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Gun right/control poll


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Poll: Forum members' firearm views wanted for USA (87 member(s) have cast votes)

Regarding the Supreme Court's decision in Heller vs Wash DC.

  1. I agree, the 2nd Amendment provides for an individual right (53 votes [60.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 60.92%

  2. Disagree, provides for only a collective right. (2 votes [2.30%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.30%

  3. Disagree, but believe individual jurisdictions may allow personal firearm ownership (3 votes [3.45%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.45%

  4. Gun ownership should be banned. (29 votes [33.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

Do you believe one is personally responsible for his own and his family's protection from criminal elements?

  1. Yes (61 votes [70.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 70.11%

  2. No (26 votes [29.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.89%

Regarding gun ownership...

  1. Individuals should be allowed guns for use in the home. (12 votes [13.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.79%

  2. Guns should be allowed for use inside the home and for concealed carry. (44 votes [50.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.57%

  3. Guns should be banned (31 votes [35.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 35.63%

Do you believe gun control laws make for safer communities?

  1. Yes (35 votes [40.23%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.23%

  2. No (52 votes [59.77%])

    Percentage of vote: 59.77%

Do you feel that communities with more liberal guns laws are safer communities because of these laws?

  1. Yes (42 votes [48.28%])

    Percentage of vote: 48.28%

  2. No (45 votes [51.72%])

    Percentage of vote: 51.72%

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#181 Korimyr the Rat

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 04:09 AM

I still think that if the state wants to take you out, or take your family or your neighborhood or city out, that the balance of power is tilted so far in the direction of the US military that the usual weapons about which pro and anti gun forces argue the most (i.e. handguns) would be useless.


Of course, which is why I don't advocate people arming themselves to overthrow the State. We are a part of the State; for the State to harm us in any fashion-- whether it's killing us, denying us due process of law, or disarming us-- is for the State to harm itself. And the more that both the State and the citizenry recognize this, the less likely that either is going to damage itself by lashing out at the other. Unfortunately, it seems that neither the citizenry nor the State is inclined to listen to wisdom in this matter; neither appears willing to trust the other as far as it can be thrown.

#182 abolitionist

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 10:38 AM

I still think that if the state wants to take you out, or take your family or your neighborhood or city out, that the balance of power is tilted so far in the direction of the US military that the usual weapons about which pro and anti gun forces argue the most (i.e. handguns) would be useless.


Of course, which is why I don't advocate people arming themselves to overthrow the State. We are a part of the State; for the State to harm us in any fashion-- whether it's killing us, denying us due process of law, or disarming us-- is for the State to harm itself. And the more that both the State and the citizenry recognize this, the less likely that either is going to damage itself by lashing out at the other. Unfortunately, it seems that neither the citizenry nor the State is inclined to listen to wisdom in this matter; neither appears willing to trust the other as far as it can be thrown.


there are those who manipulate the state for their own ends

posse comitatas has been eliminated

http://www.infowars.com/?p=6525

pdd-51 has enacted martial law in the united states overseen by the presidential administration (not good)

globalists have no vested interest in America

the state should serve the people not impose tyrannical will or experiment upon the masses involuntarily

wake up man, do you think the people voted for the Iraq war or water fluoridation, or secret shots to military personel, or the countless other declassified military programs documenting experimentation upon the unwilling/unknowing public?

the state has become the enemy

Edited by abolitionist, 15 December 2008 - 10:39 AM.


#183 sUper GeNius

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 05:15 AM

Looks like this poll has run its course, so I thought I would wrap it up this:

http://www.gallup.co...t-Own-Guns.aspx

http://www.gallup.co.../1645/Guns.aspx

I'd like to see a few polls done post-Heller too.

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#184 eternaltraveler

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 06:22 PM

I'll let you use two swords if you let me use my Remington 870. Deal?


I was considering the Remington 870, but decided on the Mossberg 590 instead. What made you choose the 870?


Ended up going with the saiga 12

#185 sUper GeNius

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 11:32 PM

This a very strange.

http://www.usatoday....r/popup5895.htm

#186 .fonclea.

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 04:00 PM

I an deeply conviced the average citizen does not have the ability to see how and when using a gun. Exept for professionals i don't now why i should have the need of a gun.
It's like asking to the average citizen to be dentise, doctor or Pilote. Dangerous and ridiculous.

Two, weeks ago, again a crazy story had been reported in news of a man who use his gun to intimidate another man because his child was making to much noise. A large majority of people in this world are too stupid, uneducated, insane and impatient to have a gun.

