263 replies to this topic

[Moonbeam]

Americans usually get guns at an early age.

Come on, be realistic here. Most anti-gunners wouldn't consider that a picture of an American. That's simply a lump of tissue, (albeit with a completely unique genetic code, go figure.) that is to excised at will or whim.

And not all pro-gunners would consider that people should be prevented from controlling what goes on in their own bodies, either. It seems that most people have their own favorites amongst rights that should and should not be protected, instead of allowing maximum freedom to all.

Luckily, probably neither right will be taken anytime in the forseeable future, since both sides need the groups of people with their various oppositions to freedom to keep getting elected. Republicans will never get rid of abortion and lose that carrot to lead their followers; same with Democrats and guns. You never know tho; stranger things have happened. But really you can't ever get rid of either, even with laws; it just makes them both much more dangerous, and increases the already huge number of people criminalized in our society by the restriction of basic freedoms.

[inawe]

Murder rate in the US is the highest in the industrialized world. 4.3 per 100,000, as compared to, let's say, Netherlands 1.1

these kinds of comparisons border on meaningless. By insinuating that the US has a higher murder rate in comparison to the Netherlands precisely because it has less restricted access to handguns you make at least 3 different fallacious arguments at once.

You assume the populations have similar demographics (they do not).

you assume a country of comparable size to New Hampshire is comparable to the US as a whole (New Hampshire also has a comparable murder rater at 1.4, and has some of the most liberal gun laws).

And of course you assume it is because of our gun laws that the US has a higher murder rate, and not because of any other number of factors.

This was one sentence of one post.

Your comment on my post doesn’t border, it is plain meaningless. I only mentioned the Netherlands because I was following brainbox post. I could just as well have referred to any other industrialized country, for instance France, 1.7 per 100,000.
You are a little bit confused. The point here is not to try to find excuses of why the murder rate in the US is too high. Of course demographics and population density are important factor. As well as discipline, as I pointed out in a previous post. But once we understand the conditions are not optimal for no-gun control at all, what do we do? And I think we are looking at the whole country not just New Hampshire.
When he was running for candidate for candidate for president, Giuliani tried to earn a good grade from the NRA. But years ago, before he morphed into whatever he is now, Giuliani was mayor of New York city. He was very frustrated at the opposition to common sense measures. Here is what he had to say about the NRA:

The influence of the NRA on US politics would be comical if it didn’t have serious consequences

[inawe]

[luv2increase]

The NRA is our friend here in the States, and the organization saves many human lives.


The Immortality Institute should endorse them for their love of human life by means of protecting the human ability of self-defense, and through animal population control which saves many human lives.

[sUper GeNius]

The NRA is our friend here in the States, and the organization saves many human lives.


The Immortality Institute should endorse them for their love of human life by means of protecting the human ability of self-defense, and through animal population control which saves many human lives.

An interesting tidbit. You have these PETA groups that are adamantly against hunting. Did you know that hunters are the *largest* private financial supporters of the environment, funded through licensing fees? PETA donates something like 1% of what the hunting population raises. There are a number of states that have 'Right to Hunt" amendments for their states, guaranteeing that right.

[sUper GeNius]

Ted's not so subtle views on the right to protect oneself, and where that right comes from. If you can separate the image-promoting from the rest, you'll see some very interesting concepts promoted. I agree with him more than I disagree.

Edited by FuLL meMbeR, 16 November 2008 - 08:39 PM.

[lightowl]

"I want to have the right to kill anyone I think should be killed. Justice and trial be damned."

[sUper GeNius]

"I want to have the right to kill anyone I think should be killed. Justice and trial be damned."

That's some of the stuff that should be filtered. Just Ted's fluff to keep the image alive, which is the source of his livelihood, like other celebrities. Concentrate on his view on the obligation to defend one's family and from where that obligation and right is derived. It seems self-evident to me, perhaps implied by the constitution of the United States. The implication is certainly stronger IMO than a woman's right to have an abortion.

Edited by FuLL meMbeR, 16 November 2008 - 09:41 PM.

[biknut]

An interesting tidbit. You have these PETA groups that are adamantly against hunting. Did you know that hunters are the *largest* private financial supporters of the environment, funded through licensing fees? PETA donates something like 1% of what the hunting population raises. There are a number of states that have 'Right to Hunt" amendments for their states, guaranteeing that right.

Deer reproduce like Rats. If hunters didn't help control the population there would be diseased and starving Deer all over Texas, and the rest of the country.

