39 replies to this topic

[DJS]

Recently my girlfriend and I got into a little, ahem... argument over how we (and our future family... [:o] ) would celebrate the holidays.

Christmas is one of the few things that I actually enjoy about Christian tradition. The family get togethers, the food, the presents... indeed the holidays are enjoyable. I am not Mr. Scrooge. I don't mind harmless Christmas songs like Rudolph the red nosed reindeer or Frosty the snow man. To me, these kinds of songs represent more of a commercialized, modern celebration. Of course, the religious banter always bothers me.

Anyway, I told my girl that instead of celebrating Christmas I would prefer to celebrate a more generic "the holidays". Needless to say, she wasn't very happy about this.

I even compromised and said that we could have our celebration on the 25th. Guys, what do you think? Am I being too firm, or not firm enough. Does it really matter what one calls a celebration? And can an Immortalist and a Catholic really make it in a world with a 60% divorce rate?

Any responses on how you personally handle the "event" of Christmas would be greatly appreciated.

Don

[chubtoad]

Something not generic for you to celebrate,
Benjamin Franklin's Birthday
January 17

You could try to combine it with Christmas so that you can both have something to celebrate.

[Utnapishtim]

Hey Don!

Nice to see you around here again.

I have never felt that in rejecting christianity I needed to reject my christian cultural legacy. The bible stories have played a tremendous role in shaping the culture we are a part of. Such influence is rooted in history. Why does the fact that christian claims are untrue mean that we have to reject all the cultural institutions that are built up around them? Must I reject the greatness of all christian art because I don't believe in the truth of the stories they depict?

The main purpose of most cultural traditions to me is that they provide a degree of continuity across a lifetime and indeed across generations and in that sense they are comforting. I don't see what is gained by rejecting them.

Do all cultural traditions really have to be rational and make perfect sense? If so why?

How do you feel about Santa Claus? And if Santa Claus is Ok then why not the Jesus story?

[Bruce Klein]

Don - I'm right there with ya...

I've wrestled with this issues as well. How does one stay true to their immortalist philosophy while also keeping the peace in the family? If one openly celebrates a religious holiday, does that mean you're somehow endorsing it? Will this send the wrong message to others who may look to you for guidance in this respect?

Susan and I have had discussed it. She understands why I think this way. However, I can't point to any great change within my family. So, I've decided the effort involved in trying to make this point about religious holidays is better placed in making change in other areas. Namely working on projects at ImmInst.

While I've not had success in my small world here in Birmingham, AL.. I can reach out to 3 or 4 people on line and help them. That's probably a much better use of my time.

Hopefully, this effort will go more towards reaching the mission of ending the blight of involuntarily death. Which is what I'm really interesetd in.

I'd celebrate Christmas and Easter very day if this would somehow ensure that no one had to die.

[Don, new Full Members are loving the bumperstickers.. Thanks]


a few religious holidays...
-------------
JAN 1 - New Year's Day has its origin in Roman times, when sacrifices were offered to Janus, the two-faced Roman deity who looked back on the past and forward to the future.

FEB 14 - St. Valentine's Day. This day is the festival of two third-century martyrs, both named St. Valentine. It is not known why this day is associated with lovers. It may derive from an old pagan festival about this time of year, or it may have been inspired by the belief that birds mate on this day.

MAR 17 - St. Patrick's Day. Patron saint of Ireland, has been honored in America since the first days of the nation. Perhaps the most notable part of the observance is the annual St. Patrick's Day parade in New York City.

APR 13 - Palm Sunday. Observed the Sunday before Easter to commemorate the entry of Jesus into Jerusalem. The procession and the ceremonies introducing the benediction of palms probably had their origins in Jerusalem.

APR 17 - First Day of Passover (Pesach). The Feast of the Passover, also called the Feast of Unleavened Bread, commemorates the escape of the Jews from Egypt. As the Jews fled, they ate unleavened bread, and from that time the Jews have allowed no leavening in their houses during Passover, bread being replaced by matzoh

APR 18 - Good Friday. The Friday before Easter, it commemorates the Crucifixion, which is retold during services from the Gospel according to St. John. A feature in Roman Catholic churches is the Liturgy of the Passion; there is no Consecration, the Host having been consecrated the previous day. The eating of hot-cross buns on this day is said to have started in England.

