<BJKlein> Official Chat Begins Now
* Gordon listens to the monologue
<Mermaid> whats the topic?
<BJKlein> no topic actually....
<BJKlein> no official monologue, sorry
<nrv8> start.. NOW!
<Gordon> you're late, nrv8
<Gordon> wrong reference frame
<nrv8> youuuuu
<BJKlein> If you have a request for next week... let me know
<BJKlein> otherwise.. the topic is open for tonight
<BJKlein> I'll basically spout some ideas and thoughts about the Institute to get the ball rolling
<BJKlein> The main focus of the Institute is to provide a meeting place...
<BJKlein> If there's something you think we can do better, let me know
<BJKlein> I like the idea of writing articles for such sites as www.extropy.org
<BJKlein> An article that points to the importance of life as the only alternative.
<Mind> Hi Everyone!!!!
<BJKlein> Welcome Back Mind
<Mind> How are you?
<BJKlein> good good
<BJKlein> Topic is open tonight... if you have a request for next week, let me know
<Mind> OK
* Gordon requests that we have a topic
<BJKlein> Sorry, I just got back from seeing "Sweet Home Alabama"
<Mind> What did you think?
<Mind> any good
<BJKlein> Excellent
<Gordon> was it like the real Alabama?
<BJKlein> Yes..
<Mind> What was excellent about it
<BJKlein> I live in Birmingham, AL now, but
<BJKlein> the movies was based on a town near the coast
<Gordon> BJ: do you have a southern accent?
<BJKlein> I used to life in Fairhope, AL which is down near the coast..
<BJKlein> heh, I don't know....
<Mind> That Reese W. is good looking
<BJKlein> sometimes people say I have a accent, however, I can't tell
<Mind> People say she is kind-of intelligent too
<Gordon> do you talk like them fancy city folks on the TV from New Yerk City
<BJKlein> New Yerk? heh
<Gordon> or like your fellow Alabamians?
<Mind> You should send her an e-amil...see if she wants to join Imminst
<Gordon> (well, I don't know the accent very well, so I'm just guessing)
<BJKlein> I believe I change my accent to fit the people I'm around
<Mind> How do you live with the heat down there in Alabama?
<Mermaid> bbl
<BJKlein> good idea Mind, RW is an amazing actress, if she's half as intelligent as she acts..
<BJKlein> Mind, we have good AC
<Mind> lol
<Gordon> ... then she has an IQ of 50?
<BJKlein> did you see her in Legaly Blond?
<Gordon> I guess not
<Gordon> unless I watched the movie and didn't know it
<Mind> Really...Gordon...I have heard she is more intelligent than most actresses....which would put her IQ in the 51-54 range
<BJKlein> dope
<Gordon> Mind: BJ said "if she's half as intelligent as she acts ..." and I finished the sentence
<Mind> Iok
<Mind> thats right
<Gordon> that would be here half IQ
<BJKlein> Gordon would know about the southern heat problem
<Mind> If I had to pick a topic...I would want to discuss AI vs. human upgrading
<BJKlein> ok Mind, that shall be the next topic
<Mind> Lately...a few at imminst have really been railing against AI
<Gordon> October has the best weather of the year in FL
<Gordon> it's in the upper 70s to low 80s everyday :-)
<BJKlein> October is very nice, trees are starting to change
<BJKlein> We're going to have a Halloween Party here at the house..
<Mind> Had nice trees up here in WI...but the last couple of storms have really blew most of the color away
<BJKlein> you guys are invited
<Gordon> trees don't change down here
<Gordon> they get brown and then the leaves fall off
<Mind> I'll come to the party dressed as my clone
<BJKlein> lol
<Gordon> except for our year round trees, which are nice :-)
<BJKlein> do you go to Disney often Gordon?
<Gordon> I used to, but my pass recently expired
<Gordon> I can't afford to renew it right now
<Gordon> :-(
<Mind> How technical is that place?
