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[eternaltraveler]

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[thughes]

I am sad that you continue to refer to pregnancy as punishment. I can't fathom how anyone can determine those two words go hand-in-hand. If you continue to believe that way, I'm sure you believe that no one who commits a crime or does anything wrong should be punished for doing so? You don't believe in reprocutions? You believe individuals should not be held accountable for their actions?

I hate to be mean, but seriously, the above argument is internally contradictory =) You are trying to have your cake and eat it too so to speak, or rather, maintain an argument and its logical contradiction at the same time.

Let me show you...

By your second statement:

If you continue to believe that way, I'm sure you believe that no one who commits a crime or does anything wrong should be punished for doing so?"

you are implying that you believe promiscuous sex is a crime, and since I do not think such women should be forced to continue their pregnancies (ergo I do not believe they should be punished for their "crime"), I do not want to punish them and hence must not want to punish any criminals. But this argument of yours implies you think they **should** be punished. Ergo you think pregnancy is a punishment, thus logically contradicting your first statement in which you state pregnancy is not a punishment:

I am sad that you continue to refer to pregnancy as punishment. I can't fathom how anyone can determine those two words go hand-in-hand.

/sigh

If forcing someone against their will to go through something painful and difficult because you do not agree with their actions is not a punishment, seriously, what is? In fact, its clear you think pregnancy should be used as a punishment (hence all this stuff about "promiscuous" women being the ones getting unwantedly pregnant, and all this stuff about them doing something wrong and paying the consequences...), so whats this nonsense about not thinking pregnancy as a punishment? Are you trying to escape the logical conclusions of your own reasoning?

You can't have it both ways. You need to get your argument straight.

Just to spell out my own position:

1) Pregnancy should *never* be used as a punishment. It should always be something the woman wants.
2) Forcing a woman with an unwanted pregnancy to carry it to term is the moral equivalent of torture (since pregnancy is difficult and can be exceedingly painful).
3) Anyone should be able to terminate unwanted pregnancies, regardless of how they got into that position, even if society thinks their behaviour is morally wrong (see point #1).
4) Its statistically untrue that the vast majority of unwanted pregnancies are by promiscuous, unmarried, and careless females, since 18% of abortions are by married people, and all birth control methods have statistically significant failure rates, so characterizing abortion (as you have been doing) as a problem of promiscuity and unprotected sex is misleading and false (which was the whole point of my posts, to demonstrate this to you).

And I'll add:

5) Early term abortion is a reasonable solution for failed birth control and other situations such as rape and teenage stupidity.
6) Sex is not a crime. Promiscuity is not a crime. Getting accidentally pregnant from a birth control failure is not a crime. Being irresponsible and not using birth control could be considered a crime (well, a misdemeanor) but hey, the price is already the added health risk of an abortion plus having to face annoying religious picketers and weird relatives. No further punishment is necessary. Using pregnancy to punish irresponsibility is absurd.

- Tracy

[ should probably just take Elrond's advice... ]

[luv2increase]

If forcing someone against their will to go through something painful and difficult because you do not agree with their actions is not a punishment, seriously, what is?

It is said that many women regret having an abortion after the fact. This could be preventing many problems down the road for the woman whom undergoes an abortion.

You act as if there are no consequences and dangers to having an abortion. You act as if it is just a happy thing that a woman doesn't have to have their baby if they don't want it. I have news for you in which you may not like to hear. Have you ever heard of Post Abortion Syndrome? If you haven't, I highly suggest you and others go HERE?... Happy readings, then again maybe not.

[Moonbeam]

We can play that game if you want--it's a non-issue, proven wrong long ago, you are severly out-dated in your research (nice of you to be so paternalistic, however):

"Given the millions of women who have had abortions, if severe reaction were common, there would be an epidemic of women seeking treatment."

http://www.guttmache.../gpr090308.html

http://www.religious...rg/abo_post.htm

http://www.msmagazin.../aug01/pas.html

http://www.prochoice...n_syndrome.html

Must I go on? My copying and pasting finger is getting tired.

[luv2increase]

We can play that game if you want--it's a non-issue, proven wrong long ago, you are severly out-dated in your research (nice of you to be so paternalistic, however):

"Given the millions of women who have had abortions, if severe reaction were common, there would be an epidemic of women seeking treatment."

http://www.guttmache.../gpr090308.html

http://www.religious...rg/abo_post.htm

http://www.msmagazin.../aug01/pas.html

http://www.prochoice...n_syndrome.html

Must I go on? My copying and pasting finger is getting tired.

Don't act like those sources prove anything. There are just as many proving the opposite out there, but I'd rather give my posting finger a rest. All one has to do is type in "PASS", "PAS", "Post abortion syndrome", "tramatic stress abortion", etc... into good 'ole google.

