CHAT ARCHIVE: Utnapishtim --
RudiHoffman - Funding Cryonics Utnapishtim -- Official Chat Starts Now:
Rudi Hoffman -- And they are off!
John_Ventureville -- : )
Rudi Hoffman -- Hello, Dear John! Saw pictures of you posted to cryonet by Bryan Hall.
John_Ventureville -- hello!
Rudi Hoffman -- How are you doing? Can I get a big LOL! LOL!!
Utnapishtim -- Do you have a personal interest in cryonics or does your interest stem primarily from the legal aspects?
John_Ventureville -- ok......., this is for you Rudi........
John_Ventureville -- LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Utnapishtim -- LOL
John_Ventureville -- whew!
John_Ventureville -- I got it out of my system so now the chat can continue!
John_Ventureville -- as you were saying....
Rudi Hoffman -- I have a VERY personal interest in Cryonics. I have been signed since 1994, and I am fascinated by the financial aspects.
Utnapishtim -- I am not yet signed. (I am 26) but intend to do so.
Rudi Hoffman -- As well as the technical, political, and human elements. We small few are writing future history!
Rudi Hoffman -- May I call you Ut for short?
Utnapishtim -- I don't forsee probl;ems financing my extension so this helps to esplain my soemwhat lackadaisical attitude toward getting this done
Utnapishtim -- sure!
John_Ventureville -- I think people several centuries down the road will think of us as the adventurous sane ones in a crazy and in some ways barbaric age
Rudi Hoffman -- Ut, 26 is a good age.
John_Ventureville -- Utnap, let me warn you....
John_Ventureville -- Rudi is a very gifted salesman!
John_Ventureville -- : )
John_Ventureville -- *in a good way!*
Utnapishtim -- I am sure!
Utnapishtim --
Rudi Hoffman -- Yes, John, I agree. I often think of the folks who let the holocost go on in Germany.
Rudi Hoffman -- Some of these were probably my (distant) relatives, as I have German ancestry.
Utnapishtim -- Rudi: Given the aging of the demographic bump known as trhe babyboomer generation do you see a marked increase in demand for cryonics in the two decades ahead?
Rudi Hoffman -- And these folks, who were perhaps good people in some contexts, allowed and participated in the death camps.
Rudi Hoffman -- We are having our own equivalent of this in our age.
Utnapishtim -- an example of the stunning thoughlessness people are capable of
Rudi Hoffman -- Ut, I would absoloutly see that the aging "baby boom" bump so beloved by Harry Dent will encourage signups in cryonics.
Utnapishtim -- think of the many people who merely passively added up the numbers..
Utnapishtim -- civil servant types
John_Ventureville -- Rudi, I have to disagree somewhat with the cryonics/nazi death camp analogy
Utnapishtim -- who didn't face up to the responsibility to think
John_Ventureville -- I am greatly offended by Bush and Kass, but I don't put them in the same category as Hitler and his thugs
Utnapishtim -- hey susan
Rudi Hoffman -- I think the bigger factors will be technological. We don't have a single rat, cat, or dog back from cryonics temps. yet. But this will surely happen.
Utnapishtim -- welcoem back
John_Ventureville -- when cryonics shifts to fully reversible "suspended animation" we will be mainstream medicine
Rudi Hoffman -- John, good point. There is a huge dichotomy there, and I don't mean to be simplistic. Even tho the nature of this format is somewhat "soundbite" and simplistic.
Utnapishtim -- John I agree. But I also believe that a further requirement is that the people suspended are not legally dead
susan -- (Toronto-HSE-ppp3845435.sympatico.ca) susanisn't this infinite females? are there only guys on here?
Utnapishtim -- Susan: Infinite females was at 1800 hrs eastern
Rudi Hoffman -- Welcome, susan. We are not gender ists of any sort, and you are welcome to stay.
susan -- Utnapishtim -- hey susan
susan -- Utnapishtim -- hey susan
Rudi Hoffman -- What most people in our current tech do not realize is the following:
John_Ventureville -- Rudi, LOL!
John_Ventureville -- "genderists"
Rudi Hoffman -- 1. Whether we have reversible cryostasis currently is not vital for it to work in the future.
Rudi Hoffman -- and
Rudi Hoffman -- 2. Because of life insurance the gamble is affordable and makes sense even at this time.
Utnapishtim -- I agree with both points..
Rudi Hoffman -- Glad you got that coined word, John. But I think we lost our "token female."
John_Ventureville -- I get so tired of hearing that "cryonics is only for the rich."
Rudi Hoffman -- You still there, Susan?
Utnapishtim -- One of the problems as I see it is that the people who are called upon to evaluate the effectiveness of cryonicists by journalists
John_Ventureville -- Rudi is our crusader to break that old myth
Rudi Hoffman -- Yes, you may have seen my "rant" about this on cryonics in response to Randy Wicker. It was called,
Rudi Hoffman -- The BIG LIE EXPOSED!!
Utnapishtim -- use the main tool in their intellctual toolkit to do so.. Namely the scientific method.
Utnapishtim -- when what is actually required in game theory
Rudi Hoffman -- I don't understand this, Ut. Could you explain?
Utnapishtim -- They have been taught to be critical of all unproven assertions
Utnapishtim -- and view cryonicists as people making a particular claim
Utnapishtim -- namely "We will be able to return from the dead.'
Utnapishtim -- and rightly view this claim as a somewhat dubious one
Utnapishtim -- and lacking in proof
Rudi Hoffman -- Well, I respect the concept of "skepticism" much more than the average person. But what surprised and dissapointed me was the editor of "Skeptic" magazine, and a regular columnist in "Scientific American" being so critical of cryonics. I am referring, of course, to Michael Shermer.
John_Ventureville -- but if they do their homework (read Merkle, etc.) they will realize it is not a scam but a possibility
Utnapishtim -- These people do not really apply a mode of thinking that addresses the question of what the strategically optimal choice given incomplete information and an unknown outcome is
Utnapishtim -- Rudi: I repsonded to micheals commets on the IMMINST forums
Utnapishtim -- let me see if I can find the thread
John_Ventureville -- I read a statement by Shermer recently which gave grudging respect to cryonics
Rudi Hoffman -- Michael KNOWS that cryonics is generally funded with insurance. Yet, he took some really "cheap shots" at the concept a few issues back. The reason I know he understands this is because I sat in a swimming pool with him PERSONALLY at a "Skeptics Conference" and we talked about this.