<Mind> do they have any good science exhibits
<Gordon> it's not very technical
<Mind> or history of science stuff
<Gordon> SL1 and SL2 stuff at the most
<Mind> I know they have a hall of presidents
<Mind> They should develop a hall of science
<Gordon> yeah, but that's only visited when it's really hot or really cold outside
<Mind> Or maybe they should develop a virtual reality theatre
<Mind> kind of thing
<Mind> Kids are all into gaming
<Mind> nowadays
<Gordon> they did have an attraction housed in a fictional Science Center, but it was down for rennovation last time I was there
<Gordon> they have one ride based on Toy Story where you are a Space Ranger along with Buzz Lightyear and on the car are laser guns for each rider
<Gordon> you get to go through the ride and shoot the baddies with your TV remote
<Gordon> the ride keeps track of your score
<Mind> interesting
<Gordon> it's tough, too; max score is 999,999,999 and I've only made it up into the 800,000,000 range
<Mind> actually...the tech behind all of the rides...I am sure is quite interesting
<Gordon> oh, yes, but they don't just tell it to you
<Mind> :-(
<Gordon> I've found out a little from knowing people who work there and going on behind the scenes tours
<Gordon> but I'm sure that there are more secretes to be uncovered
* Ziana wonders what's being discussed
<BJKlein> Welcome Back Ziana
<Mind> Disney Rides
<Ziana> ahh
<BJKlein> Open topic tonight..
<Mind> Hi Ziana
<Ziana> hiya
<Mind> Where the heck is that "memgineer" dude from WI?
<Mind> I told him to e-mail me last week
<Mind> never did
<Mind> He logs on as ego-mesch sometimes
<Mind> or ego...somthing
<BJKlein> Mind when you say AI vs Human Upgrading...
<Ziana> memegineer, eg0mech
<BJKlein> are you talking bio vs mech?
<Mind> yes
<BJKlein> ok
<Mind> Laz, Omnido, and Chip
<Mind> are all against AI
<BJKlein> Thus, next weeks topic will be about the above said
<BJKlein> they are.. good point
<Mind> They would rather see human upgrading first...even if it takes longer
<Mind> I think it could make for an interesting discussion
<BJKlein> ok, i'll introduce the argument from both sides, and let you guys go at em
<Mind> cool
<Mind> brb
<BJKlein> I'll also send out the Newsletter the day of the get more folks in here
<BJKlein> Guest are you still here?
<BJKlein> If this is your fist time here, Welcome...
<BJKlein> and sorry the conversation is not more interesting..
<Ziana> wb
<Mind> I wonder...is it really that hard to approach people about the concept of immortality and "singularity
<Mind> It came so easy to me
<BJKlein> really?
<Mind> I can't believe others would have so much against the concepts
<BJKlein> I find that I depends on the person
<Mind> When you spammed me BJ...I read your site and was hooked immediately
<BJKlein> in general, I find that most of the people I know just don't care about the idea...
<Mind> I had already done a lot of reading...and I enjoy science
<BJKlein> people in real life that is
<Mind> so maybe that is why it came naturally
<Mind> DON'T CARE!!!!!
<BJKlein> yes, there need to be a prior base of knowledge
<Mind> ??
<BJKlein> yes, don't care enough to read a book about it..
<BJKlein> people are content to just go about life and react and enjoy
<Mind> hmmmm
<Mind> what about death?
<Mind> I know a lot of people are concerned about death
<BJKlein> only concerned about death when life is obviously threatened
<Mind> right!
<BJKlein> cancer, car crash, etc.
<Mind> or when they get a bit older
<BJKlein> not day to day... people would rather push those feelings away..
<BJKlein> so Mind, you would consider youself a Singularitarian
<Mind> I guess
<BJKlein> do you see a Singularity happening with the next few years?
