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Living forever. Will it make you happier?


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#31 brokenportal

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 03:48 AM

I wouldn't say we're like disposible napkins. The way I see it, human lives more are like priceless tapistries. And death is like the dutiful janitor that knows no better than to toss out the tapestries amoung the used tissues and disposible debris.


Fixed.


Im not sure I understand exactly what your saying again. Are you saying that its our duty to die?


No, just that it's death's duty to clean up.


I see, In that case then Ide say that "careless" did fit much better.

#32 fatboy

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 04:30 AM

I wouldn't say we're like disposible napkins. The way I see it, human lives more are like priceless tapistries. And death is like the dutiful janitor that knows no better than to toss out the tapestries amoung the used tissues and disposible debris.


Fixed.


Im not sure I understand exactly what your saying again. Are you saying that its our duty to die?


No, just that it's death's duty to clean up.


I see, In that case then Ide say that "careless" did fit much better.


... used tissues vs. priceless tapestries ... priceless tapestries vs. used tissues ... it all ends up being cleaned up one way or the other. But I do think I like the "careless" interpretation better, I just don't believe it is all.

#33 brokenportal

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 06:30 AM

I wouldn't say we're like disposible napkins. The way I see it, human lives more are like priceless tapistries. And death is like the dutiful janitor that knows no better than to toss out the tapestries amoung the used tissues and disposible debris.


Fixed.


Im not sure I understand exactly what your saying again. Are you saying that its our duty to die?


No, just that it's death's duty to clean up.


I see, In that case then Ide say that "careless" did fit much better.


... used tissues vs. priceless tapestries ... priceless tapestries vs. used tissues ... it all ends up being cleaned up one way or the other. But I do think I like the "careless" interpretation better, I just don't believe it is all.


This makes me think that you think death is something like a neccessity rather than a random accident or flaw.

In that case I guess you may be right that at one time death may have been a neccessity, so as to evolve us, possibly from one celled organisms up through all the creatures that may have led us to what we are today. But now that we dont just swim around in a puddle of goo or grunt and burn rabbits over pile of red hot rocks, now that we go to the moon and communicate wirelessly and have electricity and all that, physical evolution is becoming less and less of a neccessity. Its time to evolve into human capital and start investing in evolving our minds. The grim reaper would be careless indeed to continue discarding people at this point. Our ancestry suffered long and hard to bring us to this cusp of our destiny and its up to us to be sure that we take that next step, we owe it to them to be successful and pioneer the universe.

Edited by brokenportal, 16 December 2008 - 06:33 AM.


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#34 Vgamer1

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 07:13 AM

Did we decide on an answer yet? Is it possible to open a poll for this thread so we can see a percentage?

I wonder what I'll put for my poll choice...

Edited by Vgamer1, 16 December 2008 - 07:14 AM.


#35 JohnDoe1234

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 08:06 AM

It will make me very happy to know I can go outside sit under a tree and look at the cloud's shapes without worrying about dying later.

Damn straight!

In all seriousness, I don't think *we* as mortals with brains as small as ours could answer this question. But... What would stop a superintelligent immortal entity from drugging itself into happiness, or as Marvin Minsky would put it "...turning off all internal critics..." ?

EDIT: Grammar

Edited by Joseph, 16 December 2008 - 08:15 AM.


#36 brokenportal

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 08:15 AM

Did we decide on an answer yet? Is it possible to open a poll for this thread so we can see a percentage?

I wonder what I'll put for my poll choice...


There are polls for it around here somewhere. If you cant find any Ill try to dig some up tomorrow.

You wonder what youll poll?

With the big 8 to pursue I cant imagine things getting dull. and like Joseph says, there will be increasingly more options for creating happiness, like turning of internal critics.

#37 fatboy

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 02:43 AM

This makes me think that you think death is something like a neccessity rather than a random accident or flaw.


Big chill or big crush. Take your pick.

With the big 8 to pursue I cant imagine things getting dull. and like Joseph says, there will be increasingly more options for creating happiness, like turning of internal critics.


I look forward to it.