John_Ventureville -- he said it was not a scam but a highly questionable endeavor in terms of it really working
Rudi Hoffman -- Yes, Ut, I did to. Emailed and snail mailed short, pithy response. No go on getting it printed, tho.
Utnapishtim -- again he is missing the point
John_Ventureville -- it sounds like he is engaging in yellow journalism
Utnapishtim -- he is treatiung cryonicists as making a claim
Utnapishtim -- rather than a rational decision
Utnapishtim -- 'This seems a better idea than rotting'
Rudi Hoffman -- Good distinction, Ut. This relates to your distinction of "game theory" vs. "being skeptical of outlandish claims."
Utnapishtim --
http://imminst.org/f...f=69&t=1806&hl= Utnapishtim -- this thread has Shermers article plus my response
John_Ventureville -- My employer will just have to in time buy the Skeptical Inquirer and give Mr. Shermer his walking papers
John_Ventureville -- ; )
Rudi Hoffman -- And, I agree with you as well, that we need to de-emphasize the "coming back from the dead" meme vs. the "rational medical proceedure that MAY save your life which costs you perhaps 2 or 3 bucks a day.
John_Ventureville -- good point!
Rudi Hoffman -- Stand by while I klik on link.
Utnapishtim -- something I pointed out in that thread... Using Shermers logic taken to its natural conclusion
Utnapishtim -- --I don't buy stock since there is no scientific proof that it will rise in value.
Utnapishtim -- -- I don't insure my house or possessions. There is no proof that I will be burgled in the coming year.
John_Ventureville -- there is a causal relationship in your examples which cryonics does not yet have
Utnapishtim -- yes you are right...
Utnapishtim -- I will conceed that
Rudi Hoffman -- Oh, UT! This is a great posting! The distinction between Occoms Razor, being rigorous in your epistomology, is DISTINCT from the real world that we MUST make decisions in.
Rudi Hoffman -- In the real world, we MUST and DO make decisions with incomplete but reasonable info every day.
Utnapishtim -- but I was trying to make the broader point that. 'I do not know for certain whether this is useful so I will refrain from purchasing. Is a somewhat irrational position
Rudi Hoffman -- No business man would survive, nor would any of us make our way in the "real world" if we stayed home until all the lites between home and town turned green.
Rudi Hoffman -- Yes, requiring an outlandish level of certainty before we take actions to optimize our future IS irrational.
Rudi Hoffman -- Which kind of brings us back to finances. Even if cryonics is only assumed to have a SMALL chance of working, if it is affordable through life insurance to fund it, MILLIONS will want to sign up.
Utnapishtim -- What is frustrating is that I believe that this misapplication of a particular epistomology is at the root of scientific skepticism regarding the cryonic endeavor
Rudi Hoffman -- Well put, Ut. The very people who are RATIONAL, Skeptical, scientific, and "leading, bleeding edge" who should be signing up in droves and supporting this meme are not.
Utnapishtim -- do you have any ideas as to how we can turn the tide?
Rudi Hoffman -- I also talked to James Randi, the ultimate skeptic debunker about cryonics in person near his 70th bday some years back. He was open to the idea, but has not done anything about it.
Utnapishtim -- Reading soem of Randi's readings make sme really appreciate the loss of Carl Sagan.
Rudi Hoffman -- I think the tide will turn by itself over time, given the megatrends that are probably unstoppable in human progress in the tech and scientific realm. But, the responsibilities to create the memetic foundation to accept transhumanist and ideals remain up to us.
Utnapishtim -- Some of his writings
Utnapishtim -- excuse the typo
Rudi Hoffman -- Yes, Carl Sagan Unfrozen is one of my most significant dissapointments. As I write these words, many of Sagans books are within a meter of me on my bookshelf. And, dammit, Arthur C. Clarke is not doing any better.
Rudi Hoffman -- Ironically, there are several authors I will be writing about cryonics. One is Charles Pelligrino, and the other is Jon Krakaur. Both scientific, brilliant men.
Utnapishtim -- I was temporarily disconnected
Rudi Hoffman -- And Pelligrino knows Clarke fairly well, evidently.
Rudi Hoffman -- I have in my records a letter sent to ALCOR requesting a "freebie" suspension for a list of sci fi and scientific heavy hitters if they would "go public" with their decision.
Rudi Hoffman -- ALCOR agreed, and CI would probably as well. We need a REAL scientist and thought leader, not just a Ted Williams.
Utnapishtim -- How many Big names do you feel it would take to really turn the tide and make cryonic suspensions osically acceptable
Utnapishtim -- I think Ted Williams could have been a huge coup if handled correctly
Rudi Hoffman -- A single one could be HUGE. Someone like "I'll be back" Schwartenegger could net us tens of thousands of folks. IMHO. What do you think?
Utnapishtim -- If arguably the greatest hitter in history had explained that he wanted to be cryonically suspended and why it would have been a huge boost
Rudi Hoffman -- We did sign the producer of "An American Werewolf in Paris" is signed up. I turned him to Halperin's "The First Immortal," and perhaps a big screenplay will come of this.
Utnapishtim -- I think what would really help is not neccessarily hollywood type but someone associated in the public eye with straight arrow noramlcy and good values
Utnapishtim -- Tom Brokaw or Dan Rathers for example
Rudi Hoffman -- Yes, If Ted would have handled this different, it could have been a bigger boost.
Utnapishtim -- Walther Cronkite
John_Ventureville -- Rudi, is work going forward to contact celebrities regarding free suspensions??
Rudi Hoffman -- Yes, Let's freeze Walther! "That's the way it is," lol
John_Ventureville -- Is this an ongoing project of yours/Alcor?
Rudi Hoffman -- Yes and no. I will need to get reapproval from current ALCOR leadership.
Rudi Hoffman -- BTW, do we like the new Prez?
John_Ventureville -- this could be a great time to do it!
John_Ventureville -- Rudi, the new prez is a great guy
John_Ventureville -- I spent quite a bit of time with him at the Creekside Cryofeast
John_Ventureville -- I think Joe would be open to your idea
Rudi Hoffman -- I thot I knew most players, but have not heard of this particular name. What's his background? Will "Cryonics" have a piece on him?
John_Ventureville -- Joe Waynick....
John_Ventureville -- is a former marine and American Express executive who presently owns his own printing business
Rudi Hoffman -- That's good, John. I am glad you like him. But you are one of the most loyal and kindest humans on the planet.