[sUper GeNius]

An interesting tidbit. You have these PETA groups that are adamantly against hunting. Did you know that hunters are the *largest* private financial supporters of the environment, funded through licensing fees? PETA donates something like 1% of what the hunting population raises. There are a number of states that have 'Right to Hunt" amendments for their states, guaranteeing that right.

Deer reproduce like Rats. If hunters didn't help control the population there would be diseased and starving Deer all over Texas, and the rest of the country.

Of course. And PETA always protests deer shoots. PETA is a lost cause. Until a large majority of people in this country give up meat and leather products, PETA seems to me to be a bunch of loons. Just my opinion though...

Edited by FuLL meMbeR, 18 November 2008 - 01:41 AM.

[sUper GeNius]

I wonder whether you all will find this interesting. You are familiar with the ACLU, that stalwart defender of the constitution? Well, they have publicly stated that they will not defend gun owner's rights, despite the Heller ruling. Ha! Check it out, google it. You know why? Because their organization would cease to exist as their liberal money donors closed their purses tight. Friggin hypocrites.

Addendum: The Nevada regional chapter has in fact said they will defend gun rights. It is the National chapter that will not.

Edited by FuLL meMbeR, 18 November 2008 - 01:40 AM.

[eternaltraveler]

Friggin hypocrites.

indeed

[Wandering Jew]

Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

[sUper GeNius]

Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

Too early in the morning for me to deal with trite sarcasm. Gotta get another cup of coffee.

[sUper GeNius]

http://www.amazon.co...ASIN=0896895432

[Moonbeam]

Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

No, bullets do.

[sUper GeNius]

Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

No, bullets do.

So send the bullet to jail.

[niner]

I wonder whether you all will find this interesting. You are familiar with the ACLU, that stalwart defender of the constitution? Well, they have publicly stated that they will not defend gun owner's rights, despite the Heller ruling. Ha! Check it out, google it. You know why? Because their organization would cease to exist as their liberal money donors closed their purses tight. Friggin hypocrites.

Addendum: The Nevada regional chapter has in fact said they will defend gun rights. It is the National chapter that will not.

So Friggin what. Are you now saying that an organization has to support things they don't believe in? What the hell happened to FREEDOM? Should we shoot them because they don't consider gun nuts to be in need of defense? They are a non profit. They don't make money doing this stuff. They don't have to do anything, regardless of what anyone thinks. The have the FREEDOM to do whatever the hell they please. Or does FREEDOM only mean what you want it to?

[sUper GeNius]

I wonder whether you all will find this interesting. You are familiar with the ACLU, that stalwart defender of the constitution? Well, they have publicly stated that they will not defend gun owner's rights, despite the Heller ruling. Ha! Check it out, google it. You know why? Because their organization would cease to exist as their liberal money donors closed their purses tight. Friggin hypocrites.

Addendum: The Nevada regional chapter has in fact said they will defend gun rights. It is the National chapter that will not.

So Friggin what. Are you now saying that an organization has to support things they don't believe in? What the hell happened to FREEDOM? Should we shoot them because they don't consider gun nuts to be in need of defense? They are a non profit. They don't make money doing this stuff. They don't have to do anything, regardless of what anyone thinks. The have the FREEDOM to do whatever the hell they please. Or does FREEDOM only mean what you want it to?

I don't appreciate the reference to gun nuts, and if that was in fact a reference to me, then you can kiss (EDITED BY OP UNDER THREAT OF CENSORSHIP) A private organization obviously can do what it wants. But if they describe themselves as "defenders of the constitution" or something similar, then I certainly have the FREEDOM to criticize them, (as well as tell you to kiss (EDITED BY OP UNDER THREAT OF CENSORSHIP.)

Edit: From the ACLU website:

"Majority power is limited by the Constitution's Bill of Rights, which consists of the original ten amendments ratified in 1791, plus the three post-Civil War amendments (the 13th, 14th and 15th) and the 19th Amendment (women's suffrage), adopted in 1920.

The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of these protections and guarantees:"

Well, I guess not ALL of them.

Further edit:

From the ACLU faq:

What is the ACLU?

The American Civil Liberties Union was founded in 1920 and is our nation's guardian of liberty. The ACLU works in the courts, legislatures and communities to defend and preserve the individual rights and liberties guaranteed to all people in this country by the Constitution and laws of the United States.

I guess they ought to add a phrase to the very end, "...according to OUR interpretation of them."

Edited by FuLL meMbeR, 20 November 2008 - 05:21 AM.

