14 replies to this topic

[inawe]

T. Boone Pickens is trying to promote more use of natural gas. People who could be his allies distrust him because he's to far to the right.
Of course Pickens was not the first to come up with the idea of Natural Gas Vehicles (NGV). There are NGV in many countries and a few
in the US. Not many because of the lack of accessible refueling stations. This in spite of the US having enough natural gas to power
our vehicles for 60 years.

Other countries managed to solve the problem of alternative refueling stations. Why can't we do it in the US?
Let's look at the example of Brazil. They can produce plenty of sugar cane ethanol. So the government wanted stations to sell ethanol.
Exxon, Shell and the like wouldn't do it. But Brazil has a state owned oil company, Petrobras. Petrobras stations have gas pumps and ethanol
pumps. Even the gas comes with a high mixture of ethanol.
To be able to compete with Petrobras, private companies also have pure ethanol pumps in Brazil.

If we had a state oil company in the US, USoil, it could have stations for refueling NGV with natural gas. It takes from 2 to 7 minutes. But that's forbidden in
the US. We are told it would be "socialism", of which we are scared to death.
It's much better to allow oil companies to sell us imported oil and make huge profits. We consumers are very smart, we complain.

By the way, if you have natural gas at home you can buy a device that allows you to refuel your NGV at home.

[Shepard]

If we had a state oil company in the US, USoil, it could have stations for refueling NGV with natural gas. It takes from 2 to 7 minutes. But that's forbidden in
the US. We are told it would be "socialism", of which we are scared to death.
It's much better to allow oil companies to sell us imported oil and make huge profits.

The government makes plenty of money off taxing gas.

[sUper GeNius]

If we had a state oil company in the US, USoil, it could have stations for refueling NGV with natural gas. It takes from 2 to 7 minutes. But that's forbidden in
the US. We are told it would be "socialism", of which we are scared to death.
It's much better to allow oil companies to sell us imported oil and make huge profits. We consumers are very smart, we complain.

Man, those windshield-cleaner-guys would luvvv to be gubberment workers.

[niner]

I don't think natural gas is that great of a fit, technology-wise, to running our auto fleet. We would need a LOT of infrastructure in order to do it; not only fueling stations but high pressure tanks in every car, a lot of new plumbing, and a recalibrated engine control module at the very least. You might get a slightly higher efficiency, but you wouldn't get the advantages of electrification, like regenerative braking. On the other hand, we have a lot of residential and industrial uses for gas already in place. Generation of heat and chemical feedstocks come to mind. I would rather see us use US natural gas for things that it's already good at, and convert our ground transportation to electrics and hybrid gasoline-electric.

[niner]

Man, those windshield-cleaner-guys would luvvv to be gubberment workers.

And this relates to the thread how, exactly?

[sUper GeNius]

Man, those windshield-cleaner-guys would luvvv to be gubberment workers.

And this relates to the thread how, exactly?

Sarcasm. That's not prohibited yet, is it?

Edited by FuLL meMbeR, 26 November 2008 - 05:16 AM.

[Shepard]

I don't think natural gas is that great of a fit, technology-wise, to running our auto fleet. We would need a LOT of infrastructure in order to do it; not only fueling stations but high pressure tanks in every car, a lot of new plumbing, and a recalibrated engine control module at the very least.

For what it's worth, I think Pickens only wants the trucking fleet to swap over to natural gas, not everyday vehicles.

[Lazarus Long]

For what it's worth, I think Pickens only wants the trucking fleet to swap over to natural gas, not everyday vehicles.

I both heard him speak to this issue in the last week and read previously that this is correct Shepard.

He is a big backer of Wind but is very concerned that the current grid lacks the capacity to absorb significant new power production from ANY large scale renewable sources. I happen to agree with this criticism too but I think distributed co-generation could buy the time needed to improve the grid and bring it up to 21st Century capacity.