<Mind> I am comfortable with tech helping us transcend our biology
<BJKlein> right
<Mind> although it will be strange
<BJKlein> of course
<Mind> I see it in about 10 years
<Mind> give or take 2
<Mind> 2010-2014
<BJKlein> and you've always been interested in science and learning..much like myself..
<Mind> roughly
<Mind> I love science
<Mind> and learning
<Mind> I spend most of my time reading
<BJKlein> you see to possiblities as endless.. yep
<Mind> endless
<Mind> Of course...I do believe in an infinite universe
<BJKlein> you know..
<BJKlein> I wonder if the objections people have to the Singularity
<BJKlein> are sometimes motivated by factors that have nothing to do with facts
<Mind> exactly
<Mind> more with emotions
<BJKlein> more likly people are just upset that they didn't think of it first,
<BJKlein> or just a reflex skeptic reaction
<BJKlein> to an unknow idea
<BJKlein> because with me...
<chronophasiac> bj, most objections to the Singularity stem from two sources. the first is disbelief at the possibilities of technology. the second is moral issues about "handing over control"
<Mind> It is not easy to imagine letting go of my biology...whether gradually with tech/replacement...or all at once with the help of some super-intelligence...
<BJKlein> it was more like my mind was an open field ready to be planted with the right idea.. and the Singularity held big time
<Mind> but I do not deny that this is where we are headed
<BJKlein> chronophasiac, good point
<Utnapishtim> hey
<BJKlein> Welcome Back Utnapishtim
<Utnapishtim> How was the chat?
<Mind> I guess a lot of people that are in disbelief of where tech is headed,,,may just not understand science very well
<BJKlein> Utnapishtim is a good example of a skeptic heh
<Utnapishtim> Hey Mind
<BJKlein> Utnapishtim, we
<Ziana> uth- chat still in progress ;-)
<Mind> howdy
<BJKlein> are talking about the Singularity
<Utnapishtim> ok... cool
<BJKlein> Utnapishtim, would you care to tell us your feelings about the first time you heard about the Singularity ?
<Ziana> mind- yep... there was a survey some months ago about how the average american's grasp of basic science (much less keeping track of new research), and they didn't do very well ;-)
<Mind> like most surveys about science :-(
<chronophasiac> mind, that's probably untrue. a good many scientists simply refuse te believe that a general-purpose assembler is possible
<Mind> really!!!!??
<chronophasiac> i've read many articles "debunking" Drexlerian nanotechnology
<chronophasiac> most written by scientifically literate laymen or professors
<Utnapishtim> chrono: So have I
<Ziana> most who think it's possible or even vaguely plausible wouldn't stand up for that in public for fear of damaging their reputation
<chronophasiac> i think rank incredulity at the possibility of ultratech is only loosely correlated with scientific background
<Utnapishtim> The foresigth website actually does a very good job countering the arguments of would-be debunkers
<Mind> I didn't think the Singularity was so untouchable in the mainstream of Science
<chronophasiac> its untouchable in the mainstream social process of science
<Utnapishtim> What I find interesting is that specualation about the universe is respectable
<chronophasiac> its important to seperate the social process (irrational) with the research (rational)
<Mind> So you are saying late night ..."in the bar"... most scientist would agree with the concept
<Utnapishtim> ie string theory black holes etc
<Mind> but in open view of the public they will not talk about it
<chronophasiac> mind, not at all. most scientists believe these things are impossible because *other* scientists believe they are impossible
<Utnapishtim> but specualtion about the nature of technological progress is not
<chronophasiac> this is a social process
<Mind> I see
<chronophasiac> scientists and researchers tend to only be rational within the very narrow domain of a project. its largely frowned upon to use the same degree of rationality and rigor in larger philosophical issues