There are many anecdotal reports of women out there saying how real and tramatic PAS is. Are they all liars in your eyes because your pro-choice websites say-so?

[thughes]

It is said that many women regret having an abortion after the fact

Just as obviously, many women don't. Its the numbers that matter.

At any rate, first unwanted pregnancy was only by "sinful" women and they should suffer the consequences, and now you are trying to save women by forcing them to remain pregnant... whats the real reason you want to restrict abortion? =)

You seem to have declared you will believe what you want to believe in the face of contradictory evidence here:

Don't act like those sources prove anything. There are just as many proving the opposite out there

This is sad. Be aware the internet is like the Bible, you can use it to justify anything if you aren't careful with your sources. In order to get a decent idea of the real prevalence of PAS (if you are interested in the truth rather than just interested in propping up your worldview) you will need to turn to non-biased sources. This means, no pro-life websites and no pro-choice websites. Lets see if we can find some for you...

Sadly, most of the information I can find on PAS is severely biased (linked to pro-life sites), and my patience for wading through 200 pages of google search is limited. But I did find a few decent sources:

For example, here's what the UK house of commons concluded. More importantly, it makes references to actual studies you can look up, at the bottom of the report:

http://www.publicati...45/1045we26.htm

19. The vast majority of women have positive reactions to abortion in the long-term and only a small minority express any degree of regret.

20. There is widespread misinformation on this subject with politically-motivated activists insisting that there is a condition called "postabortion traumatic stress syndrome" (see for instance http://www.afterabortion.org). This so-called condition does not exist and is not recognised by national or international bodies of psychiatrists. 22

21. Serious psychotic illness occurs less often after abortion than after childbirth. 23

22. The majority of women undergoing abortion appear to make a good subsequent adjustment.5 The unintended pregnancy is a time of crisis in a woman's life that is resolved once the abortion has taken place. A US study which followed women for two years post-abortion, showed that 301 of 418 women (72%) were satisfied with their decision; 69% said they would have the abortion again; 72% reported more benefit than harm from their abortion; and 80% were not depressed24. A US study of over 5,000 women followed for eight years after abortion concluded that there was no independent relationship between abortion and women's well-being. 25

23. There are well-recognised predictors of poor mental outcomes and women displaying these can be targeted for pregnancy options counselling. 24, 26-35

24. Five of the six studies cited in the RCOG guideline show higher rates of psychiatric symptomatology/morbidity after abortion when compared to delivery of a child. The symptoms/diagnoses range from psychological depression scoring, attempted suicide, suicide and admission to psychiatric hospital. The sixth study, from the UK, showed no difference in total psychiatric disorders, but deliberate self-harm was more common in the abortion group compared to the abortion refused group.

25. A recent study from New Zealand looking at 15-25 year olds having abortions showed positive associations with subsequent depression, anxiety, suicidal behaviour and substance abuse. 36

26. It should be carefully noted that women who seek abortion are not representative of the general population. They are more prone to mental health problems, 37 social problems such as intimate partner violence38 and other problems such as drug misuse. 39 They do not necessarily have the same psychosocial characteristics as often used comparator groups of women who choose to continue their pregnancies. Most studies, not surprisingly, cannot make comparisons with how the women were before they became pregnant. Therefore these associations with mental health problems are not necessarily casual and probably reflect continuation of pre-existing conditions.

Now what can we get from this?

(1) You are right in that some women experience issues.
(2) Unfortunately, even more women who go through with pregnancy experience serious issues (oh how real life complicates matters, huh?)
(3) The prevalence of women experiencing *any* issues (serious or otherwise), in the short term, is less than 28%.
(4) There's a decent chance that much of the reported 28% prevalence of issues is not causal (further study needed).
(5) Large studies have found no long term mental health consequences

This implies that the outside bounds for the prevalence of mental health issues in women who have had abortions is around 28%, not necessarily causal (possibly much less, in fact), less prevalent than PPD, and not long term.

What does this call for? Clearly, if there is no long term harm for the great majority, no short term harm for a strong majority, and if the prevalence of mental health problems with live births is greater than with abortions, society has no business restricting abortions on the grounds of possible mental harm.

Given these stats, I have to agree that pro-life sites are responsible for disseminating misinformation by deliberately misrepresenting the percentage of women having difficulties (many pro life sites report 90%+ having PAS, which is clearly out of line with reality), and the degree of difficulty they are having. This is shameful.

- Tracy

[luv2increase]

It is said that many women regret having an abortion after the fact

Just as obviously, many women don't. Its the numbers that matter.