John_Ventureville -- lol
John_Ventureville -- I was not concerned about niceness as I gently interrogated the man
John_Ventureville -- lol
Rudi Hoffman -- Oh. Good bio. He will need to be a tough and smart "MF" to take on THIS job. LOL
John_Ventureville -- and talked with him & watched closely for two days
Rudi Hoffman -- Very good. Any word on the next ALCOR/CRYONICS gathering?
John_Ventureville -- he is a fiscal conservative who wants to get Alcor expenses under control
John_Ventureville -- and will be freezing some projects until more funding comes in
Rudi Hoffman -- I will probably be calling him next week. Want to have a real time phone call with Dr. Lemler as well.
John_Ventureville -- I will really miss Dr. Lemler
Rudi Hoffman -- No pun intended on "freezing"? LOL
John_Ventureville -- he and Paula are great people
John_Ventureville -- until advanced nanotechnology is developed some Alcor projects will never be completed!
John_Ventureville -- ; )
John_Ventureville -- *like the dual operating room*
Rudi Hoffman -- Me too. Jerry pulled a very fracteous and splintered community together. But I understand Paula and He will still be active?
John_Ventureville -- yes, he will stay on as medical director
Rudi Hoffman -- Was he at Creekside gathering recently?
John_Ventureville -- no, due to his health
Rudi Hoffman -- Bummer.
John_Ventureville -- his cancer is in remission but the treatments to ensure that are very hard on him
Rudi Hoffman -- He is a client. Could be my first cryonics "death" claim. But, god,err...reason...I hope not.
John_Ventureville -- the man has been through hell and yet worked as much as he good despite that
Rudi Hoffman -- I think it is only us. Ut., you still there?
John_Ventureville -- it would be hugely ironic for an Alcor president to wind up needing cryonic suspension after having so recently served
Rudi Hoffman -- I read that Ut. has had tech probs. John, do you think we should bring this to a close?
John_Ventureville -- perhaps we should give him a little more time to return to us
John_Ventureville -- if you have the time
Rudi Hoffman -- Yes, but sometimes the Universe IS ultimately Ironic.
John_Ventureville -- yep
Utnapishtim -- yeah still here
John_Ventureville -- ok!
Utnapishtim -- had to answer phone call
John_Ventureville -- back to Joe Waynick...
John_Ventureville -- he seems to have a friendly but strong personality
Rudi Hoffman -- Hello, Ut.
John_Ventureville -- he wants accountability at Alcor among the employees with a focus on discipline
John_Ventureville -- but he is a former marine!
Rudi Hoffman -- Is he signed up yet personally? Don't answer if you don't feel comfortable doing so or don't know.
John_Ventureville -- I hope he can get along with the board, staff and members ok
John_Ventureville -- he has been a member for about two years now
Utnapishtim -- frankly I think that should be a requirement
John_Ventureville -- much as Dr. Lemler had not been a member for long before becoming president
Rudi Hoffman -- Yes, the marines have a very strong "corporate culture."
Utnapishtim -- I have always struggled to reconcile Charles Platts lack of personal enthusiasm for cryonic suspension with his heavy involvement in Alcor
Jonesey -- forgot about rudi supposedly talking, is he done?
Rudi Hoffman -- Charles is a very unusual man.
John_Ventureville -- yes, he is
Rudi Hoffman -- Hello, A new player! New blood! LOL
John_Ventureville -- he drops by here occasionally
Rudi Hoffman -- welcome, Jonesy.
John_Ventureville -- Jonesay!
John_Ventureville -- howdy
John_Ventureville -- *new, old blood*
Jonesey -- hi johnny, heeeere's jonesey
John_Ventureville -- lol
Rudi Hoffman -- LOL!
John_Ventureville -- no, it's "heeeeeeeeere's JOHNNY!!!"
John_Ventureville -- Charles has his doubts about cryonics but he realizes it's the best game in town
Rudi Hoffman -- What a great format! "Is this a great country or what?" ....(From some comedy sketch.)
John_Ventureville -- you have to lighten things up a bit now and then
Utnapishtim -- lol
John_Ventureville -- I was glad to see Charles brought back into Alcor
Rudi Hoffman -- There is no other rational choice for the individual who believes "life is good and I don't want to die."
Utnapishtim -- John: Utterly irrelevant aside.. Did you ever see that New Orleans Touchdown I told you about?
John_Ventureville -- Charles is sort of the "Lucifer" of Alcor history due to the whole cryowars/Cryocare affair of a decade ago
John_Ventureville -- Ut, I have not seen it yet
John_Ventureville -- is their a website where I could see it?
John_Ventureville -- it sounded amazing
Utnapishtim -- not sure...
Rudi Hoffman -- Any of us who are reality based, even if we are cryonics "idealogues" as I unabashedly am, must face the hard facts as follows:
Utnapishtim -- it was absolutely insane
Jonesey -- charles = lucifer, or the chamberlains?
John_Ventureville -- LOL
Utnapishtim -- Rudi: go ahead
John_Ventureville -- let's not get into the Chamberlains....
Rudi Hoffman -- 1. The odds of us getting an optimal suspension are questionable.
John_Ventureville -- yes, Charles as the son of the morning, drawing way from the Alcor host of Heaven
Rudi Hoffman -- 2. There are a LOT of variables we cannot control. (Witness the ALCOR signee who went down in the Twin Towers. "That ain't gonna grow back."
Rudi Hoffman -- LOL!! You guys are funny! Really.
John_Ventureville -- we do our humble best
John_Ventureville -- : )
Rudi Hoffman -- I will post on cryonet tommorow that you wrote that Charles Platt is the devil! LOL!!!!
John_Ventureville -- he would probably have a good laugh from it
Rudi Hoffman -- BTW, did you see he is member of Imminnst? I am thinking of joining as well.
John_Ventureville -- you should
John_Ventureville -- this and the Society for Venturism are the two "happenin' immortalist groups!"
Utnapishtim -- Rudi: therer is a lot of mediocrity posted on the boards but plenty of interesting threads too
Utnapishtim -- and a solid core of intellgent contributors
Rudi Hoffman -- My wife, the joy of my life, said I could join...told her I would committ 25 bucks...but then saw it was $50 for a year, so have to check with her again. The joys of being married.
John_Ventureville -- LOL
John_Ventureville -- you poor man
John_Ventureville -- Rudi, if you were a mega millionaire would she still put you through this?
Rudi Hoffman -- Not making unilateral decisions is also how I STAY happily married.
John_Ventureville -- *taking notes*
Rudi Hoffman -- I don't know. But I sure as heck expect to find out! May take a few years.