<Utnapishtim> Lets face it all of us have to occasionally defer to the opinions of experts. There is simply not enough time to examine every wild claim
* Gordon officially afks, though I did a while ago
<Utnapishtim> Chrono: I think excessive specialisation is sometimes the cause
<Utnapishtim> Take the Cryonics debate as a perfect example
<chronophasiac> ut, its definitely a memetic immune system reaction
<Utnapishtim> Scientists nearly always take the.. well it hasn't been proven therefore we will ignore it approach
<chronophasiac> the scientific community is hardened against anything that seems "out there" because most claims that fall into that category aren't well supported
<Utnapishtim> This is a perfectly valid reasonable approach to take in some areas
<chronophasiac> i think its a good example of over-optimization
<Utnapishtim> But cryonics needs to be evaluated using game theory rather than the scientific method
<Mind> You bring up a good point about Universe theories Unta....I think that since physicists are already on the "edge"...it is easier for them to speculate about larger issues
<chronophasiac> by trying to optimize out time-wasting speculation they've also optimized out important, rigorous speculation
<Utnapishtim> Mind: Phycists are allowed to speculate about all sorts of nutty stuff
<Mind> I know ...isn't it great
<Utnapishtim> because it is nice and disteant and safely irrelevant to our everyday concerns
<Mind> Nanotech is much closer to everyone's daily lives
<Mind> the potential...the peril
<Utnapishtim> Mind: Yes but it is only respectable to specualte about mundane applications
<Mind> and not respectable to speculate about uploading
<Utnapishtim> for instance
<Utnapishtim> Look at Scientific American and the way they discuss nanotech
<Mind> how is that?
<Utnapishtim> They actually avoid discussing the repercussions of it becasue there is simply no way to do it without sounding "cranky"
<Mind> cranky...like wierd
<Utnapishtim> yeah
<Mind> or cranky...like mad
<Utnapishtim> flaky
<Mind> ok
<Utnapishtim> not respectable and solid
<Ziana> heck, even *star trek* avoids even application of it ;-)
<AFKmkayDave> I know!
<Mind> And Star Trek is somewhere one would expect to find it
<AFKmkayDave> Those retards mentioned it once, and actually said it could eat through a hull once, but it'd take 2 weeks to develop the tech
<Ziana> and no-one ever bothered to spend the two weeks to do that? ;-)
<Utnapishtim> In fairness to Star Trek they have a certain narrative setup
<Mind> a history
<Mind> a storyline
<Utnapishtim> yeah its sort of like a naval vessel is space
<Utnapishtim> the technology you see is there to make the story cool
<Utnapishtim> It's not serious future speculation
<chronophasiac> there's only so far you can go while still making humans the main characters
<chronophasiac> and there's only so far you can go *period*
<Ziana> utna- ~nod~
<DavetheDuke> I smirked when I found out 10 year old had to take calculas then
<Mind> I guess it would be hard to incorporate accelerating intelligence into Star Trek
<Mind> There would be 1 show...and then what next...no one knows
<chronophasiac> mind, its hard to incorporate accelerating intelligence into *anything*
<chronophasiac> in fact, its impossible
<chronophasiac> Vinge's law
<DavetheDuke> yah
<Mind> Like I said ...1 show
<Utnapishtim> You have to bear in mind that they are also forced to stay within the parameters of a 1960s vision of the future
<chronophasiac> you can stretch the moments before a Singularity as long as you'd like
<Mind> right...the storyline
<Mind> the history
<Utnapishtim> Star Trek is very dated SF even the new stuff
<Ziana> yep
<chronophasiac> ut, i don't see any evolution on television or screen
<DavetheDuke> I've heard that a Fire into the Deep was good advanced SF eh?
<Mind> Was that a movie?
<Mind> a show?
<DavetheDuke> novel
<DavetheDuke> by Vinge
<Mind> Fire into the deep?
<Mind> that is the title
<DavetheDuke> Yeah, I think that's the tit
<Ziana> fire upon the deep
<Utnapishtim> chronoplastic: what do you mean. Yuo feel that the same tired ideas are being recycled?