APR 20 - Easter Sunday. Observed in all Western Christian churches, Easter commemorates the Resurrection of Jesus. It is celebrated on the first Sunday after the full moon that occurs on or next after the vernal equinox (fixed at March 21) and is therefore celebrated between March 22 and April 25 inclusive. This date was fixed by the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325.

DEC 25 - Christmas (Feast of the Nativity). The most widely celebrated holiday of the Christian year, Christmas is observed as the anniversary of the birth of Jesus. Christmas customs are centuries old. The mistletoe, for example, comes from the Druids, who, in hanging the mistletoe, hoped for peace and good fortune. Comparatively recent is the Christmas tree, first set up in Germany in the 17th century. Colonial Manhattan Islanders introduced the name Santa Claus, a corruption of the Dutch name St. Nicholas, who lived in fourth-century Asia Minor.

REF: http://www.infopleas...a/A0862096.html

[chestnut]

Don-
ok, well any conversation that starts with "I told her 'tough noogies'" .. is doomed for failure [lol]
Yes BJ and I have had this very conversation over and over again....and i would say he was very much a Scrooge at times... [sfty]
Can a catholic and immortalist make it? YES! of course. BJ and I are proof of that. We are going on our 8th year anniversary this January and despite the occasional "ringing his neck" [!] kidding we've managed to pull through and so will you guys. Just keep talking to her and make her feel like her views are ok and there's always next Christmas to get it right.

-Chestnut

[Utnapishtim]

It is also worth baring in mind that one of the fastest ways for atheists/agnostics to sink even further in public esteem is to become known as 'the folks who hate christmas'

Is isolating ourselves from the mainstream of society to such an extent really worth paying for ideological purity?

[tbeal]

I don't think chrsitmas is even about christianity any more I think it's much more than that cause people from most of the worlds religeons celebrate it - it's more a mid winter celebration thats part of the western tradition.

[Casanova]

Well, since most of you are hardcore materialists ( how boring ) you have a lot of choices.
For the Christmas Holiday Season you could worship your car, your new computer, your digital voice recorder, your digital camera, or some new book by an atheist scientist.
A good idea would be to place your new car in your living room, where you can bow down to it, light candles for it, and say materialist prayers to it.
Why not pray to the great no-God "Chance". There you go, worship, and celebrate, "Chance".
And all you atheists must remember to celebrate the aetheist invasion of that horribly religious country Tibet, by your blood brothers, the Marxists.

[DJS]

Yeah, I'm allied with the Red Chinese because I want to live forever. [huh] The confirmation bias you possess is...hanging out a little. Would you also lump the Christians of today in with the Catholic Spaniards of the Inquisition? No, because it would conflict with your preestablished point of view.

Who are you and what do you stand for? Can you explain why my world view angers you so much? Why does an idea that maybe a couple of thousand people have around the world terrify you so?

[Utnapishtim]

Don

I guarantee you that the questions you asked of Casanova will be either

A) Ignored
B) provoke an adhominem attack.

I would be willing to stake money on his not addressing what you say directly.

[Lazarus Long]

Don, Jerome's criticism is well taken I am curious and await his reply to my comments on his post here.

I feel the issues can be addressed and he has demonstrated an ability to go beyond the two limited choices described by Jerome that have all too often been his selection; often but not always.

As for Christmas, well I suggest that all the comments here contain an element of truth. Your girlfriend reflects not merely a popular or theist position but one that reflects a "social necessity" and Casanova is all too correct in pointing out how that it is co-opted to make us all worshipers at the alter of commercialism, the concept of devotion expressed as a purchase.

I kind of thought of the idea of burning Cadillacs as yule logs kind of amusing. [lol]

When many lament the commercialization of Christmas they are also thinking about something fewer and fewer people look forward to let alone have ever experienced with respect to the family gathering concept. A gathering and feasting ritual that far predates Christianity and extends back to the very beginning of sedentary oral cultural tradition perhaps tens of thousands of ago.

The loss of that relationship is too high a price for baubles, no matter how flashy and conveniently battery operated they are.

