8 replies to this topic

[Mixter]

For the record, here's the reason why most new studies whose methods take less than ~8 of these factors
into account in preventing or treating heart disease or atherosclerosis are inferior and not
worth looking at, unless we're talking about the new miracle drug of the century, perhaps.

Picture and text are quoted from http://www.lef.org/m..._doctors_02.htm

10 Daggers of Arterial Disease

The 10 Daggers:
Elevated C-reactive Protein,
Excess LDL,
Excess Insulin,
Low HDL,
High Glucose,
Excess Triglycerides,
Low Free Testosterone,
Excess Fibrinogen,
Excess Homocysteine,
Hypertension.

Because unhealthy lifestyle choices and normal aging can damage arteries, the arterial system serves as an Achilles heel of health for millions of adults in modern Western societies.

In rare cases, arterial disease may have just one cause. An example is the severe atherosclerosis observed in children who suffer from a genetic defect that causes severe hyperhomocysteinemia. In these children, blood homocysteine levels can exceed 100 µmol/L, and they can die in early life from advanced systemic atherosclerosis.

For typical heart attack victims, however, multiple factors cause arterial disease. To elucidate this point, the image above depicts daggers aimed at a healthy heart. Any one of these daggers would kill if thrust deep into the heart. In the real world, however, aging humans suffer small pricks from the point of many of these daggers over a lifetime. Although none of the pricks by itself is enough to cause a heart attack, the cumulative effect of these dagger pricks (risk factors) is arterial occlusion and, far too often, angina or acute heart attack.

For very complete references, see end of the article.

[david ellis]

My mistake, sorry.

Edited by david ellis, 21 November 2008 - 07:03 PM.

[edward]

True there are multiple factors at play... however I would argue that making one or two changes could eliminate all factors. CR by itself would do it. A low carb relatively caloric balanced diet would do it also. Throw in regular exercise to either of these and bye bye heart disease, type 2 diabetes...the list goes on. Add in some supplements and the picture gets even rosier, but diet and exercise is something that costs nothing and everyone can do.

[DukeNukem]

For the record, here's the reason why most new studies whose methods take less than ~8 of these factors
into account in preventing or treating heart disease or atherosclerosis are inferior and not
worth looking at, unless we're talking about the new miracle drug of the century, perhaps.

Picture and text are quoted from http://www.lef.org/m..._doctors_02.htm

10 Daggers of Arterial Disease

The 10 Daggers:
Elevated C-reactive Protein,
Excess LDL,
Excess Insulin,
Low HDL,
High Glucose,
Excess Triglycerides,
Low Free Testosterone,
Excess Fibrinogen,
Excess Homocysteine,
Hypertension.

Because unhealthy lifestyle choices and normal aging can damage arteries, the arterial system serves as an Achilles heel of health for millions of adults in modern Western societies.

In rare cases, arterial disease may have just one cause. An example is the severe atherosclerosis observed in children who suffer from a genetic defect that causes severe hyperhomocysteinemia. In these children, blood homocysteine levels can exceed 100 µmol/L, and they can die in early life from advanced systemic atherosclerosis.

For typical heart attack victims, however, multiple factors cause arterial disease. To elucidate this point, the image above depicts daggers aimed at a healthy heart. Any one of these daggers would kill if thrust deep into the heart. In the real world, however, aging humans suffer small pricks from the point of many of these daggers over a lifetime. Although none of the pricks by itself is enough to cause a heart attack, the cumulative effect of these dagger pricks (risk factors) is arterial occlusion and, far too often, angina or acute heart attack.

For very complete references, see end of the article.

There's a newer version with 14 daggers:
http://www.lef.org/m...007_awsi_01.htm

Edited by DukeNukem, 22 November 2008 - 01:07 AM.

[balance]

I was just about to say what Duke has said, but he beat me to it. Yet the picture of the 14 daggers cannot be enlarged. Here is a bigger version so we can actually read about those extra 4 daggers:

http://www.lef.org/m...Hormones_01.htm

[david ellis]

Why no single thing can prevent heart disease...

There are 14 daggers, but that doesn't mean there are 14 causes. Heart disease could be easily caused by an infection, like ulcers were. Nobody has a story on what exact physiological steps will almost always result in heart disease. When we know those steps, then we will have the cause of the disease, until then we are just guessing, using statistics. Then one single thing could prevent heart disease.

The daggers have not been impressive as causes. A mumps virus causes mumps. Almost 100% of the people with mumps have swollen faces. That is not impressive, that is just what you know when you understand a disease. The two daggers we know the most about, CRP and cholesterol, are very unimpressive. They yield a 96% false positive error rate. All we have are faint statistical correlations. All tiny nicks from daggers, but no cause established yet.

You can see, I am unimpressed with the MBA calculations of lives, and costs saved(never trust an MBA, all she knows is numbers). Well of the 4 people who are correctly identified, statins only save one. Inefficiency on both ends of the scale, inefficiency in identifying and then when it really counts, inefficiency in saving those identified.

(Thanks piet3r for the link to the 14 dagger chart)

Edited by david ellis, 22 November 2008 - 03:44 AM.

[Mixter]

There are 14 daggers, but that doesn't mean there are 14 causes. [...]

Yes and no. Of course heart disease can always be caused by something worse/unexpected but
these 14 things increasingly accumulate naturally with age or at least with modern lifestyle, so
eventually some of them will work together to cause heart disease if nothing else does.

Of course it may be a single thing manages several of these factors at once, and then it
is worth looking at... like omega3, pomegranate, etc.which all manage a lot of these factors.

The two daggers we know the most about, CRP and cholesterol, are very unimpressive. They yield a 96% false positive error rate.

That's interesting, but I would guess that the 14 daggers would yield more like a 10-20% false positive
rate, given that most cases have very common etiology (like atherosclerosis) in heart disease.
Any statisticians? That study really needs to be done.

Btw, on the LEF site you can find studies about dozens and dozens of factors that are predictive
of diseases or overall mortality which are not taken into account today. E.g. try googling
site:lef.org predicts, very interesting results, some even for the well informed people here.

[DukeNukem]

There are 14 daggers, but that doesn't mean there are 14 causes. [...]

Yes and no. Of course heart disease can always be caused by something worse/unexpected but
these 14 things increasingly accumulate naturally with age or at least with modern lifestyle, so
eventually some of them will work together to cause heart disease if nothing else does.

Of course it may be a single thing manages several of these factors at once, and then it
is worth looking at... like omega3, pomegranate, etc.which all manage a lot of these factors.

The two daggers we know the most about, CRP and cholesterol, are very unimpressive. They yield a 96% false positive error rate.

That's interesting, but I would guess that the 14 daggers would yield more like a 10-20% false positive
rate, given that most cases have very common etiology (like atherosclerosis) in heart disease.
Any statisticians? That study really needs to be done.

Btw, on the LEF site you can find studies about dozens and dozens of factors that are predictive
of diseases or overall mortality which are not taken into account today. E.g. try googling
site:lef.org predicts, very interesting results, some even for the well informed people here.

Of these 14 daggers, high triglycerides is most correlated with heart disease, based on what I've read.

High Lp(a) would be #2, but that's not one of the daggers.

[Nova]

The reason for all mitochondrion a brain.
The weak brain badly operates heart and breaks hormonal balance creating cholesterol in arteries .

Edited by Nova, 23 November 2008 - 05:28 PM.