#187 rwac

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 06:28 PM

It's like asking to the average citizen to be dentise, doctor or Pilote.


But if someone is choking and there is no doctor around, wouldn't you help him ?
If the Pilot died, and there was no other pilot, wouldn't you take the controls and *try* ?

It's the same thing with a gun. The "Professionals" are never there when you need them.
Do you think all the robberies will happen in front of a policeman ?

#188 sUper GeNius

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 06:47 PM

I an deeply conviced the average citizen does not have the ability to see how and when using a gun. Exept for professionals i don't now why i should have the need of a gun.
It's like asking to the average citizen to be dentise, doctor or Pilote. Dangerous and ridiculous.

Two, weeks ago, again a crazy story had been reported in news of a man who use his gun to intimidate another man because his child was making to much noise. A large majority of people in this world are too stupid, uneducated, insane and impatient to have a gun.


Thankfully the Founding Fathers had a different belief, favoring *personal* responsibilities and freedoms.

#189 .fonclea.

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 07:25 PM

It's like asking to the average citizen to be dentise, doctor or Pilote.


But if someone is choking and there is no doctor around, wouldn't you help him ?
If the Pilot died, and there was no other pilot, wouldn't you take the controls and *try* ?

It's the same thing with a gun. The "Professionals" are never there when you need them.
Do you think all the robberies will happen in front of a policeman ?


1-I am not pilote so that wouldn't change. Dead the same.
2-I am not a doctor that wouldn't change. Dead the same.
3-I let the professional doing their job and i have mine. Exeptions are just exeptions.
4-I live in europe, not in US so of course you would live in my place you would think the same, you have the use of a gun for things i don't have to manage with.
5-yes, of course the robberies happens the same, that why in the US you don't find the way to eradicate them even with a gun :)
6-If freedom it's the right to leave any adiot having a gun, no thanks. "Full member" you live in a place where you can't go by the street saffely without gun, it 's sad. Is it dangerous at that point ? or it is just in case you had to be the pilot ?

#190 sUper GeNius

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 08:08 PM

4-I live in europe, not in US so of course you would live in my place you would think the same, you have the use of a gun for things i don't have to manage with.


Is Switzerland in Europe? :)

#191 sUper GeNius

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 05:23 AM

An oldie but a goodie...



#192 abolitionist

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 07:43 AM

I an deeply conviced the average citizen does not have the ability to see how and when using a gun. Exept for professionals i don't now why i should have the need of a gun.
It's like asking to the average citizen to be dentise, doctor or Pilote. Dangerous and ridiculous.

Two, weeks ago, again a crazy story had been reported in news of a man who use his gun to intimidate another man because his child was making to much noise. A large majority of people in this world are too stupid, uneducated, insane and impatient to have a gun.


most places require you to get a license for a concealed firearm

and it would be a good idea to require a basic gun safety and legal course for those that have them at home

still people will do stupid things, but we can't depend on law enforcement to protect ourselves at home from intruders

#193 .fonclea.

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 04:52 PM

4-I live in europe, not in US so of course you would live in my place you would think the same, you have the use of a gun for things i don't have to manage with.


Is Switzerland in Europe? :)



I beg you pardon sir ? :)

It depends, geographically yes.
Ecomnically (EEE) No.
Shengen Yes.
U.E no
...


Abo'
Of course you can have a license, in my contry for exemple you must pass an assessment but in the US guns are supposed to be traced but that does not afford any idiot to buy one, in the end it's the same like no traces. Your children buy guns on the net and use them against their proper friends in school...

Plus it is like driving, we lose our physical or mental perception with the time and something supposed to protect you become dangerous: lack of attention, too much confident, no training...

#194 sUper GeNius

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 06:51 PM

Oh jeez, a woman came to the rescue of a police officer, used her stun gun on a perp. The Libbies aren't going to like that one. They hate when a private citizen defends themselves with a weapon. LOL. And this time the lady came to the defense of a cop! Double trouble for the Libbies.

http://www.wsbtv.com...631/detail.html

Edited by FuLL meMbeR, 26 January 2009 - 07:46 PM.


#195 abolitionist

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 03:57 AM

Abo'
Of course you can have a license, in my contry for exemple you must pass an assessment but in the US guns are supposed to be traced but that does not afford any idiot to buy one, in the end it's the same like no traces. Your children buy guns on the net and use them against their proper friends in school...