At any rate, first unwanted pregnancy was only by "sinful" women and they should suffer the consequences, and now you are trying to save women by forcing them to remain pregnant... whats the real reason you want to restrict abortion? =)

You seem to have declared you will believe what you want to believe in the face of contradictory evidence here:

Don't act like those sources prove anything. There are just as many proving the opposite out there

This is sad. Be aware the internet is like the Bible, you can use it to justify anything if you aren't careful with your sources. In order to get a decent idea of the real prevalence of PAS (if you are interested in the truth rather than just interested in propping up your worldview) you will need to turn to non-biased sources. This means, no pro-life websites and no pro-choice websites. Lets see if we can find some for you...

Sadly, most of the information I can find on PAS is severely biased (linked to pro-life sites), and my patience for wading through 200 pages of google search is limited. But I did find a few decent sources:

For example, here's what the UK house of commons concluded. More importantly, it makes references to actual studies you can look up, at the bottom of the report:

http://www.publicati...45/1045we26.htm

19. The vast majority of women have positive reactions to abortion in the long-term and only a small minority express any degree of regret.

20. There is widespread misinformation on this subject with politically-motivated activists insisting that there is a condition called "postabortion traumatic stress syndrome" (see for instance http://www.afterabortion.org). This so-called condition does not exist and is not recognised by national or international bodies of psychiatrists. 22

21. Serious psychotic illness occurs less often after abortion than after childbirth. 23

22. The majority of women undergoing abortion appear to make a good subsequent adjustment.5 The unintended pregnancy is a time of crisis in a woman's life that is resolved once the abortion has taken place. A US study which followed women for two years post-abortion, showed that 301 of 418 women (72%) were satisfied with their decision; 69% said they would have the abortion again; 72% reported more benefit than harm from their abortion; and 80% were not depressed24. A US study of over 5,000 women followed for eight years after abortion concluded that there was no independent relationship between abortion and women's well-being. 25

23. There are well-recognised predictors of poor mental outcomes and women displaying these can be targeted for pregnancy options counselling. 24, 26-35

24. Five of the six studies cited in the RCOG guideline show higher rates of psychiatric symptomatology/morbidity after abortion when compared to delivery of a child. The symptoms/diagnoses range from psychological depression scoring, attempted suicide, suicide and admission to psychiatric hospital. The sixth study, from the UK, showed no difference in total psychiatric disorders, but deliberate self-harm was more common in the abortion group compared to the abortion refused group.

25. A recent study from New Zealand looking at 15-25 year olds having abortions showed positive associations with subsequent depression, anxiety, suicidal behaviour and substance abuse. 36

26. It should be carefully noted that women who seek abortion are not representative of the general population. They are more prone to mental health problems, 37 social problems such as intimate partner violence38 and other problems such as drug misuse. 39 They do not necessarily have the same psychosocial characteristics as often used comparator groups of women who choose to continue their pregnancies. Most studies, not surprisingly, cannot make comparisons with how the women were before they became pregnant. Therefore these associations with mental health problems are not necessarily casual and probably reflect continuation of pre-existing conditions.

Now what can we get from this?

(1) You are right in that some women experience issues.
(2) Unfortunately, even more women who go through with pregnancy experience serious issues (oh how real life complicates matters, huh?)
(3) The prevalence of women experiencing *any* issues (serious or otherwise), in the short term, is less than 28%.
(4) There's a decent chance that much of the reported 28% prevalence of issues is not causal (further study needed).
(5) Large studies have found no long term mental health consequences

This implies that the outside bounds for the prevalence of mental health issues in women who have had abortions is around 28%, not necessarily causal (possibly much less, in fact), less prevalent than PPD, and not long term.

What does this call for? Clearly, if there is no long term harm for the great majority, no short term harm for a strong majority, and if the prevalence of mental health problems with live births is greater than with abortions, society has no business restricting abortions on the grounds of possible mental harm.

Given these stats, I have to agree that pro-life sites are responsible for disseminating misinformation by deliberately misrepresenting the percentage of women having difficulties (many pro life sites report 90%+ having PAS, which is clearly out of line with reality), and the degree of difficulty they are having. This is shameful.

- Tracy

This reminds me of tobacco. Sure, it will give some people cancer, but the good thing about it folks is that only a very small percentage will end up with cancer With an abortion, your odds are greater than 25% per your sources that some nasty psychological problems may arise. Note that I never said this is grounds to banning abortion for this is the least of the problems with abortion in my opinion.

[Moonbeam]

This reminds me of tobacco. Sure, it will give some people cancer, but the good thing about it folks is that only a very small percentage will end up with cancer

And tobacco's legal...so it follows that you want to ban it too? That would work well, as prohibitions always do. (Anti-choice on everything! :lol:)


Another thing I don't think that anybody has pointed out yet: the anti-abortionists would really only condemn poor women to having unsafe abortions. Women with money always have been and always will be able to get it done.

