia is estimating about 33% don't pay income taxes.

As of 2007, there are about 138 million taxpayers in the United States,[8] including many who pay zero income tax,[9] estimated to about a third of all tax filers.

http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States

[RighteousReason]

the bankrupting of this nation (and the global marketplace) began with the Iraq war

False.

Things go way, way back before that. There is/was clearly a fundamental flaw in our credit system. Money was loaned to people who could not pay it back. This was largely championed, pushed, bullied, fought for, and created by, democrats from Jimmy Carter to Bill Clinton and especially Barack Obama. The republicans, particularly George W. Bush and John McCain, have predicted this exact crisis and have attempted to actually correct it in the past, only to be defeated along party-line votes by the democrats.

I do agree that the Iraq war was a financial mistake, and the republicans, especially George W. Bush, have essentially become fiscal socialists (though not in the worst ways that the democrats have become). Which certainly hasn't helped.

Edited by Savage, 10 October 2008 - 06:48 PM.

[Lazarus Long]

the bankrupting of this nation (and the global marketplace) began with the Iraq war and was predicted by the Secretary of the treasury at that time

False.

Things go way, way back before that. There is/was clearly a fundamental flaw in our credit system. Money was loaned to those without credit. This was largely championed, pushed, bullied, fought for, and created by, democrats from Jimmy Carter to Bill Clinton and especially Barack Obama. The republicans, particularly George W. Bush and John McCain, have predicted this exact crisis and have attempted to actually correct it in the past, only to be defeated along party-line votes by the democrats.

I do agree that the Iraq war was a financial mistake, and the republicans, especially George W. Bush, have essentially become fiscal socialists (though not in the worst ways that the democrats have become)

Let me clarify. You are correct that many of the problems can be traced to Reagan, Bush Sr. as well as Democrat Presidents, and legislatures of both parties however the straw that broke the camels back, the push that knocked down the house of cards, the spark that lit the fuse, can all be traced back to this president and the republican controlled legislature that he began office with.

When this war began the Republicans controlled both houses and the White House, the nation was still riding on a budget surplus inherited from Clinton who worked with a more traditional, fiscally conservative Republican controlled legislature that had worked together in a bipartisan manner to create that surplus, and a Secretary of the Treasury that was more professional, responsible, and honest than they deserved or wanted. When they didn't like the truth they fired the messenger and now we are all paying the piper.

The fragility has been there for some time and that is why many of us have been making warnings to no avail. That is also why you are correct to point out that many problems go much farther back but denying the vulnerability existed at all, and ignoring the ramifications of being wrong, especially by this administration but also America as a whole, are what got us into the mess we find ourselves in now.

[RighteousReason]

the bankrupting of this nation (and the global marketplace) began with the Iraq war and was predicted by the Secretary of the treasury at that time

False.

Things go way, way back before that. There is/was clearly a fundamental flaw in our credit system. Money was loaned to those without credit. This was largely championed, pushed, bullied, fought for, and created by, democrats from Jimmy Carter to Bill Clinton and especially Barack Obama. The republicans, particularly George W. Bush and John McCain, have predicted this exact crisis and have attempted to actually correct it in the past, only to be defeated along party-line votes by the democrats.

I do agree that the Iraq war was a financial mistake, and the republicans, especially George W. Bush, have essentially become fiscal socialists (though not in the worst ways that the democrats have become)

1. the straw the broke the camels back, the push that knocked down the house of cards, the spark that lit the fuse

2. but denying the vulnerability existed at all ... are what got us into the mess we find ourselves in now.

1. any sources? (then again maybe I shouldn't ask )
2. agreed... I'm assuming you aren't suggesting that I was denying the vulnerability that I just spelled out?

[Lazarus Long]

1. any sources? (then again maybe I shouldn't ask tung.gif)
2. agreed... I'm assuming you aren't suggesting that I was denying the vulnerability that I just spelled out?