Plus it is like driving, we lose our physical or mental perception with the time and something supposed to protect you become dangerous: lack of attention, too much confident, no training...


I agree it's self evident that we could regulate guns better. People should be required to get training in safety and laws when they purchase them and obtain licenses for even home defense purposes.

And still criminals will find ways to get them, and we'll need to spend resources to police this. Human nature is the underlying problem as I see it.

It all comes back to the genes - including the need to have self defense in the first place.

#196 sUper GeNius

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 04:48 AM

Here's another reason I dislike Obama, at least "Obama the activist" of 2004. Who the hell knows what he'd say now. Realize that something like 45 states have concealed carry. Irks me to no end. Obama knows more than over 45 state legislatures??




#197 sUper GeNius

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 09:36 PM

http://www.usatoday....nterstitialskip

4 states, among last holdouts, eye open-carry gun laws

Grass-roots movements supporting open carry have emerged via Internet and e-mail campaigns, Pierce says. The online Texas petition now has more than 55,000 signatures. OpenCarry.org raised $25,000 through online donations to pay for advertising in Texas, says OpenCarry.org co-founder Mike Stollenwerk.


Says Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, which opposes open-carry laws: "We don't want more people carrying guns either openly or concealed because the more guns you have in a situation, the more likely you are to get gun violence."


Prove it Paul.

Yippee! Another win for the Second Amendment. I wonder whether Obama will allow himself to be pinned down on that one.

#198 markm

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 11:28 PM

Maybe instead of focusing on the symptom of gun violence, you should look at the source of the problem: American culture. I don't mean to sound insulting or judgmental, but the fact that American gun related homicides total more than the rest of the world combined speaks to more than the 2nd Amendment. Your country is simply gripped by a violent culture. Gun control may help, but it won't erase the problem.

#199 sUper GeNius

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 11:46 PM

Maybe instead of focusing on the symptom of gun violence, you should look at the source of the problem: American culture. I don't mean to sound insulting or judgmental, but the fact that American gun related homicides total more than the rest of the world combined speaks to more than the 2nd Amendment. Your country is simply gripped by a violent culture. Gun control may help, but it won't erase the problem.


Consider this. Half of the gun deaths in the US are suicides. A good deal of the remainder are gang-bangers fighting over turf and drugs. That "culture" you're referring to is a fairly narrow segment of American society.

If we made drugs legal, a good portion of those deaths would vanish overnight.

http://crime.about.c...un_homicide.htm

http://canadaonline....micides2005.htm

Edited by FuLL meMbeR, 12 February 2009 - 11:53 PM.


#200 markm

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 12:04 AM

Just looking at homicides, completely ignoring suicides and accidents, Canada is still at 50% of the U.S. total per 100,000 persons. And I'm not claiming my country is perfect, our gun control laws really only apply to handguns and semi automatic/automatic weapons. Japan is really the paragon the world should be looking to.

#201 sUper GeNius

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 12:35 AM

Just looking at homicides, completely ignoring suicides and accidents, Canada is still at 50% of the U.S. total per 100,000 persons. And I'm not claiming my country is perfect, our gun control laws really only apply to handguns and semi automatic/automatic weapons. Japan is really the paragon the world should be looking to.


Canada has a completely different history. Look at the differences in the demographics of the two nation's largest cities. Therein lies your answer.

I understand Japan's legal/penal system is quite draconian.

#202 markm

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 12:40 AM

Just looking at homicides, completely ignoring suicides and accidents, Canada is still at 50% of the U.S. total per 100,000 persons. And I'm not claiming my country is perfect, our gun control laws really only apply to handguns and semi automatic/automatic weapons. Japan is really the paragon the world should be looking to.


Canada has a completely different history. Look at the differences in the demographics of the two nation's largest cities. Therein lies your answer.


That's pretty much what I said above, it's a cultural thing. I just don't think the answer for your country is to embrace that culture and pass the ammunition.

#203 sUper GeNius

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 12:48 AM

Just looking at homicides, completely ignoring suicides and accidents, Canada is still at 50% of the U.S. total per 100,000 persons. And I'm not claiming my country is perfect, our gun control laws really only apply to handguns and semi automatic/automatic weapons. Japan is really the paragon the world should be looking to.


Canada has a completely different history. Look at the differences in the demographics of the two nation's largest cities. Therein lies your answer.


That's pretty much what I said above, it's a cultural thing. I just don't think the answer for your country is to embrace that culture and pass the ammunition.