John_Ventureville -- dang
John_Ventureville -- I'm glad you're doing so well
Utnapishtim -- The inability to unilaterally spend 50 bucks is a scary prospect for me Perhaps one of the reasons I do not have a marriage on the horizon
Utnapishtim --
Rudi Hoffman -- Re: board postings on Imminst. Yes, I have read excellent posts. Many members are already friends/acquaintences/clients. This is MY demographic!
John_Ventureville -- Ut, when you meet the right gal you won't be caring one bit about that
John_Ventureville -- IMMINST has a very active and vibrant membership. It reminds me somewhat of an early ExI
John_Ventureville -- *just not as wild*
hkhenson -- wassail
hkhenson -- sorry I missed rudi
John_Ventureville -- howdy Keith!
John_Ventureville -- he's still here
hkhenson -- ah
John_Ventureville -- *in disguise*
hkhenson -- hmm ok
Rudi Hoffman -- So, will future historians say this was a successful chat? Have I been properly compelling in terms of encouraging all who read this to move forward on your cryonics life insurance arrangements AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. The time to BUY life insurance is when you DON'T need it. Lot's of young and healthy people have glitches which makes the obtaining of insurance difficult or impossible.
hkhenson -- saw him last night
hkhenson -- fortunately he does not need to convince me. :-)
John_Ventureville -- Rudi, I think 22nd century historians will write copious volumes based solely on this very chat!
Rudi Hoffman -- These glitches can happen to you. Sorry to sound like such an "back the hearse to the door " insurance man, but the reality is that smart folks like us STILL think we are not REALLY going to need to do anything for a long time.
John_Ventureville -- I have heard some horror stories of what has happened to some people.
John_Ventureville -- in fact...
Rudi Hoffman -- Welcome, Keith! Love your writings. You are a brave, fascinating, and smart man.
Rudi Hoffman -- Don't disclose anything you don't want public forever...
John_Ventureville -- there was a young woman with cerebral palsy (or something similar) whose father was in suspension, but she could not get insurance to follow him. Any idea of what happened to her?
Rudi Hoffman -- If ONE person who has an IRREPLACEABLE brain pattern reads this in real time or in archive format, and decides to pick up the phone and call me at 800-749-3773 or email me at rudicfp@aol.com, this would be worth it.
John_Ventureville -- I can vouch for Rudi being a very honest, helpful and hardworking life insurance agent.
Rudi Hoffman -- And future historians WILL or at least COULD write volumes. What would the mind of an Einstein, Kepler, or other bright folks do if given 1000 years instead of a nasty 50 or 80?
Utnapishtim -- and that was a piece of very beautiful but very ethical selling!
John_Ventureville -- And he can navigate the life insurance companies for cryonics coverage where the average person may encounter great difficulty.
Rudi Hoffman -- Thanks, John. This is an unsolicited testimonial. John ain't getting a plug nickel for this valued endorsement. LOL!
John_Ventureville -- I'm sure not.
Utnapishtim -- I agree. I also think that the value of a mind can not be measured merely in terms of its utility to others
John_Ventureville -- but I'd know if Rudi were a lowdown no-good yellow bellied rattlesnake of an insurance agent and I can say he is not!
Utnapishtim -- Self Awareness, like Art, justifies itself
John_Ventureville -- quite the opposite
Rudi Hoffman -- John, I don't know or can't recall the reference of the daughter you referred to. Sorry.
John_Ventureville -- if I remember right her name was Louise Epstein
Rudi Hoffman -- LOL! Spoken like a true westerner.
John_Ventureville -- I have been in Arizona too long!
John_Ventureville -- : )
Rudi Hoffman -- Ihave had the unfortunate duty to tell far too many people that I cannot get them life insurance at ANY price. This is genuinly a heartbreaking thing for me to do.
John_Ventureville -- Cryonet members rallied around my good friend James Swayze and got him a policy but she seemed to be forgotten
John_Ventureville -- I realize our resources are very limited, even collectively
hkhenson -- hmm
John_Ventureville -- hey...
Rudi Hoffman -- Not because I lose a sale. I have more prospects, cryonic and otherwise, than I have adequate time to follow through on. But because I may be pronoucing a death sentence on someone who could be the next Gallileo.
John_Ventureville -- why don't we promote cryonics by creating a nonprofit charity which raises money to get policies for uninsurable people who desperately want to be signed up
John_Ventureville -- ???
hkhenson -- If there was any project that the rich might support in cryonics, that could be it.
John_Ventureville -- the public heartstrings will be touched as they see a very human face put to our movement
hkhenson -- might be .....
John_Ventureville -- I really think we are on to something with this
Rudi Hoffman -- A lot of variables and costs involved in this. A true nonprofit has audits, regulations, etc. And if the reciepients are TRULY uninsurable the cost for suspension could be the CASH costs, not life insurance premium.
Rudi Hoffman -- s.
John_Ventureville -- a lot of work to be sure
John_Ventureville -- my employer could help me on this
hkhenson -- that's almost never true rudi
John_Ventureville -- he has been through it all before
Rudi Hoffman -- Yes, gentlemen. These are still early days in the cryonics movement.
hkhenson -- right. mike darwin hiding out from the cops . . . . . .
Rudi Hoffman -- I am ambivalent if this is the best direction to place emphasis. With research going unfunded. And SAI in difficulties with zoning boards.
hkhenson -- actually, we might well be more than half way through the cryonics era.
hkhenson -- if there were really good ideas for research, money could be found.
Rudi Hoffman -- What? This certainly has my interest. Mike is a fascinating man. I have spent many happy hours learning from this guy. But, even he will admit that he is further from the middle of the bell curve than even MOST cryonicists.
hkhenson -- heck, I would go after it myself
Rudi Hoffman -- Last I heard, he left SAI in some Mike type snit. Not exactly unexpected, but unfortunate, nevertheless.
Jonesey -- mike type or human type. we're a squabbly species, lets face it
hkhenson -- so true. I only wish that mike's "snits" didn't cost so many lives
Rudi Hoffman -- And, Keith, may I respectfully point out that the PURPOSE of research, cryonic and otherwise, is to FIND and explore the "Really good ideas."
John_Ventureville -- I have never met Mike
Rudi Hoffman -- A Squabbly species. Nice verbiage. Could be a book title.
Jonesey -- you're welcome
Jonesey -- halperin's next book?!
Rudi Hoffman -- Perhaps a footnote on some alien's description of the humans on Sol 3, A La, "A Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy."
hkhenson -- unfortunately, nobody has the slightest idea about how you could reach suspended animation for mammals
hkhenson -- short of nanotech that is
Rudi Hoffman -- Keith, this is a pretty broad and perhaps overeaching statement. Could you back this up?
hkhenson -- you can disprove me by stating even one idea of how to do it.
hkhenson -- it certainly isn't I am happy about.