1. Sure but until I or others return with links in the meantime history, and of course I can provide multiple examples of economic predictions by some on both sides but also one I am sure you will ignore like, Robert Reich and as I already pointed out Paul O'Neill in testimony before both houses of congress and in his book, The Price of Loyalty.

I know this is a difficult pill to swallow but he was a Republican appointed by this Republican Administration and approved by a Republican controlled legislature, who was fired when he brought dire warnings to congress about the potential economic repercussions for starting the Iraq war.

2. I didn't say you were ignoring the vulnerabilities. I am saying you are ignoring and absolving by default or distraction, the arsonist who actually lit the fire that is getting out of control by claiming the Democrats created the gasoline used.

Ironically you are blaming the factory for the car the drunk driver killed with and denying the importance of the drunken behavior by blaming the bar tender, the bar, and the distiller.

I assume the irony of this doesn't escape you either.

[RighteousReason]

1. any sources? (then again maybe I shouldn't ask tung.gif)
2. agreed... I'm assuming you aren't suggesting that I was denying the vulnerability that I just spelled out?

1. Sure but until I or others return with links in the meantime history, and of course I can provide multiple examples of economic predictions by some on both sides but also one I am sure you will ignore like, Robert Reich and as I already pointed out Paul O'Neill in testimony before both houses of congress and in his book, The Price of Loyalty.

I know this is a difficult pill to swallow but he was a Republican appointed by this Republican Administration and approved by a Republican controlled legislature, who was fired when he brought dire warnings to congress about the potential economic repercussions for starting the Iraq war.

2. I didn't say you were ignoring the vulnerabilities. I am saying you are ignoring and absolving by default or distraction, the arsonist who actually lit the fire that is getting out of control by claiming the Democrats created the gasoline used.

Ironically you are blaming the factory for the car the drunk driver killed with and denying the importance of the drunken behavior by blaming the bar tender, the bar, and the distiller.

I assume the irony of this doesn't escape you either.

1. I'm not asking about economic predictions. I'm asking why you think the Iraq war triggered this crisis. I haven't heard that anywhere.

2. These are bad metaphors. The underlying flaws in the credit market are to blame for the economic crisis. I think we have agreed on that. Regardless of what set the house of card toppling over (to use your previous metaphor), the fact that it was a house of cards in the first place was the real problem. By its very nature the house of cards is an unstable system... and its going to seek an equillibrium. I don't very much blame the guy who sneezed.

Edited by Savage, 10 October 2008 - 09:02 PM.

[biknut]

Here's a question about Obamanomics.

Since Obama is going to cut all our taxes, and make up the difference taxiing the rich by raising their rates and increasing corporate taxes, and capital gains taxes.

What happens if rich people move their money to tax free bonds to avoid federal taxes?

[RighteousReason]

Here's a question about Obamanomics.

Since Obama is going to cut all our taxes, and make up the difference taxiing the rich by raising their rates and increasing corporate taxes, and capital gains taxes.

What happens if rich people move their money to tax free bonds to avoid federal taxes?

Or cut jobs?

Or push the price out to the consumer?

[luv2increase]

Well, when you look at it logically, which I am a big fan of, Obama is a liar once again. He specifically says over and over that 95% of Americans will get a tax cut. Since we have all concluded this isn't true, and no 80% or 85% doesn't make it true either, Obama is a liar.


Would anyone like to counter this? Remember, you must counter it with specifics that indeed 95% of Americans would get a tax cut.


Is not this a definition of a liar? If Obama is lying about this, what else may he be lying about? Ask yourselves this Obama seducees(sp?)?

Edited by luv2increase, 10 October 2008 - 09:11 PM.

[biknut]

Here's a question about Obamanomics.

Since Obama is going to cut all our taxes, and make up the difference taxiing the rich by raising their rates and increasing corporate taxes, and capital gains taxes.

What happens if rich people move their money to tax free bonds to avoid federal taxes?

Or cut jobs?