[Matt]

Guns in the US should be banned. I have never seen anything other than a BB gun, and I've never heard anyone close to me, any friends or anyone near my area ever being shot or killed by one. It would freak me out if guns were allowed here in the UK. Not sure that I'd feel completely safe anymore. But maybe thats just being parnaoid, I can't imagine what would happen if the local gangs got hold of them!

Edited by Matt, 20 November 2008 - 02:01 AM.

[sUper GeNius]

I can't imagine what would happen if the local gangs got hold of them!

Well, they'd probably kill one another like they do in our major cities.

Edit: That's why I'm in favor of the legalization of drugs.

Uh oh, looks like another thread split-off...

Edited by FuLL meMbeR, 20 November 2008 - 02:17 AM.

[sUper GeNius]

Guns in the US should be banned. I have never seen anything other than a BB gun, and I've never heard anyone close to me, any friends or anyone near my area ever being shot or killed by one. It would freak me out if guns were allowed here in the UK.

Most here don't know someone who's been shot by a gun either, as annual gun deaths in the US amount to a about one one-hundredth of one percent of the population. About half of those are suicides. As far as freaking out, many inhabitants of large cities here are freaked-out by a gun. The mere sight of one often brings on hysteria. Drive an hour away into the country, the hysteria fades.

[sUper GeNius]

Interesting tidbit from Wikipedia.

"Switzerland requires that every male over the age of 20 is required to own an assault rifle (specifically SIG Sauer). In one study by David Kopel of seven countries, including the United States and Japan, Switzerland is found to be one of the safest countries in the study.[19] In recent times political opposition has expressed a desire for tighter gun regulations.[19] Switzerland practices universal conscription, which requires that all able-bodied male citizens keep fully-automatic firearms at home in case of a call-up. Every male between the ages of 20 and 42 is considered a candidate for conscription into the military, and following a brief period of active duty will commonly be enrolled in the militia until age or an inability to serve ends his service obligation.[20] During their enrollment in the armed forces, these men are required to keep their government-issued selective fire combat rifles and semi-automatic handguns in their homes.[21] Up until September 2007, soldiers also received 50 rounds of government-issued ammunition in a sealed box for storage at home.[22] In addition to these official weapons, Swiss citizens are allowed to purchase surplus-to-inventory combat rifles, and shooting is a popular sport in all the Swiss cantons. Ammunition (also MilSpec surplus) sold at rifle ranges is intended to be expended at the time of purchase, but target and sporting ammunition is widely available in gun and sporting goods stores.[citation needed]"

An entire nation of gun nuts! OMG!

Edit:

Also Wikipedia:

" 2.5 million crimes may be thwarted through civilian use of firearms annually."

Edited by FuLL meMbeR, 20 November 2008 - 03:48 AM.

[sUper GeNius]

"Are We a Nation of Cowards?"

http://www.newsweek....d/124951/page/1

Interesting reading.

[Grail]

...because Wikipedia is an unerring source of unbiased information. :/

I'm interested: are there any pro-gun (for the sake of home protection), yet anti-capital punishment posters here?

Hmm...crimes prevented? You mean by killing or shooting said criminal? If not, then would they not just go commit another crime?

To have a gun in your house is to ask for trouble. Guns may be stolen, and kids may shoot their friends or parents etc like what has been in the news recently. The only reason imho you are probably more likely to be shot by a criminal in the US is because they are shit scared you also have a gun (which you probably do) and so you are less of a threat to them if they shoot you. Remove or limit guns, and I would say that you would have less criminals with guns, and the gun-toting ones would be less likely to shoot you out of fear.

[eternaltraveler]

I'm interested: are there any pro-gun (for the sake of home protection), yet anti-capital punishment posters here?

I am in favor of the idea of capital punishment, but I don't trust our system to deal it out properly (as this recent batch of DNA exonerations for people on death row demonstrate).

[Shepard]

Most here don't know someone who's been shot by a gun either, as annual gun deaths in the US amount to a about one one-hundredth of one percent of the population. About half of those are suicides. As far as freaking out, many inhabitants of large cities here are freaked-out by a gun. The mere sight of one often brings on hysteria. Drive an hour away into the country, the hysteria fades.

I know four personally and have met quite a few more through other people. Not deaths, but have been shot while at home due to accidents (not following safety guidelines). Two of them were fairly lucky, one was shot in the abdomen with a rifle and the other shot himself in the leg. The other two deal with paralysis everyday.

[biknut]

I've known of 2 shootings in my life. Both justified IMO.

