14 replies to this topic

[M.speciosa]

I know this isn't necessarily a "Nootropic", but I've got a quick question about B-vitamins: Someone mentioned in a thread here that mega-RDA B-vitamin supplements can be bad for your health. Does anyone here know how true this statement is? I take a B-100 Complex daily, so it worried me a bit hearing that. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[M.speciosa]

anyone?

[bgwithadd]

I haven't read anything to that effect. High B doses are considered very helpful for a lot of disorders of the brain, and they are large, complex organic molecules. It seems unlikely they would do much harm, even at scientologist levels.

[4eva]

I don't think taking a b-complex is mega-dosing.

I don't see how taking high doses of b vitamins if they are water soluable can cause problems. Some forms of some b vitamins may not be water soluable - pantethine is one perhaps.

Some peope use the term expensive urine to refer to supplements not absorbed and now the issue in question is safety.

I think high doses of water soluable vitamins is safe. How could they not be safe if they are water soluable?

Edited by 4eva, 05 November 2008 - 08:48 AM.

[JLL]

I'm not sure whether you'd count my experiment as mega-dosing, but I did a lot more than the RDA for a few weeks just to try it.

You're welcome to read about it on my blog (the first post is here, the conclusion is here).

[spaceistheplace]

I looked at your blog and it stated that you take 100-200% RDA of B vitamins. This is not megadosing.

The one I take for instance:

Thiamin (Vitamin B-1)(as thiamin HCI, thiamine cocarboxylase) 50 mg 3,333%
Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2) (as riboflavin, riboflavin 5' phosphate) 50 mg 2,941%
Niacin (as inositol hexaniacinate) 100 mg 500%
Vitamin B-6 (as pyridoxine HCI, pyridoxal 5' phosphate, PAK HCI) 80 mg 4,000%
Folic Acid 800 mcg 200%
Vitamin B-12 (as dibencozide, methylcobalamin) 500 mcg 8,333%
d-Biotin 200 mcg 67%
Pantothenic Acid(as pantethine, d-calcium pantothenate) 50 mg 500%
Inositol Hexaniacinate 130 mg *
Soy lecithin 100 mg *
PABA (para-aminobenzoic acid) 50 mg *
PAK (pyridoxine alpha-ketoglutarate) 50 mg *
Phosphatidyl Choline (from soy lecithin) 40 mg *
Inositol (as inositol hexaniacinate) 26 mg *
Alpha-Lipoic Acid 100 mcg *
* Daily Value not established.

[Zoroaster]

I know this isn't necessarily a "Nootropic", but I've got a quick question about B-vitamins: Someone mentioned in a thread here that mega-RDA B-vitamin supplements can be bad for your health. Does anyone here know how true this statement is? I take a B-100 Complex daily, so it worried me a bit hearing that. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Just to echo what's already been said, your B-100 complex does not contain "mega-doses" of b12. Real mega-dosers regularly inject 5,000% or more of the B-12 RDA. Since B-12 is water-soluble 300% or even 900% of the the RDA taken orally will have no ill effect. The excess will just be urinated out. One should always be careful when megadosing, but you don't have to worry.

[JLL]

I looked at your blog and it stated that you take 100-200% RDA of B vitamins. This is not megadosing.

300-500%, actually.

[Ghostrider]

I know this isn't necessarily a "Nootropic", but I've got a quick question about B-vitamins: Someone mentioned in a thread here that mega-RDA B-vitamin supplements can be bad for your health. Does anyone here know how true this statement is? I take a B-100 Complex daily, so it worried me a bit hearing that. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Just to echo what's already been said, your B-100 complex does not contain "mega-doses" of b12. Real mega-dosers regularly inject 5,000% or more of the B-12 RDA. Since B-12 is water-soluble 300% or even 900% of the the RDA taken orally will have no ill effect. The excess will just be urinated out. One should always be careful when megadosing, but you don't have to worry.

I occasionally take Now Food's B-50 complex, even 1/3 of a pill will turn my urine bright neon yellow. I imagine that B-100 is too much.

[REGIMEN]

I know this isn't necessarily a "Nootropic", but I've got a quick question about B-vitamins: Someone mentioned in a thread here that mega-RDA B-vitamin supplements can be bad for your health. Does anyone here know how true this statement is? I take a B-100 Complex daily, so it worried me a bit hearing that. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Just to echo what's already been said, your B-100 complex does not contain "mega-doses" of b12. Real mega-dosers regularly inject 5,000% or more of the B-12 RDA. Since B-12 is water-soluble 300% or even 900% of the the RDA taken orally will have no ill effect. The excess will just be urinated out. One should always be careful when megadosing, but you don't have to worry.

I wonder, are there any other water-soluble "nutrients" that you could mention? One's that could be maxed out with the only concern being that the (costly?) excess is urinated out? I would sincerely like to know: perhaps there are other vitamins/minerals to which this practice should be implemented. Hot Italian Beef Vitamin would be my first choice for daily injection. ...om-yomyomyom...