Or push the price out to the consumer?

It's a given they're going to do both of those things. What do people expect, that businesses are going to pay higher taxes, and just make less money?

In my business when my expenses go up I raise my prices. I consider higher taxes an expense, and so do all my suppliers. I have too, in order to stay in business. In addition to this, if the cost of goods and services goes up, I as a consumer have to try to make more money to keep up. In other words, we get back to my need to raise prices in my business again.

Edited by biknut, 10 October 2008 - 09:18 PM.

[luv2increase]

It's a given they're going to do both of those things. What do people expect, that businesses are going to pay higher taxes, and just make less money?

In my business when my expences go up I raise my prices. I consider higher taxes an expence, and so do all my suppliers. I have too, in order to stay in business. In addition to this, if the cost of goods and services goes up, I as a consumer have to try to make more money to keep up. In other words, we get back to my need to raise prices in my business again.

And Obama is playing on the American people's ignorance in this regard. It is common sense that when he ends up, if he gets the chance of course, raising the hell out of the taxes on business (small or large --> doesn't matter) the negative effects of it will, oh how would Obama say it, "trickle down to the people"!!!

[RighteousReason]

If Obama is lying about this, what else may he be lying about?

Barack Obama has been dishonest... has lied... about his relationship with William Ayers.

He has been dishonest about Jeremiah Wright. Do you really think he wasn't sitting in on any of Rev. Wright's infamous hateful, racist, anti-American sermons? Do you really think his views haven't taken any influence from this point of view? When Barack Obama has said in his book, and in speeches thereafter that "White man's greed run's a world in need"- doesn't this of remind you something?

"Barack knows what it means to be a black man living in a country and a culture ruled by rich white people!", or "US of KKK A", or "The government gives them the guns, buids bigger prisons, passes the three strike law, and then wants us to say 'God Bless America'? Naw naw naw, not 'God Bless America'. GOD D... AMERICA! GOD D... AMERICA!!" *cheers from the church*

Have you heard some of William Ayers anti-American views as a terrorist, and those of his terrorist cell Weather Underground? How he would do it all again, wished he had done more, wished that more damage had been done on 9/11? Why did William Ayers trust Obama so much, if their views weren't compatible on some level? Obama is trying to say he didn't know about Ayer's terrorism, or that he was unrepentant about his terrorism, if that were the case, which I don't believe, would he show the same lack of judgment and discernment in forming his relationships as the president of our country?

It would be one thing if these were isolated incidents, but Barack Obama has a pattern of associating with these kind of extremists, racists, and terrorists.

Does this pattern of associations and dishonesty not affect your perception of Obama at all?

Edited by Savage, 10 October 2008 - 10:40 PM.

[luv2increase]

Does this pattern not affect your perception of Obama at all?

It affects mine, but sadly is doesn't affect those ruled by the theory of cognitive dissonance such as everyone on this board who has heard all the negative Obama stuff and hasn't changed their mind on the individual in the least.

[biknut]

Here's a question about Obamanomics.

Since Obama is going to cut all our taxes, and make up the difference taxiing the rich by raising their rates and increasing corporate taxes, and capital gains taxes.

What happens if rich people move their money to tax free bonds to avoid federal taxes?

Getting back to this question. If I'm a rich guy why am I going to sit around and pay Obama's higher taxes, when I can just move my money to tax free bonds. Of course middle class people can't do this.

[luv2increase]

Getting back to this question. If I'm a rich guy why am I going to sit around and pay Obama's higher taxes, when I can just move my money to tax free bonds. Of course middle class people can't do this.

These questions are the ones McCain's campaign should be bringing up to put things into layman's perspective for the American voters. I believe they are running a horrible campaign strategically, and that is the reason they are not on top right now. They are underfunded compared to Obama and his foreign soil money, and their strategy isn't paying off.

[biknut]

Here's a question about Obamanomics.