[inawe]

Pickens is right on a few things that are rather obvious. On other things he doesn't know what he's talking about.
He's right in that the US is spending too much buying oil from abroad. He's also right in that we should use much more American natural gas for transportation. There is no good reason why natural gas usage should be restricted to buses and trucks, or to short range trips.
As far as I know only Honda is making a Natural Gas Vehicle (NGV), like the Civic, in the US. GM, Ford and Chrysler would rather ask for taxpayer money. Any problem with natural gas tanks for cars was solved a long time ago. The main remaining problem is the lack of refueling stations.
Natural gas offers the best prospect for the US to be self sufficient in powering vehicles, in a few years. Efficient and affordable electric cars will take much longer. Once much better batteries are developed, how long will it take you to recharge a battery on the road? Exchange of expensive batteries will be very problematic.
The biggest problem in electric distribution right now is not generation. It's storage at times when there is surplus. Too much reliance on wind will only aggravate the problem because wind is more plentiful when electricity usage is the lowest (1-3 at night).

Edited by inawe, 27 November 2008 - 12:13 AM.

[niner]

Pickens is right on a few things that are rather obvious. On other things he doesn't know what he's talking about.
He's right in that the US is spending too much buying oil from abroad. He's also right in that we should use much more American natural gas for transportation. There is no good reason why natural gas usage should be restricted to buses and trucks, or to short range trips.
As far as I know only Honda is making a Natural Gas Vehicle (NGV), like the Civic, in the US. GM, Ford and Chrysler would rather ask for taxpayer money. Any problem with natural gas tanks for cars was solved a long time ago. The main remaining problem is the lack of refueling stations.
Natural gas offers the best prospect for the US to be self sufficient in powering vehicles, in a few years. Efficient and affordable electric cars will take much longer. Once much better batteries are developed, how long will it take you to recharge a battery on the road? Exchange of expensive batteries will be very problematic.

If we want to make a big impact on our auto fleet in a few years, we will need to retrofit older vehicles, because the average car or light truck stays on the road for something like 11 years. (Maybe longer in the new economy.) Whether we use gas or electric technology, retrofit is expensive and unlikely to see much consumer acceptance. If we look at what's already on the way, the direction that the auto industry is going is clearly electric. There are something like a dozen companies with plug-in hybrids or EVs coming out soon. There are some CNG vehicles in other countries, and those could be imported to the states, but I'm not aware of any plans to do that in a big way, i.e. nothing beyond demonstration-level projects like Honda's. Because Honda has the home compressor technology now, it could in principle be ramped up here, though cost is a question mark. However, the auto industry has voted with it's pocketbook, on in the case of GM, your pocketbook... and the winner was hybrid EVs with either a small battery (ordinary hybrid) or a big one (plugin, like the Chevy Volt). Toyota is widely expected to come out with a plugin Prius, probably next year. Basically, the major problems with plugins and EVs have been solved. The battery chemistries are good, there's not going to be a shortage of lithium, and the existing grid is more than capable of charging a very large fleet of EVs at night. Yes, batteries are still expensive but they will get cheaper. Pure EVs, i.e. non-hybrid, battery-only cars, will be a niche product for a while. They will be limited to micro cars and things like the Tesla Roadster. Hybrids, either regular or plugin, will make up the bulk of the electrified vehicles for a number of years to come. Hybrids don't need to be recharged on the road.

The sudden plunge in gas prices certainly scrambles everyone's alternative energy plans, though, doesn't it? Chevy Volt: 35-40 grand? Chevy Camaro: 20 grand? Gallon of gas: $1.98? Hmm... (What's cheaper now, a gallon of gas or a share of GM stock?)