Christmas is actually well documented as a pagan tradition that was adopted by the early church in the same manner that they routinely built upon the temples of the cultures overrun. It is no accident that so many cultures around the world celebrate solstices and equinoxes since they define the seasonal division and critical aspects of survival that were addressed through social memetics to develop resource economic constructs that assisted our evolution and confronted the feast and famine annual cycle with social organization.

[Lazarus Long]

In honor of this discussion and my own somewhat wizened perspective here are the lyrics to one of my own favorite Christmas carols

Christmas
Author: Pete Townshend
Publisher:Eel Pie Publishing Ltd. (BMI)

In an early song list, this song came immediately after "Amazing Journey." Before "pinball" was incorporated in the lyrics, the line was "playing with himself he sits and smiles."

Father:

Did you ever see the faces of children
They get so excited.
Waking up on christmas morning
Hours before the winter sun's ignited.
They believe in dreams and all they mean
Including heavens generosity.
Peeping round the door
to see what parcels are for free
In curiosity


Chorus:
And Tommy doesn't know what day it is.
He doesn't know who Jesus was or what praying is.
How can he be saved?
>From the eternal grave.

Father:

Surrounded by his friends he sits so silently,
And unaware of everything.
Playing poxy pin ball
picks his nose and smiles and
Pokes his tongue at everything.
I believe in love
but how can men who've never seen
Light be enlightened.
Only if he's cured
will his spirits future level ever heighten.

Chorus:

And Tommy doesn't know what day it is.
Doesn't know who Jesus was or what praying is.
How can he be saved?
>From the eternal grave.

Father:

Tommy can you hear me?
Tommy can you hear me?
Tommy can you hear me?
How can he be saved?

Tommy:

See me, feel me
Touch me, heal me.
See me, feel me
Touch me, heal me!

Chorus:

Tommy can you hear me?
Tommy can you hear me?
Tommy can you hear me?
How can he be saved?

[Da55id]

Jesus' birthdate is unknown. In Jesus' day birthdays were only celebrated by and for Emperors and Kings as shown in the Oxford Classical Dictionary and as corroborated by the only mention of birthdays in the Bible being of a Pharoah and King Herod. The birthtime was the day when the god/king's daemon or Genius would become most apparent. Thus confirming the rightfulness of his godlike kingship. That among other reasons is why the Hebrews did not celebrate their Birthdays. The Puritans and Pilgrims would not have dreamed of celebrating this holiday.

A current and useful question one often hears when there is some difficulty in answering a topic is "What would Jesus do?"...in that spirit, would Jesus want someone to:

*Celebrate something he would not think of doing himself - especially FOR him
*On a day and rites that are specifically of pagan origin - thus engaging in activity diametrically opposed to the Hebrew law he scrupulously followed all his life
*Go into debt for that purpose
*glorify -stuff- as the primary way of rejoicing
*tell "little white lies" to children for any reason

Or would he say - be excellent to one another all the time -under all circumstances-if you need help on how to do this - look at what I did and didn't do and try to learn why I did and didn't do it.

Interestingly when I was a young boy, almost all who called themselves christian celebrated an amazingly non-christian holiday known as Halloween. Now, a large number have chosen to respond to what they already knew - they've stopped celebrating. but many still do.

[DJS]

Hi Utna,

I have never felt that in rejecting christianity I needed to reject my christian cultural legacy. The bible stories have played a tremendous role in shaping the culture we are a part of. Such influence is rooted in history. Why does the fact that christian claims are untrue mean that we have to reject all the cultural institutions that are built up around them? Must I reject the greatness of all christian art because I don't believe in the truth of the stories they depict? -- Utna

I remember you bringing this up once before. For a while, Peter and yourself had me convinced that this position was correct. I actually gave it some serious thought.

Of course there is beauty in the writings of the bible. There is some thing very romantic about them, very attractive. Maybe it is part of the reason Christianity has been able to maintain such a strong hold on the western world. But some how I find this line of thinking to be a bit nihilistic.

"For anthropologist Jack Goody, literacy does result in a different cognitive style. The use of literacy does change cognitive operations, in the sense that the written text is used as an external memory. For instance, literacy allows complex mathematical operations during which some intermediate results must be stored. It allows long arguments because it makes it possible to make long lists of elements that prove a particular point. It allows people to think of various conceptual structures as visual templates. In this way the sketch pad aspect of writing is every bit as important as its long-term "storage" function". -- Guilds and Literacy, Pascal Boyer.