#38 thughes

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 04:14 PM

In that case I guess you may be right that at one time death may have been a neccessity, so as to evolve us, possibly from one celled organisms up through all the creatures that may have led us to what we are today. But now that we dont just swim around in a puddle of goo or grunt and burn rabbits over pile of red hot rocks, now that we go to the moon and communicate wirelessly and have electricity and all that, physical evolution is becoming less and less of a neccessity. Its time to evolve into human capital and start investing in evolving our minds.


Oh its even better than that. With upcoming biotechnology we will eventually get to direct our own evolution. Evolution will not stop just because we are not dying.

True, blind evolution may find some answers we won't (over extremely long periods of time), but again, we may find some answers blind evolution wouldn't (over much shorter periods of time), so it may all balance.

- Tracy

#39 fatboy

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 01:03 AM

... physical evolution is becoming less and less of a neccessity.



When I think about it ...

The embodiment of consciousness will either have to evolve to a state where it can exist in a background broth at 3K, or evolve to a state where it can survive (?) complete implosion, or evolve to a state where it is disembodied.

Or else there are no immortals.

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#40 brokenportal

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 01:18 AM

Evolution will not stop just because we are not dying.

True, blind evolution may find some answers we won't (over extremely long periods of time), but again, we may find some answers blind evolution wouldn't (over much shorter periods of time), so it may all balance.



Exactly, the physical evolution will slow down and intellectual evolution will speed up. Some obvious examples are there are less pressures, like, the sick are being helped instead of dying off, and mates are chosen less on strength and more for intelligence more and more. Plus tools for enhancing our brains, ie, internet and upcoming transhuman advancements are bulking up and evolving our brain power.

By doing that we will be able to figure out how to make ourselves happier and happier.

#41 cyborgdreamer

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 04:16 AM

... physical evolution is becoming less and less of a neccessity.



When I think about it ...

The embodiment of consciousness will either have to evolve to a state where it can exist in a background broth at 3K, or evolve to a state where it can survive (?) complete implosion, or evolve to a state where it is disembodied.

Or else there are no immortals.


I'm hoping we can escape to an alternate universe.

#42 brokenportal

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 05:20 AM

... physical evolution is becoming less and less of a neccessity.



When I think about it ...

The embodiment of consciousness will either have to evolve to a state where it can exist in a background broth at 3K, or evolve to a state where it can survive (?) complete implosion, or evolve to a state where it is disembodied.

Or else there are no immortals.


I'm hoping we can escape to an alternate universe.


Well, you will have plenty of time to think about and help work that out. If we can get something like sens done in 20 - 200 years then Im sure we can figure that out if we spare ourselves a good 20,000 - 200,000 years at some point for it, especially with a singularity that will probably have reached a power so strong that youll be able to beam yoiurself to the other side of the universe and back in the blink of an eye.

#43 medicineman

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 06:45 PM

but evolution is descent with modification based on pressures imposed on us. without pressure on our survival, how are we to evolve, when there is no need to evolve???
intellectual evolution was necessary at one point. think about it. now we run off to the grocery store to buy our milk and food, when back than, we had to go head to head against natures fiercest claws (and we almost succumbed to extinction 75,000 years ago).

and about the sick helped with medicine, that is actually a hindrance to evolution. In darwins Descent of Man, he states that point clearly, and than states that it would be great evil to cut medicine to the sick for evolution. And about mate selection, it was not always about strength. The evolution of morals, art, comedy, singing, and other evolutionary wasteful ideas were due to mate selection.. Scientists have had a very hard time finding the biological origin of things such as art. Philosophers like Foucoult place the idea thanks to social construction. But I disagree. At one point, being moral, being able to create art, singing, and being witty and funny helped our pleistocene ancestors get laid. The Mating Mind is a good book for anyone interested in Sexual Selection and how it seems more likely that it was responsible for evolutionary wasteful items, such as the Bird of Paradise beautiful tail, art, etc.

Edited by medicineman, 21 December 2008 - 06:53 PM.


#44 fatboy

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 12:51 AM

... physical evolution is becoming less and less of a neccessity.



When I think about it ...

The embodiment of consciousness will either have to evolve to a state where it can exist in a background broth at 3K, or evolve to a state where it can survive (?) complete implosion, or evolve to a state where it is disembodied.

Or else there are no immortals.


I'm hoping we can escape to an alternate universe.


That could work. Especially if they are coming and going all the time. But it would still seem to require disembodiment.