[Harvey Newstrom]

As other people have mentioned, taking a few times the RDA does not count as mega-dosing.

However, I am concerned at how many people think that B-vitamins are non-toxic because they are water-soluble. Every nutrient can be toxic in high enough doses. Even water can be toxic or fatal if consumed to excess.

B1 (Thiamine) toxicity includes muscle tremors, fluid accumulation in the tissues, skin inflammation, nervousness, heart palpitation, allergies, altered thyroid and insulin production, vitamin B6 decrease.

B2 (Riboflavin) toxicity includes itching, numbness, skin burning sensations, skin prickling sensations. (Dark urine is a non-toxic side-effect.)

B3 (Niacin) toxicity includes skin deterioration, gout, liver deterioration, headaches, ulcers, blood sugar decrease. (Flushing, nausea, itching are non-toxic side-effects.) (The niacinamide form has the same toxicity symptoms and side-effects at higher dosages, and does not seem to help cholesterol levels as the niacin form.) (People on high B3 dosages should have their liver function checked regularly.)

B5 (Pantothenate) toxicity includes liver impairment.

B6 (Pyridoxine) toxicity includes decreased feeling in extremities, supressed lactation, emotional agitation. (Increased dream recall is a non-toxic side-effect.)

B12 (Cobalamin) toxicity (rare) includes numbness of parts of body, itch, burning or pricking feeling, fatty liver, kidney problems. (Increased color in dreams, headache, giddiness, excitement are non-toxic side-effect.)

Bc (Folate) toxicity includes gastrointestinal upset, emotional agitation, nervousness, altered sleep patterns, possible allergic skin reactions. (Vivid dreaming, inhibited zinc absorption are non-toxic side-effects.)

Bh (Inositol) toxicity includes nausea, vomiting, dizziness, high blood pressure, liver disease, kidney disease, cardiovascular disease, acne. (Diarrhea is a non-toxic side-effect.)

Bp (Choline) toxicity includes nausea, diarrhea, abdominal cramps, decreased vitamin B6 levels.

Bt (Carnitine) toxicity includes pupil dilation, mouth watering, diarrhea, nausea.

Bw (Biotin) toxicity includes reduced insulin release, decreased vitamin C and B6 levels, skin eruptions, elevated blood sugar.

Bx (PABA) toxicity includes fatty changes in liver, fatty changes in kidney, fatty changes in heart, nausea.

[bgwithadd]

I don't think that water solubility means something is 100% safe, but I also take %50,000 of the rda for b12 with no problem so far. It's actually difficult to not get enough of most of the b vitamins and it's mostly b12 that's worth supplementing.

[REGIMEN]

As other people have mentioned, taking a few times the RDA does not count as mega-dosing.

However, I am concerned at how many people think that B-vitamins are non-toxic because they are water-soluble. Every nutrient can be toxic in high enough doses.

This was the answer I was hoping to instigate concerning the "common sense safety" consensus implied by water-solubility of any vitamin.

Excellent information; thank you.

Edited by REGIMEN, 12 November 2008 - 06:21 AM.

[dumbdumb]

Is high-dose vitamin B, in the forms that are being discussed in this thread, essentially the same thing as sulbutiamine - or is there a major difference?

[medicineman]

(1) Seven adults developed progressive sensory ataxia and profound limb impairment of
position and vibration sense after consumption of large daily doses of pyridoxine (2 to 6
g) for 4 -40 months (3).
(2) Daily doses as low as 500 mg of vitamin B6 may result in neuropathy (5).
(3) Sensory neuropathy from low-dose pyridoxine occurred in individuals ingesting 0.1 to
4.0 g for 6 years (2).
(4) Photosensitive lesions, vomiting, and peripheral neuropathy developed in children
with Down's syndrome being treated with high doses of pyridoxine (1).
(5) 103 women demonstrated impaired neurological function while attending a private
clinic and ingesting an average of 117 + 92 mg of pyridoxine for a period ranging from 6
months to 5 years (3).
(6) Acute sensory neuropathy-neuronopathy from pyridoxine developed in an individual
ingesting 61 g for 3 days (2).
(7) Excessive amounts of pyridoxine appear to cause degeneration of dorsal root ganglia
(4).
(8) Daily digestion of a high dose B-vitamin was associated with an acneiform eruption
that promptly improved after discontinuation of the vitamin (6).
(9) A woman exposed for 13 years to high daily doses of vitamin B6 (up to 10 g)
developed sensory neuropathy with a slight motor component (2).

There is no documentation of sulbutiamine being toxic, but it is a thiamine derivative. Thiamine usually produces no long term effects even at large doses, but taking too much at one time produces the toxic effects one gentleman here listed. Vitamin b6 is the real baddy. Its damage takes 2-3 years to fully recover. and it comes on after chronic ingestion. by the time you feel anything, you already done the damage.

Enjoy.