Why would I want to admire the beauty of a textual document that facilitates the pollution of rational thought?

The main purpose of most cultural traditions to me is that they provide a degree of  continuity across a lifetime and indeed across generations and in that sense they are comforting.  I don't see what is gained by rejecting them. -- Utna

Right now I just want to celebrate the holidays on my terms. It’s really that simple. I believe in this country that we are entitled to freedom of religion, and that includes atheism and agnosticism. Why should I be “leaned upon” to tow the line by a seemingly innocuous tradition?

The greater complexity, for me, comes with the question of raising a family and how to present your world view to your children. This is something that is important. I would never be forceful with my children, as, with my luck, my children would rebel and become born again. At the same time, I feel it would be necessary to at least explain my world view to my children. I would give them the best one time presentation that I could give them and then it would be their choice as to whether they were interested or not.

“Christmas is actually well documented as a pagan tradition that was adopted by the early church in the same manner that they routinely built upon the temples of the cultures overrun”. -- LL

Exactly. Which is why I am wonder why we can’t perform the same kind of maneuver. Create our own reasons for celebration and good times, thus offering an acceptable substitute to the traditional means of celebration.

Do all cultural traditions really have to be rational and make perfect sense? If so why? -- Utna

Tradition and celebration fulfills some aspect of human desire (obviously). I’m not sure how a holiday/tradition could be deemed rational or irrational. Value judgements could be placed upon the under lying reasons for the celebration, but not upon the celebrations themselves. Which is why I am back to my main point, that we should modify the under lying reasons for our celebrations.

Good to be back,
Don

Edited by DonSpanton, 10 December 2003 - 04:56 AM.

[Utnapishtim]

Why would I want to admire the beauty of a textual document that facilitates the pollution of rational thought?

How about for its aesthetic value alone? I think you are defining the utility of literacy too narrowly here, Don.

I also don't think that the sole purpose of literacy or indeed culture as a whole should be the promotion of rational thought.

Can literary texts be used unwisely? Undoubtedly. But I am still of the opinion that Art (In the broadest sense, encompassing painting, building and writing) is ultimately self-justifying, and the appreciation of it is not the means to an end but an end in itself.

A literary critic I have a lot of time for is Harold Bloom. He considers aesthetic excellence to be the sole criterion by which literary greatness can be judged and considers such excellence to be defined largely by

'mastery of figurative language, originality, cognitive power, knowledge, exuberance of diction'

By such criterion the Torah and the Gospels certainly qualify.

But I am drifting way off the subject of Christmas here.

You of course have every right to celebrate the Holiday season in any way that you wish, but I am not sure I understand the purpose of the goal.

The desire to secularise and provide intellectually respectable justifications for all our rituals and celebrations is a project for which I have little sympathy because I fail to see the payoff.

Bruce's long list of religious holidays which would need rejecting/transforming confirms me in this position even more.

For myself, and I suspect for most people, the price of rationality in this instance is simply too high.

Traditional cultural institutions gain their social bonding power largely from the memetic weight they have aquired through their longevity. They can not simply be replaced overnight by a new set, however well conceived in my view. This being the case I think that a compelling reason is need to overturn to overturn them.

[DJS]

How about for its aesthetic value alone? I think you are defining the utility of literacy too narrowly here, Don.

Every time I hear you say this I think of the artist who stated that the collapse of the twin towers was a "magnificient" sight, artistically of course. People were taken aback by the artist's level of nihilism, but from his artistic perspective he was right, the burning towers were quite magnificient. The 9/11 attacks resulted in approximately 3,000 deaths. How many deaths is the bible responsible for? It's beauty is the siren's song.

I also don't think that the sole purpose of literacy or indeed culture as a whole should be the promotion of rational thought.

This is a line of reasoning that I am not confident in responding to yet. Maybe not sole, but I would say primary. As long as freedom of belief and expression are maintained.

'mastery of figurative language, originality, cognitive power, knowledge, exuberance of diction'

By such criterion the Torah and the Gospels certainly qualify.

Yes, I am not disgreeing with you! Both are literary master pieces, but as I have stated in the previous post, both are also the textual basis for contageous memeplexes that promotes irrational thought

But I am drifting way off the subject of Christmas here.