<DavetheDuke> title *
<chronophasiac> ut, the same ideas are *definitely* being recycled, particularly on television and film
<Utnapishtim> Well that is to a large extent what people want
<chronophasiac> science fiction just become curtain-dressing, a set to tell a story that could be told in the old west, victorian ages, whatever
<Utnapishtim> of course
<Ziana> chrono- good example of that is Firefly
<Mind> I noticed that with the Movie "Simone"
<Mind> I thought a lot deeper into the movie than the writers intended
<chronophasiac> EE "doc" smith did it first, and he did pretty much all you can do with the genre
<Ziana> they're actually *trying* to focus more on the 'old west' than 'science fiction'
<chronophasiac> space opera is doen with, move on people
<chronophasiac> *done
<Mind> I know
<Utnapishtim> chronophasiac: Well some people enjoy that stuff so I guess its cool. It's all entertainment after all
<chronophasiac> the problem is that its much easier to make space opera than real SF. also your audience doesn't have to think as much
<Mind> I saw "minority report" and that wasn't very futuristic either
<Ziana> mind- yep
<DavetheDuke> MR was pathetic!
<Mind> Did anyone see "Simone"
<DavetheDuke> and Spielberg said he consulted numerous futurists - maybe it was toned down intentionally to be more mass appealing
<DavetheDuke> I saw some previews
<DavetheDuke> that's all though, Mind
<Mind> It was a cheap movie....but I liked the concept
<DavetheDuke> Cheap movie eh? As in Blair-Witch cheap?
<Mind> Not much of a supporting cast...cheap sets
<Mind> The concept was near term SF
<Mind> even though virtual actors have been the subject of may past novels
<Mind> many past novels
<Utnapishtim> Well I thought Minority Report was actually ok. It was vastly superior to the HORRIBLE A.I
<Mind> I did not see AI
<Mind> why was it horrible?
<Utnapishtim> Mind: by the way I have posted my comments on the Eagles in the PM window
<Mind> OK
<Utnapishtim> I felt it had no decent pacing, dragged on forever
<Utnapishtim> The "world" of the film was poorly imagined
<Mind> How far in the future was it set?
<Utnapishtim> It had the worst of Kubrick; .......Long meandering pretentiousness mixed with the worst of Spielberg... Sacherine sweet cutesyness
<Mind> lol...that is what a lot of critics said
<Utnapishtim> Mind: I don't remember 50 years or so I think
<Ziana> hiya eliezer
<Mind> darn... I have to go back to work
<Mind> Nice chat all
<DavetheDuke> bye Mind
<Ziana> ta-ta
<Mind> chow
<Utnapishtim> Ok. what are we talking about now?
<DavetheDuke> Um.
<DavetheDuke> Gordon and Mike Deering are arguing on whether to research nanotech or not, I think
<DavetheDuke> What I'm finding lacking in their argument is that nanotech isn't really that advanced. We definitely don't have autonomous bots yet - doesn't anyone know how far along in nanotech we are generally?
<Utnapishtim> You know I think the point is that we HAVE to keep going
<Utnapishtim> The current setup is NOT stable
<chronophasiac> ut, humans with nanotechnology is not stable either
<chronophasiac> its meta-unstable
<DavetheDuke> I know... that's why I want AI way before any nanotech
<Utnapishtim> The Nuclear club is grwoing. More and more countries have the capacity the launch a nuclear strike
<chronophasiac> human-level intelligence is hugely out of synch with existential risks of nanotech class
<Utnapishtim> AGREED
<DavetheDuke> Nanotech may turn out completely unstable, considering quantum effects bla bla bla
<DavetheDuke> I hope humans are just too stupid for it
<chronophasiac> dave, there's no reason to think that except blind hope
<DavetheDuke> I'm not thinking that way - I'm being proactive against it (because it could easily happen, too) by supporting FAI and increasing computational power
<Guest> 1Its been interesting. cu