#45 cyborgdreamer

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 02:12 AM

... physical evolution is becoming less and less of a neccessity.



When I think about it ...

The embodiment of consciousness will either have to evolve to a state where it can exist in a background broth at 3K, or evolve to a state where it can survive (?) complete implosion, or evolve to a state where it is disembodied.

Or else there are no immortals.


I'm hoping we can escape to an alternate universe.


That could work. Especially if they are coming and going all the time. But it would still seem to require disembodiment.


That's fine with me as long as I can retain my consciousness, memories, and personality once I get there.

#46 fatboy

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 03:22 AM

... physical evolution is becoming less and less of a neccessity.



When I think about it ...

The embodiment of consciousness will either have to evolve to a state where it can exist in a background broth at 3K, or evolve to a state where it can survive (?) complete implosion, or evolve to a state where it is disembodied.

Or else there are no immortals.


I'm hoping we can escape to an alternate universe.


That could work. Especially if they are coming and going all the time. But it would still seem to require disembodiment.


That's fine with me as long as I can retain my consciousness, memories, and personality once I get there.

aye, there's the rub.

#47 Ben

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 01:43 AM

Living makes me happy now (you've really no excuse in a Western country), so living forever would allow me to be happier for longer.

It's not like I'm happy now because I think to myself that one day this will all end and I better make the most of it. No, I'm happy because right now my life is excellent and it gives me joy. I'm not looking into the future and drawing philosophical conclusions that could affect my present mood.

#48 fatboy

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 02:47 AM

Living makes me happy now (you've really no excuse in a Western country), so living forever would allow me to be happier for longer.

It's not like I'm happy now because I think to myself that one day this will all end and I better make the most of it. No, I'm happy because right now my life is excellent and it gives me joy. I'm not looking into the future and drawing philosophical conclusions that could affect my present mood.


Happiness and meaningfulness are two different beasts. Blame medicineman for conflating them, not Heidegger.

#49 Shannon Vyff

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 03:45 AM

I doubt it would make me happier really, as I don't believe in any such thing as actually living forever--I'm happy each day I live and thankful for my life, I'm sure it would be the same after millions of "years" or whatever the measurement would be when I left Earth. Right now Scientists are debating whether or not we take a second off the clocks this New Year's. It already was agreed upon as being done by those who follow the Sun based clock since Earth has to do this every few years, we are an hour slower than a few hundred years ago (our orbit slows each year) other scientists are now protesting that it should be based on the atomic clocks not attached to our sun at all--arguments ensue upon which systems may be effected, which governments use what, which airlines, how will the net cope... The answer will be on what prevails this New Year's, but some day I think if we all live millions of years and are elsewhere than Earth we'll have different time and days/years won't mean the same things at all :) If the atomic clock scientists prevail our descendants will be getting "rising in the morn" at vastly different hours than we do now :p

#50 Ben

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 03:55 AM

Living makes me happy now (you've really no excuse in a Western country), so living forever would allow me to be happier for longer.

It's not like I'm happy now because I think to myself that one day this will all end and I better make the most of it. No, I'm happy because right now my life is excellent and it gives me joy. I'm not looking into the future and drawing philosophical conclusions that could affect my present mood.


Happiness and meaningfulness are two different beasts. Blame medicineman for conflating them, not Heidegger.


If they are actually different then they're both highly related to each other. My life is meaningful now and I could honestly keep doing this day in and day out for millions of years.

I don't wake up every morning thinking that one day I'll be released from life so I better make the most of it. I wake up and just experience life. I could repeat the process indefinitely because really all I feel is the present so if there was an infinite loop then I would not even perceive it. That is of course if everyone else lived for the same amount of time.

Edited by Ben - Aus, 31 December 2008 - 03:56 AM.


#51 fatboy

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 04:01 AM

Right now Scientists are debating whether or not we take a second off the clocks this New Year's ... but some day I think if we all live millions of years and are elsewhere than Earth we'll have different time and days/years won't mean the same things at all


Time is just an artifact we use to make sense of now.

Edited by fatboy, 31 December 2008 - 04:11 AM.


#52 fatboy

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 04:09 AM

If they are actually different then they're both highly related to each other.


I would argue that any correlation you observe is purely incidental.