[luv2increase]

This reminds me of tobacco. Sure, it will give some people cancer, but the good thing about it folks is that only a very small percentage will end up with cancer

And tobacco's legal...so it follows that you want to ban it too? That would work well, as prohibitions always do. (Anti-choice on everything! :lol:)


Another thing I don't think that anybody has pointed out yet: the anti-abortionists would really only condemn poor women to having unsafe abortions. Women with money always have been and always will be able to get it done.

You unquoted the last part which was the answer to your question here. You would have been better off by not even posting.

Here it is for you just in case you missed it:

Note that I never said this is grounds to banning abortion for this is the least of the problems with abortion in my opinion.

[Moonbeam]

Here it is for you just in case you missed it:

Note that I never said this is grounds to banning abortion for this is the least of the problems with abortion in my opinion.

Why even say it then, if it's totally irrelevant to your argument, and you don't want that part commented on or taken into consideration? It's a little unreasonable to yell at somebody for that.

[lightowl]

You would have been better off by not even posting.

Agreed. Everyone should stop feeding this troll. Its just getting more angry with every bite.

[Moonbeam]

Are you talking about me? Why are you singling me out?

[lightowl]

No

[inawe]

You would have been better off by not even posting.

Agreed. Everyone should stop feeding this troll. Its just getting more angry with every bite.

Yes. Once genetic abnormalities were confirmed, the thread should have been aborted.

[Moonbeam]

No

Oh OK.

[JonesGuy]

I'll point out that at least part of the post-abortion trauma is due to the fact that a huge portion of society considers it shameful and evil, no matter which stage the fetus was aborted at.
We saw the same thing with homosexuality. We society thought it was evil, homosexuals experienced greater mental trauma.

Edited by QJones, 29 November 2008 - 01:26 PM.

[luv2increase]

I'll point out that at least part of the post-abortion trauma is due to the fact that a huge portion of society considers it shameful and evil, no matter which stage the fetus was aborted at.
We saw the same thing with homosexuality. We society thought it was evil, homosexuals experienced greater mental trauma.

Apparently society still does since gay marriage failed in I believe 3 states in this election. It's now illegal in California. Who would've thought?

[thughes]

is reminds me of tobacco. Sure, it will give some people cancer, but the good thing about it folks is that only a very small percentage will end up with cancer smile.gif With an abortion, your odds are greater than 25% per your sources that some nasty psychological problems may arise. Note that I never said this is grounds to banning abortion for this is the least of the problems with abortion in my opinion.

Pregnancies carried to completion bear a statistically greater risk of serious psychological problems. Should we ban them too? Did you miss that part? Preferred to ignore it as it didn't match what you wanted to believe about reality?

By your own logic, if we want to minimize harm to women we should apparently force them all to have abortions =) [to prevent future quote mining out of context, no I do not believe this is a good idea...]

As a response to all that careful *actual research* research compiled by people, this is rather lame.

I'll point out that at least part of the post-abortion trauma is due to the fact that a huge portion of society considers it shameful and evil, no matter which stage the fetus was aborted at.

I completely agree.

- Tracy

Edited by thughes, 02 December 2008 - 04:00 PM.

[thughes]

Agreed. Everyone should stop feeding this troll. Its just getting more angry with every bite.

Yes mom /sigh

- Tracy

[thughes]

remove me, im a duplicate because some moron always hits reply rather than edit to correct something.

Edited by thughes, 02 December 2008 - 03:51 PM.

[cyborgdreamer]

So you would have no problem with assited suicide, or suicide in generlc then, right?

If someone kills themself in the heat of emotion without taking the time to decide if that's what they really want, then it's horrible. However, if the person thinks it over rationally and decides that they truly didn't want to live, that should be their choice to make.

And perhaps young infants dying. I can't see someone getting a 3 mo old child to "care" about living or dying.

I do think it's worse for an adult or an older child to die than an infant. However, even if they can't understand or express their will to live, a baby or late term fetus might have some rudimentary form of the emotion systems that lead adults to feel that desire. Therefore, infants and late term fetuses shouldn't die.

Negative value? Shouldn't it be assumed that removal from existence has about the most negative value of any alternative?

I take it you're a vegetarian, then?

Maybe one would make a case for extreme and continual torture being worse than death, but carrying a child for 9 months?

Unwanted pregnacy can be as horrible as planned pregnancy is wonderful. Setting aside the health risks and possibly permanent changes to the woman's body, the psychological trauma of carrying an unwanted child could be enormous. I don't think we should put a woman through that just to avoid killing something with no will of its own.