I think you misunderstand me. No legal gun owner is trying to 'embrace' that culture. The culture to which I refer is a 'narrow' segment of American culture. I don't carry my gun to defend myself from drug dealing gang members. They largely limit their killing to one another. If I could literally scoop up and toss smallish sections of America's largest cities, then gun death stats would go WAY down. They're like cancers, an illness, an aberration, not representative of the culture as a whole..

Edited by FuLL meMbeR, 13 February 2009 - 12:49 AM.


#204 markm

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 01:02 AM

I think you misunderstand me. No legal gun owner is trying to 'embrace' that culture. The culture to which I refer is a 'narrow' segment of American culture. I don't carry my gun to defend myself from drug dealing gang members. They largely limit their killing to one another. If I could literally scoop up and toss smallish sections of America's largest cities, then gun death stats would go WAY down. They're like cancers, an illness, an aberration, not representative of the culture as a whole..


Why carry a gun at all? If defense is your only goal, would a taser not be a better option?

#205 sUper GeNius

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 01:20 AM

I think you misunderstand me. No legal gun owner is trying to 'embrace' that culture. The culture to which I refer is a 'narrow' segment of American culture. I don't carry my gun to defend myself from drug dealing gang members. They largely limit their killing to one another. If I could literally scoop up and toss smallish sections of America's largest cities, then gun death stats would go WAY down. They're like cancers, an illness, an aberration, not representative of the culture as a whole..


Why carry a gun at all? If defense is your only goal, would a taser not be a better option?


Do you remember Sean Connery's famous line in the scene where he confronts the guy that broke into his home?

If I am confronted by a bad-guy wielding a gun, I'm not sure a taser is a good idea. Cops don't taser guys that point guns at them, do they? Why not? Secondly, suppose I am confronted by more than one armed bandit?

I also carry pepper spray for those times where lethal force is not warranted. If a guy whipped out a knife on me and was more than 8 feet or so away, I'd lead with pepper spray. I have no desire to kills someone's son. I'd have my new Ruger LCP at hand though.

I would think a forum like this would be very accepting of guns used for self-defense. I thought most of the people here are libertarians? Nothing more libertarian than making self-defense a personal responsibility.

Edited by FuLL meMbeR, 13 February 2009 - 01:21 AM.


#206 markm

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 01:33 AM

Do you remember Sean Connery's famous line in the scene where he confronts the guy that broke into his home?

If I am confronted by a bad-guy wielding a gun, I'm not sure a taser is a good idea. Cops don't taser guys that point guns at them, do they? Why not? Secondly, suppose I am confronted by more than one armed bandit?

I also carry pepper spray for those times where lethal force is not warranted. If a guy whipped out a knife on me and was more than 8 feet or so away, I'd lead with pepper spray. I have no desire to kills someone's son. I'd have my new Ruger LCP at hand though.

I would think a forum like this would be very accepting of guns used for self-defense. I thought most of the people here are libertarians? Nothing more libertarian than making self-defense a personal responsibility.


Most of the people here may be libertarians (can't really speak to that), but I'm not one of them. I've never felt the urge to own a gun, and I never will. On a logical level I can understand how someone might wish to own a hand gun (even though I disagree), but when you guys are complaining about the right to own semi-automatic weapons, I just shake my head.

#207 sUper GeNius

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 01:46 AM

Do you remember Sean Connery's famous line in the scene where he confronts the guy that broke into his home?

If I am confronted by a bad-guy wielding a gun, I'm not sure a taser is a good idea. Cops don't taser guys that point guns at them, do they? Why not? Secondly, suppose I am confronted by more than one armed bandit?

I also carry pepper spray for those times where lethal force is not warranted. If a guy whipped out a knife on me and was more than 8 feet or so away, I'd lead with pepper spray. I have no desire to kills someone's son. I'd have my new Ruger LCP at hand though.

I would think a forum like this would be very accepting of guns used for self-defense. I thought most of the people here are libertarians? Nothing more libertarian than making self-defense a personal responsibility.


Most of the people here may be libertarians (can't really speak to that), but I'm not one of them. I've never felt the urge to own a gun, and I never will. On a logical level I can understand how someone might wish to own a hand gun (even though I disagree), but when you guys are complaining about the right to own semi-automatic weapons, I just shake my head.


Are you sure you mean semi-auto? My little Ruger 6 shot is a semi-auto. I think you must mean so-called assault-rifles. California has outlawed magazines that hold more than ten rounds. My smallish Springfield XD9 pistol can hold 16 rds. California's law means that a law abiding citizen can't carry magazines with 10> rounds. The criminals carry whatever they want.