I don't wake up every morning thinking that one day I'll be released from life so I better make the most of it.


Why not?

I wake up and just experience life.


Me too.

I could repeat the process indefinitely because really all I feel is the present so if there was an infinite loop then I would not even perceive it.


Me too.

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#53 brokenportal

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 09:52 PM

I doubt it would make me happier really,


This same life is enjoyable, on earth with what we have and all, but what do you think about the upcoming ability to pursue the big 8?


If they are actually different then they're both highly related to each other.



True, I think that the big 8 might be the meaning of life, and I know that pursuing them will certainly make me happy, and Im sure many others think the same thing. I could be wrong but thats where my thoughts are at with that.

#54 fatboy

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 02:56 AM

True, I think that the big 8 might be the meaning of life, and I know that pursuing them will certainly make me happy, and Im sure many others think the same thing. I could be wrong but thats where my thoughts are at with that.


Instead of looking for someplace to hang your hat, you might want to consider keeping it on your head.

#55 markm

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 06:08 AM

The thing about life is that it can be excruciatingly painful. Without getting too deep into my own personal business, I can attest to how hard and tiresome existence can become. Will living forever make one happier? No, certainly not. Mere existence does not equate happiness. Like an earlier poster said, life extension only gives an individual a longer time line on which to find happiness. It is very much an instrumental concept.

#56 imarobot

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 10:22 PM

I don't wake up every morning thinking that one day I'll be released from life so I better make the most of it. I wake up and just experience life. I could repeat the process indefinitely because really all I feel is the present so if there was an infinite loop then I would not even perceive it. That is of course if everyone else lived for the same amount of time.


I do wake up every morning with the stress that time is running out. That stress can be incapacitating. A short life can seem too difficult to make the effort with that new project, to improve at something, to make a major change, to fix mistakes, to experiment. Immortality can take a lot of the pressure off of someone like me who tends toward anxiety. If I could live forever, paradoxically, I'd probably live more fully immediately than I do now. Without the ultimate deadline, I'd finally have the time to succeed at my pace. The emotional hurdles caused by the fear would be gone, freeing me to tackle whatever I want, no matter how long it takes.

So yes, living forever would make me happier. A lot happier.

Edited by imarobot, 03 January 2009 - 10:43 PM.


#57 JohnDoe1234

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 05:58 AM

I do wake up every morning with the stress that time is running out. That stress can be incapacitating. A short life can seem too difficult to make the effort with that new project, to improve at something, to make a major change, to fix mistakes, to experiment. Immortality can take a lot of the pressure off of someone like me who tends toward anxiety. If I could live forever, paradoxically, I'd probably live more fully immediately than I do now. Without the ultimate deadline, I'd finally have the time to succeed at my pace. The emotional hurdles caused by the fear would be gone, freeing me to tackle whatever I want, no matter how long it takes.

So yes, living forever would make me happier. A lot happier.


Though I don't really feel anxiety much, I agree completely with this. If I were told that I was given an indefinite lifespan I wouldn't feel like I have to try to earn a living and build up a financial nest egg right now and I would try to have more fun. It would give me more time to just sit and think about things and work on my projects.

I talked to a friend recently and he told me that he was more interested in leaving a legacy through his work (though possibly incomplete) and leaving a mark than extending his lifespan and getting more work done. Though he isn't opposed to others extending their lifespans which is good.

More time would definitely make me happier in my current state.

#58 fatboy

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 08:56 AM

I do wake up every morning with the stress that time is running out. That stress can be invigorating.


Try this instead ... you might find it a much better place to be ... while still being in the same place.

Edited by fatboy, 04 January 2009 - 09:07 AM.


#59 Cyberbrain

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 11:13 PM

I keep hearing that if people where born immortal, they wouldn't spend time doing anything other then having fun. Which could lead to boredom. But what people are forgetting is transhumanism. First off, there is no fountain of youth so humans will not one day suddenly become immortal. It will be transitionary. We will gradually evolve into immortal beings going from one type of body to another.

Here is an example: http://www.imminst.o...o...c=21747&hl=.

Therefore, there will be more to life then just well being. There will be evolution, in both mind and body.

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#60 technetium

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 07:33 PM

I am already happy, which is why I want to live forever!




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