[inawe]

Pickens is right on a few things that are rather obvious. On other things he doesn't know what he's talking about.
He's right in that the US is spending too much buying oil from abroad. He's also right in that we should use much more American natural gas for transportation. There is no good reason why natural gas usage should be restricted to buses and trucks, or to short range trips.
As far as I know only Honda is making a Natural Gas Vehicle (NGV), like the Civic, in the US. GM, Ford and Chrysler would rather ask for taxpayer money. Any problem with natural gas tanks for cars was solved a long time ago. The main remaining problem is the lack of refueling stations.
Natural gas offers the best prospect for the US to be self sufficient in powering vehicles, in a few years. Efficient and affordable electric cars will take much longer. Once much better batteries are developed, how long will it take you to recharge a battery on the road? Exchange of expensive batteries will be very problematic.

If we want to make a big impact on our auto fleet in a few years, we will need to retrofit older vehicles, because the average car or light truck stays on the road for something like 11 years. (Maybe longer in the new economy.) Whether we use gas or electric technology, retrofit is expensive and unlikely to see much consumer acceptance. If we look at what's already on the way, the direction that the auto industry is going is clearly electric. There are something like a dozen companies with plug-in hybrids or EVs coming out soon. There are some CNG vehicles in other countries, and those could be imported to the states, but I'm not aware of any plans to do that in a big way, i.e. nothing beyond demonstration-level projects like Honda's. Because Honda has the home compressor technology now, it could in principle be ramped up here, though cost is a question mark. However, the auto industry has voted with it's pocketbook, on in the case of GM, your pocketbook... and the winner was hybrid EVs with either a small battery (ordinary hybrid) or a big one (plugin, like the Chevy Volt). Toyota is widely expected to come out with a plugin Prius, probably next year. Basically, the major problems with plugins and EVs have been solved. The battery chemistries are good, there's not going to be a shortage of lithium, and the existing grid is more than capable of charging a very large fleet of EVs at night. Yes, batteries are still expensive but they will get cheaper. Pure EVs, i.e. non-hybrid, battery-only cars, will be a niche product for a while. They will be limited to micro cars and things like the Tesla Roadster. Hybrids, either regular or plugin, will make up the bulk of the electrified vehicles for a number of years to come. Hybrids don't need to be recharged on the road.

The sudden plunge in gas prices certainly scrambles everyone's alternative energy plans, though, doesn't it? Chevy Volt: 35-40 grand? Chevy Camaro: 20 grand? Gallon of gas: $1.98? Hmm... (What's cheaper now, a gallon of gas or a share of GM stock?)

One shouldn't look at hybrids as a sort of electrics. Hybrids are just a way to increase millage in gasoline cars.
As for real plug in electric cars with batteries optimistically good for 200 miles, how do yo recharge the battery on the road if you are going further? How many hours will it take? Refueling natural gas tanks takes on average 5 minutes.

Last I looked natural gas equivalent to a gallon of gasoline cost $1.25, and it could easily come down. The NGV Honda is a couple thousand dollars more expensive than the Civic. Again, the price will come down if they are produced in higher quantity.

"GM do Brasil introduced the MultiPower engine in August 2004 which was capable of using CNG, alcohol and gasoline (E20-E25 blend) as fuel, and it was used in the Chevrolet Astra 2.0 model 2005, aimed at the taxi market.[8][9] In 2006 the Brazilian subsidiary of FIAT introduced the Fiat Siena Tetra fuel, a four-fuel car developed under Magneti Marelli of Fiat Brazil. This automobile can run on natural gas (CNG); 100% ethanol (E100); E20 to E25 gasoline blend, Brazil's mandatory gasoline; and pure gasoline, though no longer available in Brazil it is used in neighboring countries".

Brazil can do it because the state owned Petrobras gas stations are supplying all those products.

[eternaltraveler]

As for real plug in electric cars with batteries optimistically good for 200 miles, how do yo recharge the battery on the road if you are going further? How many hours will it take?

you can recharge them very quickly with a large enough power source (ie 5 minutes). Gas stations will become power stations

[niner]

One shouldn't look at hybrids as a sort of electrics. Hybrids are just a way to increase millage in gasoline cars.
As for real plug in electric cars with batteries optimistically good for 200 miles, how do yo recharge the battery on the road if you are going further? How many hours will it take? Refueling natural gas tanks takes on average 5 minutes.