You of course have every right to celebrate the Holiday season in any way that you wish, but I am not sure I understand the purpose of the goal.

The desire to secularise and provide intellectually respectable justifications for all our rituals and celebrations is a project for which I have little sympathy because I fail to see the payoff.

There is no immediate pay off. I admit that it would be much easier to go with the crowd, and to a certain extent I do. I'll get a tree this year because it is a nice piece of decor and smells good. I'll wrap my presents for my family just like everyone else. The differences between myself and the average Christian are actually quite subtle. I say happy holidays instead of merry christmas (I am not offended by people wishing me a merry christmas). I won't go to church. I will not say grace at a dinner table (If some one requests this of me, I usually tell them that they should give it a try. I'll give the person at least two chances to avoid confrontation and then I will just flat out tell them that I am not a Christian). I will not sing any holiday songs that contain religious inferences. I think that is about it. As you see, it's not really a huge list of things and I have never had a conflict with anyone over it.

But when raising children, matters change completely. I am only one individual who may, at most, father three children. By raising my children the way I wished I were raised I can have at least some kind of affect on the perpetuation of culture within our society. The payoff, Utna, is only possible if we try to change things, if we try to resist. If we just go along with the status quo then nothing will ever change, and the only people we will have to blame are ourselves.

Traditional cultural institutions gain their social bonding power largely from the memetic weight they have aquired through their longevity. They can not simply be replaced overnight by a new set, however well conceived in my view.  This being the case I think that a compelling reason is need to overturn to overturn them.

I'm not saying that traditions such as Christmas will be over turned anytime soon. I'm saying that the holidays should be celebrated by every Immortalist the way they see fit, and that by doing that we will create some level of change, however insignificant over a period of time. I'm also saying that the best relationship to promote successful cultural transmission of new ideas is a parent-child relationship. How do we want our children to be exposed to the world?

[bacopa]

Great Lyrics didn't realize what that one was about. some of those sixties songs had some really powerful lyrics. Obviously the Beatles contriubted Lady Madonna to the topic of religion. and that Christmas song by John Lennon which is a satirical look at Christmas. Simon and Garfunkle did Silent Night over sounds of the News telling all sorts of tragic happenings. Jethro Tull did a great Christmas Song. I'm intrigued with the dark side of Christmas.

As to celebrating the holidays I celebrate the Christian and Jewish holidays but I get down in the dumps when I hear songs associated with the Christian holidays, well mostly Christmas...too much "joyfulness" and emotion for me.

[randolfe]

Don, you are being too hard line. First of all, you are focusing on a very narrow definition of Christmas. I think you should look up a great speech by Robert Ingersol, the great atheist preacher, about Christmas.

Christmas should be celebrated because it is simply the old pagan ritual of soltice which celebrated the victory of light over darkness. The days would grow longer and spring and rebirth would finally arrive.

Christmas should be celebrated because it brings out the best in people, giving and sharing. If only on that ONE day of the year, well-meaning Christains feed the homeless and try to remind themselves of their duty to care for the less fortunate.

Celebrating Christmas means wallowing in the warmth of home, hearth, family, friends and giving. It is only negative if you make yourself think so. I can think of a strange parallel in my own life, the only time I took Holy Communion during the past fifty years.

I attended the funeral of a dear friend's father. The two of them had died days apart and I felt I should attend that funeral so the family would feel that "he" was there.

No knowing what would happen later in the service, I sat in one of the long wooden pews. I noticed my friend's sister and her atheist/Jewish husband had placed themself at the opposite end of another pew. Well, suddenly the pews commenced standing up and going to the altar in an orderly file to kneel and take Holy Communion.

I could have simply stood back and let everyone else go and then sit back down but that would have been very obvious and somewhat disruptive. So, I found myself going to ther altar with real revulsion in my heart.

I hated everything taking communion stood for. But, rationally, I simply told myself it was a meaningless exercise involving a dry bread wafer which really meant nothing but which would mean something to the other family members. So, I had my first communion in 50 years.

That might have been intellectually dishonest mentally but it was the right thing to do spiritually and humanely.

I have had very wonderful Christmas days in the past. I had more people in my life then. I would like to someday have others just half as nice.