Rudi Hoffman -- I suspect my friend and client Dr. Brian Wowk, Greg Fahy, and others at 21st Century Medicine, along with other researchers in cryobiology and cryonics would have a few ideas.
hkhenson -- oh?
hkhenson -- have they stated this anywhere?
Rudi Hoffman -- And perhaps take some umbrage that the implication that there has been NO progress in suspension tech.
hkhenson -- well, if you know of anything along this direction, please let me know right away.
John_Ventureville -- too bad we aren't amphibians or insects instead of mammals!
John_Ventureville -- lol
hkhenson -- I am fairly good at writing fundraising letter and will whip one out
hkhenson -- letters
Rudi Hoffman -- Yes, the last several ALCOR conferences, were EXACTLY about the current state of the art in cryonic suspension. I make no claims to be a technician. But Wowk and Fahy's presentation showed the distinctions between vitrified organs and frozen ones. I am not saying the progress is rapid, or "ready for prime time."
hkhenson -- thing about it is, there are no examples in the natural world.
hkhenson -- rudi, the problem is that vitrified tissue can't be brought back any better than the previous cryopreserved tissues.
Rudi Hoffman -- And I certainly with what I believe is your point that progress is currently virtually at a standstill.
hkhenson -- i.e., non functional after being warmed up.
John_Ventureville -- the "information" is just better preserved for future tech to work on
hkhenson -- now what John says is defensible.
hkhenson -- and very likely true.
Rudi Hoffman -- I had a phone call with David Shumaker at Suspended Animation Inc. not too long ago. And he was equally or more frustrated.
hkhenson -- well, it is a question we can probably answer, post nanotech at any rate.
Rudi Hoffman -- Said that basically everyone at SAI has been on payroll, rent is being paid, money is being burned like crazy, and NO real research results are happening.
hkhenson -- because at that point we will understand fully the low temperature effects
Rudi Hoffman -- Oops, forgot the key word "agree" in above posting, Keith.
hkhenson -- and can computer model every solvent cryoprotective there is.
Rudi Hoffman -- Rudi Hoffman -- Oops, forgot the key word "agree" in above posting, Keith.\
hkhenson -- if a solution exists, we will be able to find it.
hkhenson -- that is a lot tech solution to suspended animation.
Rudi Hoffman -- Gentlemen and Dear Readers, I am being called to more husbandly duties. May I ask for any last observations/questions?
hkhenson -- my guess is that that even with a total understanding there might not be a low tech solution.
hkhenson -- but it sure would be cool if there was
hkhenson -- rudi, it is way late, take off if you need to
Jonesey -- Rudi Hoffman:why does the marketing of cryo suck so badly?
hkhenson -- nobody has the slightest idea of how to do it jonesey
hkhenson -- not for a lack of major good people doing a lot of thinking about it.
Jonesey -- you think hkh? marketing is a fairly well understood business
hkhenson -- ha.
hkhenson -- might even be
hkhenson -- but how do you sell to something that appeals to one person in a million?
Jonesey -- religions market a rather shoddy version of a shot at immortality
Rudi Hoffman -- We can agree on this one for sure. My hope is that we may be able to have reversable biostasis BEFORE full blown nanotech. But the only thing that I can PERSONALLY do to help make this come about, in addition to spreading such memes, is to try to show as many people as possible how AFFORDABLE cryonics can be.
Jonesey -- that's bull, look at how many ppl sign up for religion
Rudi Hoffman -- This is my MISSION, passion, and profession. I hope I can contribute in an even more meaningful way over time.
hkhenson -- well, they don't "sign up"
Jonesey -- they do
Rudi Hoffman -- My best wishes to you all. Thank you for your efforts and thoughts. Warm Holiday regards, and Good Night.
hkhenson -- not in the same sense people do for cryonics
John_Ventureville -- goodnight!
Jonesey -- and most believe their pet superstition offers them a better shot at immortality than cryo
Jonesey -- that's pathetic marketing by cryo
hkhenson -- are you signed up?
John_Ventureville -- put your money where your mouth is?
hkhenson -- no, was just going to ask what did it for him.
hkhenson -- with me it was knowing eric drexler
Jonesey -- i'm signed up
hkhenson -- what did it for you?
Jonesey -- with me it was tiny probability versus 0
Jonesey -- met eric much later
Jonesey -- nantech per se was not a factor in my decision
Jonesey -- just the above simple arithmetic
Rudi Hoffman -- Anyone besides John have the courtesy to say good nite to me?
Jonesey -- no we're holding out for u to stick around
Rudi Hoffman -- LOL!
Jonesey -- figure if we don't say good nite u can't leave
Rudi Hoffman -- LOLLLL!!
hkhenson -- nite rudi
Jonesey -- good morning rudi
Rudi Hoffman -- Here I was having my feelings hurt, and you were merely being manipulative in a nice way.
hkhenson -- most people are logging and will read later
Rudi Hoffman -- Thanks, I can go with a smile now!
Jonesey -- the night is young and so r u rudi
John_Ventureville -- my mother raised me to be polite
John_Ventureville -- : )
hkhenson -- marketing cryonics is surely an interesting subject, any thoughts on how you would do it jonesey?
hkhenson -- some fairly big names in the field gave it a lot of thought and gave up.
John_Ventureville -- we will succeed where they failed!!!
John_Ventureville -- *I say humbly*
Jonesey -- they didn't give it much thought if they missed the fact that tons of $ are being made marketing immortality
hkhenson -- have you read "religion explained" by pascal boyer?
Jonesey -- religion in general and associated funeral rites are big ticket items and offer what is basically a scientific illiterate's idea of a shot at immortality
Jonesey -- nope hkh
hkhenson -- it is worth reading for a number of reasons
John_Ventureville -- slowing down the effects of cosmetic aging tends to be the big money marketing focus in mainstream society
Jonesey -- that's not true
John_Ventureville -- whether it be cosmetic surgery or facial creme
Jonesey -- religions sell a much longer term "solution" to the desire for immortality
Jonesey -- and make as least as much $ as the cosmetics industry
John_Ventureville -- *probably MUCH more*
Jonesey -- yep
Jonesey -- so hkh's argument that the market is tiny is wrong
hkhenson -- the market for *cryonics* is tiny
hkhenson -- manifestly.