Hybrids are on a continuum between internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles and pure EVs. An ordinary hybrid has a small battery + ICE, and a plugin hybrid has a bigger battery + ICE. A pure EV has a huge battery, and does away entirely with the ICE range-extender. Given the present cost and energy density of batteries, and the lack (at the moment) of high-power recharge sites, a plugin hybrid makes a lot of sense, with the battery sized according to your typical commute and pocketbook. Hybrids provide a smooth transition away from ICE vehicles and toward EVs. CNG, on the other hand, leaves you stuck with ICE forever, and leaves you with no pathway toward an auto fleet that does not produce greenhouse gases or criteria pollutants.

[inawe]

One shouldn't look at hybrids as a sort of electrics. Hybrids are just a way to increase millage in gasoline cars.
As for real plug in electric cars with batteries optimistically good for 200 miles, how do yo recharge the battery on the road if you are going further? How many hours will it take? Refueling natural gas tanks takes on average 5 minutes.

Hybrids are on a continuum between internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles and pure EVs. An ordinary hybrid has a small battery + ICE, and a plugin hybrid has a bigger battery + ICE. A pure EV has a huge battery, and does away entirely with the ICE range-extender. Given the present cost and energy density of batteries, and the lack (at the moment) of high-power recharge sites, a plugin hybrid makes a lot of sense, with the battery sized according to your typical commute and pocketbook. Hybrids provide a smooth transition away from ICE vehicles and toward EVs. CNG, on the other hand, leaves you stuck with ICE forever, and leaves you with no pathway toward an auto fleet that does not produce greenhouse gases or criteria pollutants.

I stated this thread focusing on what I thought was the best way for the US to attain energy independence in the shortest possible time frame. If I were an optimist I would dream that in 5 years the US will have enough natural gas stations and 15% of vehicles will be NGV. Due to lower gasoline usage it's price will go down to a dollar a gallon. With increase production of NGVs and natural gas their prices will go down also. The natural gas equivalent to a gallon of gasoline will be $0.80.
Meanwhile, research on better batteries and electric cars will continue.

[niner]

One shouldn't look at hybrids as a sort of electrics. Hybrids are just a way to increase millage in gasoline cars.
As for real plug in electric cars with batteries optimistically good for 200 miles, how do yo recharge the battery on the road if you are going further? How many hours will it take? Refueling natural gas tanks takes on average 5 minutes.

Hybrids are on a continuum between internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles and pure EVs. An ordinary hybrid has a small battery + ICE, and a plugin hybrid has a bigger battery + ICE. A pure EV has a huge battery, and does away entirely with the ICE range-extender. Given the present cost and energy density of batteries, and the lack (at the moment) of high-power recharge sites, a plugin hybrid makes a lot of sense, with the battery sized according to your typical commute and pocketbook. Hybrids provide a smooth transition away from ICE vehicles and toward EVs. CNG, on the other hand, leaves you stuck with ICE forever, and leaves you with no pathway toward an auto fleet that does not produce greenhouse gases or criteria pollutants.

I stated this thread focusing on what I thought was the best way for the US to attain energy independence in the shortest possible time frame. If I were an optimist I would dream that in 5 years the US will have enough natural gas stations and 15% of vehicles will be NGV. Due to lower gasoline usage it's price will go down to a dollar a gallon. With increase production of NGVs and natural gas their prices will go down also. The natural gas equivalent to a gallon of gasoline will be $0.80.
Meanwhile, research on better batteries and electric cars will continue.

With great effort and cost, we could probably hit the 15% number, but I don't think that we would see gasoline at one dollar. If we did, people would be even less inclined to retrofit or buy a more expensive new car. (Prediction of future commodity prices is really hard.) However, that effort is not currently slated to happen, while hybrids, plugin hybrids, and even a few pure EVs will be hitting the showrooms soon. With gas at two dollars, they may prove hard to sell...