While the idea of burning Cadillacs might be amusing, burning one's credit card would make more sense.

This is my first Christmas after 29 years of being a retail merchant. These past few years, as I rung up the sales and wrapped the gifts people were purchasing in my shop, customers would frequently complain about "all the presents they had to get".

I'll tell you what my life experience had taught me: "Just be thankful you have someone to buy gifts for."

For a totally politically-incorrect closing, I'll simply conclude: "Amen"

[DJS]

Don, you are being too hard line.

Yes, I'm told that from time to time... [B)]

First of all, you are focusing on a very narrow definition of Christmas.

I'm going by the majority interpretation of Christmas, which is of couse, Christian. I am also trying to explore how an Immortalist deals with the memetic onslaught of the holidays. You are missing my point. I am saying that Christmas (#1 mega holiday) is currently observed by too narrow a definition and that needs to be changed. I want a broad definition of Christmas, not a narrow one. That's all I'm suggesting. How's that hard line?

I attended the funeral of a dear friend's father.  The two of them had died days apart and I felt I should attend that funeral so the family would feel that "he" was there.

No knowing what would happen later in the service, I sat in one of the long wooden pews.  I noticed my friend's sister and her atheist/Jewish husband had placed themself at the opposite end of another pew.  Well, suddenly the pews commenced standing up and going to the altar in an orderly file to kneel and take Holy Communion.

I could have simply stood back and let everyone else go and then sit back down but that would have been very obvious and somewhat disruptive.  So, I found myself going to ther altar with real revulsion in my heart.

I hated everything taking communion stood for.  But, rationally, I simply told myself it was a meaningless exercise involving a dry bread wafer which really meant nothing but which would mean something to the other family members.  So, I had my first communion in 50 years.

That might have been intellectually dishonest mentally but it was the right thing to do spiritually and humanely.

I would never have received communion. That is just a difference between you and I.

[hecksheri]

I kinda like christmas. This surprises most folks that know me, but here are my reasons:

1. I get to hang out with my brothers and sometimes its almost like we are kids again...except when we have to get after the real kids.

2. I get to hang out with my nieces and nephew. They think I practically walk on water (poor deluded children) and they still like to play hard.

3. Mom cooks really good food. The family tradition is Feliz Navidad, or basically mexican food, usually cooked with venison. I typically am the only one who avoids overeating and I get the kids to myself while everyone else naps.

4. I make christmas ornaments for everyone in the family every year, each one commemorating memorable life events, ie birth of a child, bought a house, etc. and the family christmas trees are turning into mobiles of memories. If we realize our dreams of immortality, things like christmas could prove to be one of the things that make it all worthwhile in a very "human" way. (Off subject--I never really thought about it, but don't you think that when we start talking about AI as a route to immortality, these links to our humanity could be very important in retaining it, in making "friendly AI". Don't you think you should take advantage (within reason) your time in the "meat space", since there may come a time when that aspect of your immortal life is completely beyond your reach.)

5. Other than my mom insisting that she read "the christmas story" before anyone opens any presents...I really don't see what is religious about the holiday. Christmas is what you make it. I do my best to make it fun and fulfilling. I could hate it, but it wouldn't make it go away.

anyway, thats my 2 cents worth on christmas.

-sherry

[randolfe]

"Christmas is what you make it. I do my best to make it fun and fulfilling. I could hate it, but it wouldn't make it go away. "

Sherry, you have caught the spirit of Christmas which is really quite lovely. The mythical baggage really doesn't matter.

Besides, it's good for the economy.

[advancedatheist]

Here's an interview about a made-up winter solstice holiday for Secular Humanists called "HumanLight" (requires Windows Media Player):

http://www.corliss-l..._2003-12-07.wax

[Bruce Klein]

Found it! Here's the alternative I've been looking for...

Newtonmas

This page describes an exciting holiday called Newtonmas. Not many people are celebrating it yet, but it's going to be a big hit. Trust me. Read on.