Jonesey -- inope
Jonesey -- not any more than the mkt for christ is tiny cos it started out tiny
Jonesey -- christians took over the roman empire a coupla centuries after the romans killed christ. not bad
hkhenson -- ok, what growth rate does that imply?
Jonesey -- half the known world per century
hkhenson -- numbers please.
John_Ventureville -- we are rehashing old cryonet discussions here
hkhenson -- not at all. this has never been computed that I know about
Jonesey -- i gave you numbers
Jonesey -- the roman empire in a coupla centuries.
hkhenson -- no you did not
Jonesey -- hence half the roman empire per century
hkhenson -- hard number x millions in y years
John_Ventureville -- I honestly believe we hit upon something golden with the idea of offering free suspensions to the exceptional and/or famous of the world & by giving suspensions to the ill and uninsurable in desperate need.
Jonesey -- pay attention
Jonesey -- that's a hard number, you're just innumerate.
John_Ventureville -- We just need the jumpstart capital to get this project off the ground!
Jonesey -- cryonet discussions i've seen never get this practical
Jonesey -- capital?
John_Ventureville -- I have
Jonesey -- to beat the ridiculous fluff religions market?
hkhenson -- 10 million in 2 centuries?
John_Ventureville -- on cryonet and the extrolist good ideas come up fairly often and routinely get....
hkhenson -- starting with 12?
John_Ventureville -- forgotten.
Jonesey -- sounds like a plan hkh
Jonesey -- take care of it hkh i gotta crash soon
hkhenson -- in fact, start with ten
hkhenson -- so that's a factor of a million
hkhenson -- or two factors of 1000
hkhenson -- or 20 doublings
hkhenson -- in 200 years, that's a doubling per decade
John_Ventureville -- early Christianity probably took off pretty fast with Paul in there making those long roadtrips
hkhenson -- cryonics does *better* than that.
hkhenson -- during paul's lifetime the communities were tiny john
Jonesey -- good point hkh, cryo is doing rather well compared to early christianity
Jonesey -- they were shitty mkters too and still beat the romans
hkhenson -- there may be an advantage to slow growth
hkhenson -- cryonics is not something you want to go up as a fad and then crash.
John_Ventureville -- that would be bad
Jonesey -- didn't happen with islam or christianity, which are utter BS by comparison
Jonesey -- and their parent judaism is still going strong despite hitler's onslaught
John_Ventureville -- I'm not so sure about early Christians being bad marketers...
hkhenson -- I don't think cryonics will last anything close to a century
hkhenson -- because the need will be gone.
Jonesey -- ur a bad mketer if you get fed to a lion pardner
John_Ventureville -- their religion demanded sacrifice in lifestyle and sometimes lives which attracts certain kinds of people
Jonesey -- how was peter killed, wasn't he fed molten lead or something gruesome?
John_Ventureville -- I think so
hkhenson -- there were strong advantages as well.
Jonesey -- he was martyred trying to bring the gospel to rome as i recall. his mkting wasn't too...hot
John_Ventureville -- and martyrdom has a great power to it
Jonesey -- but his death was plenty hot
John_Ventureville -- in a way it can be the best damn form of marketing
John_Ventureville -- ready to die for the cause Keith?
Jonesey -- i don't think being fed to lions is a sustainable way of attracting adherents
John_Ventureville -- ready to have the luddites chop you to bits?
John_Ventureville -- lol
hkhenson -- think about it john.
Jonesey -- christianity succeeded in spite of its early mkting, not becos of it
hkhenson -- working on HIV cases with a handful of sharps . . . .
Jonesey -- much like cryo
hkhenson -- I am certainly willing to risk death for a cause, but not a certain thing.
hkhenson -- after all, that's why I am in canada.
John_Ventureville -- I don't blame you
John_Ventureville -- DAMN
Jonesey -- oh? canada...?
John_Ventureville -- I don't think they wanted to kill you, just make your life hell
Jonesey -- your home and native land...?
hkhenson -- they made it clear they were going to kill me.
John_Ventureville -- wow
hkhenson -- may 17 postings by one of their shills.
John_Ventureville -- empty threats to scare you?
hkhenson -- I don't think so. they had the power to do it.
hkhenson -- and had demonstrated it.
John_Ventureville -- the power but perhaps not the real interest to go through with it
hkhenson -- even here, they were spending money on me you could not believe
John_Ventureville -- they have it to spend
hkhenson -- court records in the case where they killed the woman showed they had spent
hkhenson -- over a million on me and had another $350,000 budgeted
hkhenson -- jonesey, I used to be a US citizen.
John_Ventureville -- what happened to the woman?
hkhenson -- she went crazy on scientology processing
Jonesey -- fled the vietnam draft hkhenson?
hkhenson -- they locked her up and didn't give her enough food or water and she died, after being eaten by cockroaches
hkhenson -- jonesey, got a web browser?
Jonesey -- yup
hkhenson -- www.operatingthetan.com
John_Ventureville -- horrible if true, but still probably not first degree murder
hkhenson -- john www.lisamcpherson.org
Jonesey -- bizarre hkh
hkhenson -- I was protesting two killings out near hemet
hkhenson -- when I was effectively condemed to death for picketing.
hkhenson -- as a terrorist . . . .
hkhenson -- one was a 16 year old girl who they got on the highway with a front loader
goomba -- i read about those killings and some of the testimony by former scientologists in some trials against them
hkhenson -- because of scientology policy about reports
goomba -- i cant believe this organization can exist
hkhenson -- which have to be done by 2 pm on thursday.
hkhenson -- and the other was ordered into a hot underground transformer vault with lots of bear wires to do a rat inspection
hkhenson -- goomba, I know how they work
hkhenson -- and for that matter it bears on marketing cryonics sort of.
Jonesey -- scientology=evil, amazing they r tolerated here
hkhenson -- human-nature.com/nibbs/02/cults.html
Jonesey -- pretty much every other country has drop kicked that cult
hkhenson -- not so.
hkhenson -- only a few of them have kicked the cult out.
John_Ventureville -- cryonics could right now have many tens of millions in revenue had Ettinger or someone else decided to use cult techniques to market it
Jonesey -- not kicked em out but kept em under control...e.g. germany
hkhenson -- some have been sitting on it fairly hard, but only greece has kicked their butts out
John_Ventureville -- a scary thought
Jonesey -- heheeh
hkhenson -- still, even in the worst cases for scientology, there are a lot of them by comparison to cryonics members
John_Ventureville -- imagine a cryonics version of the Raellians!