OTOH, some jurisdictions are pushing laws that would require all ammo be required to have information be stamped on each bullet case identifying the source, so law enforcement can scoop up ejected casings at the scene of a crime. Of course, this will cause a renaissance of revolver use by the bad guy, along with "New York" reloads, (a second gun.)

#208 sUper GeNius

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 01:50 AM

An attorney who works in suburban Philadelphia, a very nice neighborhood, was shot and killed in broad daylight in front of his office last week. Too bad he wasn't armed.

Edited by FuLL meMbeR, 18 February 2009 - 01:54 AM.


#209 johnf

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 03:15 AM

"Lazarus Long"
...
Along with the rights of gun ownership came a RESPONSIBILITY to the state for participation in the militia and a well regulated one at that. The Swiss actually do operate in principle more true to this ideal than we do.

Now this matter will require a considerable amount of discussion but a right to ownership is not carte blanche either and regulation may also be a part of such ownership.
...
I am unconvinced that guns belong in the cities and I am unconvinced that the right to own is without an obligation of service to the state accompanying it..

You want guns?

Then realize it comes with the well regulated disciplined use part.

I might almost agree, but I emphatically back off from the idea that the 2nd is to be at all interpreted as a "collective" right, or one to be exercised if only in service to the state (even in a neighborhood watch "militia" scale).
The Swiss and Israeli models aren't the same. Everyone serves in uniformed military service, and the weapons they take home (for-real full-auto "assault rifles") are government property, to be taken out only on government orders. I do note that practically any citizen can buy just about whatever they want and own it with basically no government watch: squad serviced, anti-vehicle, whatever a "collector" might want to afford.
The Swiss also have it encoded in their laws that initiating a war is illegal. While doing your mandatory military term, you will not be sent overseas to serve as a cheap mercenary for political graft and short-term profits for the companies paying some congress-critter's campaign funds.

Defense of the state can sometimes start and end with self defense: a case last October of a rape victim defending herself against a return visit from her rapist. She dialed 911, but he came in before they did, so she met him point-blank with a shotgun.
She was in no way part of any collective or militia. Nothing at all "well regulated" about this incident, except maybe her nerves at the moment. Yet she did most definitely meet the needs of the community and contribute to a safer society...
If only for personal defense, and to specifically not in any way to lessen the ability of any person to defend themselves if they need to, individual-rights needs to be very clearly written into laws. "To provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty" and all that.

No place for handguns in a city? They're the best most portable and affordable defensive arm many people can afford and bother to carry around. We see what little good effect we get from gun bans and "reasonable restrictions for safety" in cities.
I'd like to see an experiment: instead of hiring police and installing post-crime investigation cameras throughout a city, lets take 1 in 100 people who could pass a concealed carry permit interview, and subsidize them to take training and to carry. Give them (not an issue of government property) a small cheap low/medium capacity/power pistol for carry, and then let it be known that we've done this for a few people in each crime ridden inner city district. They are not paid or empowered, or protected like police by "the thin blue line" of silence and safety from excessive force. No "well regulated" about it, except that we pick people we trust, from among the populace, and have put them through good training.(training such as)


I'm unconvinced that just about any amount of "reasonable regulation" is either necessary or a good thing. Laws requiring safety, legal, and tactical training before you carry on the streets? I'm almost convinced that public and media and peer pressure could take care of ensuring that people who own or carry get that on their own. Maybe a bit of familiarization in schools? the don't even do much drivers' ed these days.

Licensing and registration? Until I see facts that prove that they prevent lawlessness (by getting criminals to obey the law, perhaps?) I honestly don't see the point. Figures don't show any benefit from such schemes, over places where guns are just a thing, just another part of life. Law-abiding citizens with unregulated arms are not a driver of crime, and preventing the law-abiding from doing what they want in no way impedes the criminals from getting whatever they want and doing whatever they want with it.
Can anyone show an example from history -anywhere- that prohibition of a thing actually succeeds in stopping that thing from existing? All outlawing a thing that is seen as having value does, is empower the black market.

#210 eternaltraveler

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 03:18 AM

OTOH, some jurisdictions are pushing laws that would require all ammo be required to have information be stamped on each bullet case identifying the source, so law enforcement can scoop up ejected casings at the scene of a crime. Of course, this will cause a renaissance of revolver use by the bad guy, along with "New York" reloads, (a second gun.)


as well as driving the cost of ammunition through the roof.




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