Sir Isaac Newton
Scientist and Mathematician 1642 - 1727

If I have been able to see further, it was only
because I stood on the shoulders of giants.
—Sir Isaac Newton

Sir Isaac Newton was born 25 December, 1642. He made important advances in science and mathematics, held a professorship at Trinity College without joining the clergy, and had a thing for apples. What more could you ask of a secular holiday's figurehead?

http://homepage.mac..../newtonmas.html

Other Alternative-Holiday Fun: http://www.aleph.se/...n/holidays.html

[DJS]

Now that sounds cool. I think next year I will give Newtonmas a try. [thumb] The idea definitely has an edge to it.

[micah]

Christmas is not Christian anymore...and it wasn't Christian in the first place. The Catholics adopted it from the pagans, and made a pagan holy day into Jesus' birthday. So if you celebrate Christmas, you're really endorsing paganism, rather than Christianity.

It's just like "Sunday". Most of us don't worship the sun anymore, but we still call it "sunday". Do we really need to change that?

-micah

[DJS]

Christmas is not Christian anymore...and it wasn't Christian in the first place. The Catholics adopted it from the pagans, and made a pagan holy day into Jesus' birthday. So if you celebrate Christmas, you're really endorsing paganism, rather than Christianity.

It's just like "Sunday". Most of us don't worship the sun anymore, but we still call it "sunday". Do we really need to change that?

-micah

I don't agree. The original state of something does not determine it's current identity. Viewed from an historical perspective,"traditional" rituals and celebrations are just the newest variation in a long chain of variations that have continued to change within humanity through both evolutionary or revolutionary means.

Let's say that everyday you go to the bakery and gorge yourself on two dozen cookies. Then you notice a gym next door to the bakery. So you decide to start going to the gym after your daily binges. Eventually you stop going to the bakery altogether and decide to just go double time to the gym. Now at the end of this sequence are you a cookie eater or an exercise person?

If instead you are trying to argue that this is largely an issue of semantics, then I disagree on this point as well. If semantics are so unimportant, then why must it be I that gives ground on such matters? Notice that the Christians took the pagan holiday and renamed it. We should do the same. How about Newtonmas. [lol] [thumb] It took Christianity quite a while to replace the old pagan traditions. In fact, some of the traditions proved impossible to erase completely, which is why they were integrated into the Christian rituals -- a necessary compromise. If we could be as lucky as Christianity was, December 25th could hold a very different meaning 300 years from now, pocket change for an Immortalist. [sfty]

You're in serious denial if you think Christmas isn't a Christian holiday. Frankly, you don't get more Christian than Christmas.

But still,

Nice to hear from you

Don

Edited by DonSpanton, 01 January 2004 - 08:24 PM.

[Da55id]

The problem is indeed semantics - but perhaps not the way it's conventionally thought of. To illustrate, a billionaire has a definition which is falsifiable. If I say I'm a US Billionaire then someone could legitimately determine the truth of this statement because there is one or at least only a few acceptable definitions for the word billionaire.

Which brings us to the question...who gets to define words?

There was once a man who invited folks to "come - be my follower". Should he be the one to define what it means to be his follower?

I also am of the understanding that Newton's parents listed all of their children as having been born on Dec 25th as a form of religious protest. Thus, it is unlikely that he was actually born on that date. Seems like everybody wants to celebrate on that date, but no good candidates were ACTUALLY born on that date...

Unless of course you count me. I was born on Dec 25th, 1952. Well I'll be...

[DJS]

Well Jesus probably wasn't born on the 25th either, but that didn't seem to be a problem for the Christians. [sfty]

I am curious, what were Newton's parents protesting?

Also, I've always heard it stink to be born on Christmas... less presents. [ang]

New name for Christmas, how about ... Methuselah Mousemas? hehe.

[Da55id]

It would most certainly have been a problem for the earliest Christians.

Re: Newton's parents protest...From MMP Contributor Ben Best's well respected page...http://www.benbest.com/history/xmas.html

"Some non-religious people have attempted to combine conformity and rebellion by celebrating Isaac Newton's birthday. But it is doubtful that Isaac Newton was born on Christmas Day. Isaac's Anglican parents listed December 25th on the birth certificates of all their children as a protest against the anti-Christmas Cromwell government."

I've been present as long as I can remember

Mousemas - pretty funny!

[treonsverdery]

I like the idea of there being more light
might be thing where the first time you or a family member is able to tell theres more minutes of daylight you feast n giftify

That was early Jan this year
the 21st or 22nd it was, I was able to tell or feel it later than that