John_Ventureville -- lol
hkhenson -- like for example there are 1781 scientologists in Great Briton
John_Ventureville -- that's not really very many people
hkhenson -- and probably about 1/100 of that of cryonics members
hkhenson -- there are something like 50k of them in the US.
John_Ventureville -- wow
hkhenson -- 100k world wide
hkhenson -- there were more, it is failing
hkhenson -- the net is eating them for lunch
John_Ventureville -- that is not many people considering their money and influence
hkhenson -- lot of people go through scn
John_Ventureville -- but leave after the contents of their bank account are gone?
hkhenson -- they are good at getting and keeping actors
hkhenson -- that's a major factor.
hkhenson -- though less of one than you might think
hkhenson -- a lot of them feel they got full value for the money they paid
John_Ventureville -- I read they have the equivalent of a five star hotel for the celebrity members like Travolta
hkhenson -- much like dope addicts
hkhenson -- right.
John_Ventureville -- and it is staffed by low level members
hkhenson -- but what scientology does for people is provide them with intense attention.
John_Ventureville -- "love bombing?"
hkhenson -- this causes the release of dopamine and endorphins
hkhenson -- very similar to love bombing
John_Ventureville -- we should start love bombing to promote cryonics
John_Ventureville -- LOL
hkhenson -- the chemicals activate the brain's reward pathway.
hkhenson -- and the people in attention-reward cults act just like drug addicts.
John_Ventureville -- I once heard it termed "getting the warm fuzzies"
hkhenson -- in fact, this social reward pathway is the reason we can be addicted to drugs
John_Ventureville -- interesting
hkhenson -- exact same description people use to describe being high on smack.
Jonesey -- the US is way more religious in general than the UK
John_Ventureville -- yes
Jonesey -- compare blair's speeches with bush's constant going on about gawd
John_Ventureville -- in the UK they like to turn churches into restaurants and dance clubs!
John_Ventureville -- *heathens!*
John_Ventureville -- : )
hkhenson -- blair is highly religion compared to most of the politicians in the UK
hkhenson -- anyway, the subject of what motivates people or at least some of them is begining to be understood
hkhenson -- the key is evolutionary psychology.
John_Ventureville -- why did Max More disagree with you somewhat on this?
Jonesey -- bull
hkhenson -- did he?
Jonesey -- human psychology is way too elastic for our crude psychology to be yet combined with evolution.
hkhenson -- I don't think he did, but I might be wrong
John_Ventureville -- yes, I remember him saying various other forms of psychology were better at explaining things
John_Ventureville -- I forget the full particulars
John_Ventureville -- it's in the chat log
hkhenson -- jonesey, have you studied this area at all?
Jonesey -- hkh:Yes
John_Ventureville -- I loved "The Moral Animal"
Jonesey -- and i think evolutionary psychology is still very primitive, not surprising as it is built on a base of primitive psychology and very poor understanding as yet of human genetics
hkhenson -- well, I was highly interested in it because it provided plasuable answers to problems in memetic I had been stumped on for more than a decade.
hkhenson -- memetics
Jonesey -- religion also provides plausible answers. they suck anyway
hkhenson -- have you seen my write up on the evolutionary origin of stockholm syndrome?
Jonesey -- human behaviour, like human anatomy, is very flexible.
Jonesey -- it's very easy to see what you want to see in it.
hkhenson -- do you have a better way to explain it?
Jonesey -- for instance on diet, some see us as vegetarians, some as carnivores, truth is we're both.
Jonesey -- yes, my way is to wait till a lot more data is in and stfu in the meantime and not jump to conclusions
hkhenson -- hmm
Jonesey -- how can u have ep when we don't yet even have p?
hkhenson -- well . . . I have a bit more of an urgent set of problems than you do.
hkhenson -- unless you have goons after you too.
hkhenson -- actually, jonesey, EP is the underpinnings to a scientific psychology
hkhenson -- brb
Jonesey -- hehehe
Jonesey -- it's the underpinnings to psuedoscientific overreaching
hkhenson -- do you dig evolution, esp gene based evolution?
Jonesey -- gimme those hard numbers u keep asking for
Jonesey -- of course
hkhenson -- " . . . Evolutionary psychology is an approach to psychology, in which knowledge and principles from evolutionary biology are put to use in research on the structure of the human mind. It is not an area of study, like vision, reasoning, or social behavior. It is a way of thinking about psychology that can be applied to any topic within it.
hkhenson -- "In this view, the mind is a set of information-processing machines that were designed by natural selection to solve adaptive problems faced by our hunter-gatherer ancestors. This way of thinking about the brain, mind, and behavior is changing how scientists approach old topics, and opening up new ones."
hkhenson -- any objection to these statements?
Jonesey -- it's hard to do evolutionary biology without understanding biology
Jonesey -- we don't understand psychology very well yet
Jonesey -- and constantly have to fight temptations to ascribe culturally determined behaviours to genes
hkhenson -- Take the mysterious behavior of Elizabeth Smart in Salt Lake City last year or that of Patty Hearst when she was abducted in 1974. In both cases the victims joined their captors and resisted leaving them. The evolutionary origin of this psychological trait known as the Stockholm
hkhenson -- Syndrome (or more descriptively as capture-bonding) almost certainly comes from millions of years of evolutionary selection where our ancestors--usually female ancestors--were being violently captured from one tribe to another. Those who had the inherited psychological traits
hkhenson -- rapidly socially reorient (bond) to their captors often became our ancestors and passed on the trait. Those who didn't have this trait more often became breakfast.
hkhenson -- see any problem with this explanation?
hkhenson -- genes evolved in culture.
hkhenson -- but it was the culture of hunter-gatherers
Jonesey -- i see all kinds of problems with this explanation. where are the hard numbers showing me that this traint was inherited? which genes code for it?
Jonesey -- where are all the data across all of human genetic diversity, and not just "white american females"?
John_Ventureville -- it will take time and further knowledge of genetics to hammer all the specifics out
John_Ventureville -- it does seem very plausible
John_Ventureville -- but maybe it's more like a good hypothesis than a solid fact?
Jonesey -- you've got it
Jonesey -- and that's what ep is to me
Jonesey -- bunch of interesting speculations
Jonesey -- this is not (yet) science
John_Ventureville -- the american indians could be a classic example of what Keith is discussing
Jonesey -- which american indians?
Jonesey -- lot of different grps
Jonesey -- sitting bull didn't show custer a lot of stockholm syndrome
John_Ventureville -- based on my readings I would say many (certainly not all) engaged in the behavior of kidnapping the females of rival tribes with the goal of integrating them into their own group
Jonesey -- many european tribes did that too, and the romans
John_Ventureville -- ahh!