The first many years ago when I was in 6Th grade. After school I stopped by a neighborhood convenience store. There were 3 businesses side by side. A convenience store, a small mom and pop liquor store, and a gas station. 3 black men walked passed the crowded convenience store toward the liquor store. The owner of the convenience store thought they looked suspicious and called the gas station alerting the owner of a possible robbery. A few minutes later shots rang out from the liquor store. As the three men ran out, the gas station owner was waiting on the sidewalk a few feet away. He shot the last man out the door through the head putting a crease through the door frame at the same time. I happened by in time to see the ambulance drivers placing the liquor store owner in the ambulance on a gurney, and then they picked up the dead robber by the belt loops and threw him on the floor of the same ambulance. After they drove off I saw brains on the sidewalk. Reminded me of scrambled eggs. The liquor store owner later died from his injuries.

In another incident a female friend asked to borrow a gun from my best friend. She was planning to travel out of town to visit a relative. While visiting she came out of a grocery store. As she was walking toward her car she said she heard fast foot steps running up behind her. A man knocked her to the ground stealing her purse, and started running away. She grabbed the gun out of the glove box of her car and shot the robber killing him. After the police discovered the robber had out of state warrants, and had a lengthy criminal record they decided not to charge her with any crime, but they kept her gun. He never got the gun back.

What I learned from this is it's probably not a good idea to loan your guns to a woman lol.

Edited by biknut, 20 November 2008 - 04:41 PM.

[sUper GeNius]

I've known of 2 shootings in my life. Both justified IMO.

The first many years ago when I was in 6Th grade. After school I stopped by a neighborhood convenience store. There were 3 businesses side by side. A convenience store, a small mom and pop liquor store, and a gas station. 3 black men walked passed the crowded convenience store toward the liquor store. The owner of the convenience store thought they looked suspicious and called the gas station alerting the owner of a possible robbery. A few minutes later shots rang out from the liquor store. As the three men ran out, the gas station owner was waiting on the sidewalk a few feet away. He shot the last man out the door through the head putting a crease through the door frame at the same time. I happened by in time to see the ambulance drivers placing the liquor store owner in the ambulance on a gurney, and then they picked up the dead robber by the belt loops and threw him on the floor of the same ambulance. After they drove off I saw brains on the sidewalk. Reminded me of scrambled eggs. The liquor store owner later died from his injuries.

In another incident a female friend asked to borrow a gun from my best friend. She was planning to travel out of town to visit a relative. While visiting she came out of a grocery store. As she was walking toward her car she said she heard fast foot steps running up behind her. A man knocked her to the ground stealing her purse, and started running away. She grabbed the gun out of the glove box of her car and shot the robber killing him. After the police discovered the robber had out of state warrants, and had a lengthy criminal record they decided not to charge her with any crime, but they kept her gun. He never got the gun back.

What I learned from this is it's probably not a good idea to loan your guns to a woman lol.

She committed a crime, it seems. What did she do, shoot him in the back?

[biknut]

I've known of 2 shootings in my life. Both justified IMO.

The first many years ago when I was in 6Th grade. After school I stopped by a neighborhood convenience store. There were 3 businesses side by side. A convenience store, a small mom and pop liquor store, and a gas station. 3 black men walked passed the crowded convenience store toward the liquor store. The owner of the convenience store thought they looked suspicious and called the gas station alerting the owner of a possible robbery. A few minutes later shots rang out from the liquor store. As the three men ran out, the gas station owner was waiting on the sidewalk a few feet away. He shot the last man out the door through the head putting a crease through the door frame at the same time. I happened by in time to see the ambulance drivers placing the liquor store owner in the ambulance on a gurney, and then they picked up the dead robber by the belt loops and threw him on the floor of the same ambulance. After they drove off I saw brains on the sidewalk. Reminded me of scrambled eggs. The liquor store owner later died from his injuries.

In another incident a female friend asked to borrow a gun from my best friend. She was planning to travel out of town to visit a relative. While visiting she came out of a grocery store. As she was walking toward her car she said she heard fast foot steps running up behind her. A man knocked her to the ground stealing her purse, and started running away. She grabbed the gun out of the glove box of her car and shot the robber killing him. After the police discovered the robber had out of state warrants, and had a lengthy criminal record they decided not to charge her with any crime, but they kept her gun. He never got the gun back.

What I learned from this is it's probably not a good idea to loan your guns to a woman lol.

She committed a crime, it seems. What did she do, shoot him in the back?

I believe so. Back in those days it would have been a crime. Now days because of recent changes to gun laws in Texas it wouldn't be a crime anymore because he assaulted her by knocking her down, and stole her property. They did find her slightly at fault. Her penalty was they told her not to do it again, and kept her gun, but no actual charges were filed.