Since Obama is going to cut all our taxes, and make up the difference taxiing the rich by raising their rates and increasing corporate taxes, and capital gains taxes.

What happens if rich people move their money to tax free bonds to avoid federal taxes?

Getting back to this question. If I'm a rich guy why am I going to sit around and pay Obama's higher taxes, when I can just move my money to tax free bonds. Of course middle class people can't do this.

I'm hoping one of the Obama supporters will take a crack at answering this question. Please don't say it's patriotic to pay higher taxes.

[maxwatt]

Here's a question about Obamanomics.

Since Obama is going to cut all our taxes, and make up the difference taxiing the rich by raising their rates and increasing corporate taxes, and capital gains taxes.

What happens if rich people move their money to tax free bonds to avoid federal taxes?

Getting back to this question. If I'm a rich guy why am I going to sit around and pay Obama's higher taxes, when I can just move my money to tax free bonds. Of course middle class people can't do this.

The way things are going, I expect tax fee municipal bonds are risky as municipalities lose tax revenue and default. It happened in the 30's, and we seemed to be headed in that direction. US government bonds will pay low interest, and the government will try to stimulate the economy by encouraging inflation. That will reduce the value of the principle. The smartest people I know sold everything in September, bought gold, and buried it in their back yards.

[biknut]

Here's a question about Obamanomics.

Since Obama is going to cut all our taxes, and make up the difference taxiing the rich by raising their rates and increasing corporate taxes, and capital gains taxes.

What happens if rich people move their money to tax free bonds to avoid federal taxes?

Getting back to this question. If I'm a rich guy why am I going to sit around and pay Obama's higher taxes, when I can just move my money to tax free bonds. Of course middle class people can't do this.

The way things are going, I expect tax fee municipal bonds are risky as municipalities lose tax revenue and default. It happened in the 30's, and we seemed to be headed in that direction. US government bonds will pay low interest, and the government will try to stimulate the economy by encouraging inflation. That will reduce the value of the principle. The smartest people I know sold everything in September, bought gold, and buried it in their back yards.

Well that might work too. How will Obama be able to collect taxes on buried gold? I still say we'll all be getting a tax cut because if Obama has his way we'll all be out of a job. Without a job we won't be paying any taxes.

McCain's plan to cut corporate taxes it better for all of us. The way things a going corporations will need tax cuts. Cutting the capital gains tax would help a lot too.

[RighteousReason]

If Obama is lying about this, what else may he be lying about?

Barack Obama has been dishonest... has lied... about his relationship with William Ayers.

He has been dishonest about Jeremiah Wright. Do you really think he wasn't sitting in on any of Rev. Wright's infamous hateful, racist, anti-American sermons? Do you really think his views haven't taken any influence from this point of view? When Barack Obama has said in his book, and in speeches thereafter that "White man's greed run's a world in need"- doesn't this of remind you something?

"Barack knows what it means to be a black man living in a country and a culture ruled by rich white people!", or "US of KKK A", or "The government gives them the guns, buids bigger prisons, passes the three strike law, and then wants us to say 'God Bless America'? Naw naw naw, not 'God Bless America'. GOD D... AMERICA! GOD D... AMERICA!!" *cheers from the church*

Have you heard some of William Ayers anti-American views as a terrorist, and those of his terrorist cell Weather Underground? How he would do it all again, wished he had done more, wished that more damage had been done on 9/11? Why did William Ayers trust Obama so much, if their views weren't compatible on some level? Obama is trying to say he didn't know about Ayer's terrorism, or that he was unrepentant about his terrorism, if that were the case, which I don't believe, would he show the same lack of judgment and discernment in forming his relationships as the president of our country?

It would be one thing if these were isolated incidents, but Barack Obama has a pattern of associating with these kind of extremists, racists, and terrorists.

Does this pattern of associations and dishonesty not affect your perception of Obama at all?

I could go on about these and other related issues for quite a bit, and I'll be speaking up in the next few weeks.