John_Ventureville -- lol
Jonesey -- this type of discussion is fun but tough to get science out of it
John_Ventureville -- yes
Jonesey -- think helen of troy etc
John_Ventureville -- I'm not even sure if Keith is still around to discuss things with us
Jonesey -- genghiz khan also said somethin glike "there is no greater pleasure than slaughtering your enemy, burning his cities, and lying on the white bellies of his wives and daughters..."
Jonesey -- hopefully keith is off rethinking ep
John_Ventureville -- that quote was later rehashed in Arnold's "Conan the Barbarian."
Jonesey -- yep copyright infringement
Jonesey -- i bet the khan family was outraged
John_Ventureville -- their descendants got a good IP lawyer and sued!
John_Ventureville -- Tamerlane & Associates
John_Ventureville -- I believe
John_Ventureville -- : )
Jonesey -- hehehe
hkhenson -- jonesey, have you contributed to the scientific or popular literature on these subjects?
hkhenson -- I have, try here human-nature.com/nibbs/02/cults.html
Jonesey -- nope per grandma's advice, if i don't have anything good to say....
John_Ventureville -- converting Jonesey is going to be a hard sell
Jonesey -- hehehehehe
Jonesey -- i liked murray gell-mann's comment in class at cal tech, "99% of what is published is trivial, and 99% of the rest is wrong"
John_Ventureville -- upon reanimation Jonesey will review the latest on EP and finally say "I guess this is real science after all"
John_Ventureville -- sometime around the year 2080!
Jonesey -- hehe John_Ventureville
Jonesey -- i'll get to 2080 with calorie restriction
Jonesey -- i'd be 115
Jonesey -- not out of reach
John_Ventureville -- *but really pushing it*
Jonesey -- heheh yup
John_Ventureville -- being so bad at doing math in my head...
Jonesey -- 1965
John_Ventureville -- for a moment I thought you were much younger than I was
John_Ventureville -- lol
Jonesey -- hang in there bud
John_Ventureville -- I'm actually two years younger than you
Jonesey -- i'm old enough to be your uncle
John_Ventureville -- lol!
John_Ventureville -- I just don't have the discipline to go on a hardcore CR diet
John_Ventureville -- and I don't like the side effects I read about
Jonesey -- yup it's not for everyone
Jonesey -- what the constant attention from horny women attracted by leanness?
Jonesey -- yeah it's terrible
John_Ventureville -- were not talking lean here...
John_Ventureville -- more like emaciated!
Jonesey -- "oh wait..that's a bone, not a boner"
John_Ventureville -- not the way to attract women
John_Ventureville -- yep!
Jonesey -- u'd be surprised dude
Jonesey -- as men get fatter thinness makes u more and more exotic
John_Ventureville -- well, I admit it does seem to work for rock stars
Jonesey -- same thing that happened with women a few decades ago
Jonesey -- standard of beauty got thinner and thinner
John_Ventureville -- I have always been on the slender side due to family heritage
John_Ventureville -- but there is thin and then there is slender and muscular (without being overly so) which is what the ladies like
Jonesey -- lot of ladies just like thin actually, there is a diversity of tastes
John_Ventureville -- I think among younger men there are a lot of fit guys out there, but in the later years guys tend to let themselves "go to seed"
John_Ventureville -- I know some attractive gals who really go for the big lug John Goodman look
Jonesey -- yep
Jonesey -- so hkh is in luck
John_Ventureville -- lol
John_Ventureville -- I hear he has done ok in life with the females
Jonesey -- due to wily use of ep no doubt
John_Ventureville -- LOL
John_Ventureville -- most likely!
John_Ventureville -- soon the book will be coming out "How to succeed with women by using EP!"
Jonesey -- that could be an interesting line of biz, "how to use ep to get laid every time"
Jonesey -- heh gmta
John_Ventureville -- yep
hkhenson -- remember what henry kissinger said.
John_Ventureville -- "for only $49.99 all my secrets can be yours!"
hkhenson -- he put his finger right on it.
John_Ventureville -- power is an aphrodisiac
hkhenson -- yep
John_Ventureville -- classic line
hkhenson -- another way to say status.
hkhenson -- and it is just true
hkhenson -- we are for the most part descended from the guys who had 2 or three wives
hkhenson -- and not from the bozo who had none.
John_Ventureville -- interesting
John_Ventureville -- so Brigham Young was just putting EP to work for himself
hkhenson -- rock stars, political types, rich guys,
hkhenson -- indeed.
hkhenson -- he had only about one kid per woman.
hkhenson -- on average .....
hkhenson -- but with 50 women
hkhenson -- he did ok in the kid dept.
John_Ventureville -- I would have a hard time remembering all their names
John_Ventureville -- buying Christmas presents would be a real challenge
Jonesey -- disguise urself as santa and find out their names
John_Ventureville -- there you go!
Jonesey -- "lets say i was ur daddy..what would i call u..??"
John_Ventureville -- Jonesey is a man who can think on his feet!
hkhenson -- the guy who used to be a football quarterback with the sf team was a descendant of B. young
hkhenson -- must have many thousands by now.
John_Ventureville -- I'd need to have thousands of descendants to produce just one who was a NFL star
John_Ventureville -- lol!
John_Ventureville -- my grandfather did play college football (very short and very stocky guy) and in his later years would proudly talk about ruining his knees and losing his front teeth from playhing.
John_Ventureville -- gentleman, it was a very enjoyable chat
John_Ventureville -- have a good evening
John_Ventureville -- bye
Jonesey -- nite nite
Jonesey -- steve young?
John_Ventureville -- must have been steve young
John_Ventureville -- yes
Jonesey -- interesting, remember he did play at byu
John_Ventureville -- and was in the shadow of Joe Montana for years
John_Ventureville -- finally he got from under it
John_Ventureville -- I don't think he ever married
Jonesey -- gay?
John_Ventureville -- bad mormon!
John_Ventureville -- lol
Jonesey -- interesting for a descendant of by
John_Ventureville -- I think just too devoted to his career and very picky with the women he dated
John_Ventureville -- or maybe scared of the whole idea of marriage
John_Ventureville -- sometimes young men from fundamentalist faiths marry to young because they are so horny and so they jump into things prematurely
John_Ventureville -- but if they wait too long to marry they get that sexual urge a little too much under control and they learn they will not have their head explode if they don't have sex!
John_Ventureville -- that is my sociological theory for the evening
