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How to fix the GABA system?


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#1 focus83

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 02:53 PM


Hi guys,

I am 26, male, and I have tried an awful lot of nootropics over the past few years with mixed results. None of them has been the "revelation" for me even though a few like Ritalin, Selegiline and Tianeptine had some significant short-term effects.
My main concern is that I am a pretty nervous, ADS kind of guy. I feel like my neurons are in continuous fire mode. I have a hard time focusing on things and my memory has degraded to a point where I begin worrying about my career. Right now I am a post-graduate looking for his first job. I managed to get a very good degree from university, but this took my last bit of mental energy leaving me tired and exhausted. For 3 years I've been taking SSRIs (first paroxetine, now sertraline), because I suffer from social anxieties, depressive episodes and essential tremor. Now I am slowly tapering the sertraline (from 200mg to 100mg right now), because I feel the serotonine route is a dead-end street for me as I do not feel any benefits anymore. In fact, the only reason I've been taking SSRIs so long is because I experienced really nasty discontinuation symptoms when I tried to stop the paroxetine.
Anyway, to make a long story short....I am pretty sure that my GABA system is completely messed up. I feel stressed and irritated all the time and I can't seem to properly handle everyday routines like getting up in the morning, being punctual or doing tedious bureaucratic stuff.
I believe it is the GABA, because benzos, in particular alprazolam (Xanax) makes me feel great in terms of my ability to focus and the way I can process new information. Typically, benzos are associated with cognitive impairment, but not so for me. I can't say that my memory works better when I take Xanax, but it gives me the patience to read through subjects from start to end without getting distracted and it also helps to let information pass my "cognitive barrier" more easily.

I guess I could write several dozen pages about me, but I want to keep it as brief as possible for your convenience.

I would like to ask you which other ways you know to increase GABA levels apart from benzos?

Is there anybody who experienced similar nootropic effects from increased GABA activity, for instance from taking Phenibut or benzos?

Btw, here is a (hopefully) complete list of nootropic substances I tried over the years:

Piracetam (ordered again in hope it is working better this time)
Aniracetam (only worked well with fatty food as it is fat soluable, but then again only for an hour or so)
Hydergine (made me feel sick)
Centrophenoxine (can't remember anymore, must have been underwhelmed I guess)
Bromocriptine (made me feel sick)
Selegiline (relieved tension in my head, I could process information more easily, but the effect wore of after 2 weeks or so)
Tianeptine (similar to selegiline, felt really smooth)
Modafinil (keeps me awake, but makes me feel edgy and unfocused)
Ritalin (when I first took it, it was THE solution to all my problems. No anxiety, more self-confidence, positive thinking etc. Ran out of pills, reordered and the effect was suddenly like modafinil. No idea why!)
Ashwaghanda (zero effect)
Bacopa (zero effect, but didn't take it long enough)
Gingko (Still using it, great for better blood flow to extremities, not so much for cognition)
Trivastal (Piribedil) (horrid stuff, made me feel very sick with no positive effects whatsoever)
Phenibut (great for sleep, but tolerance developed very quickly)
Vinpocetine (gave me head aches)
Desmopressin (Still using it, helps me focus, but water retention is a problem as I drink A LOT)

...and a few others I have certainly forgotten to add.

I'm excited to hear your thoughts on this :-)

focus ;)



#2 Zoroaster

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 09:21 PM

This is just a thought. I used to be a really nervous guy. I had some pretty significant social and performance anxiety. I worried about little things enough that it was becoming kind of debilitating. I tried anti-anxiety pills and they barely took the edge off. But you know what made a huge difference? I went on beta-blockers for a little heart arrhythmia. I tell you that cured my anxiety like nothing else. All of a sudden I wasn't nervous when meeting new people, I could speak publicly or in class without a problem, and I didn't lie in bed worrying about conversations I had had or any of that crap. And I never realized it but I had adrenaline rushes going on all day, even when I'd like pick up the phone or open my email, I'd have a little adrenaline rush and a feeling of dread about what kind of conflict I might face next. And I didn't realize how much that affected me until it was gone. Now I can focus much better and I worry much less. I don't know if it will help you because your situation is a little different. But my day to day stress and irritation levels have gone way down. And it doesn't have the nasty side-effects or dependence that you can get with SSRI's.

Also, I take an occasional dose of Phenibut, Theanine, and GABA on days when I just cant seem to unwind, and it works amazingly well. Mostly because of the Phenibut. Plus I take GABA, Theanine, and Melatonin pretty much every night. Anyway, doing all that has changed my life. But the beta-blockers made by far the biggest difference.

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#3 focus83

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 12:37 PM

This is just a thought. I used to be a really nervous guy. I had some pretty significant social and performance anxiety. I worried about little things enough that it was becoming kind of debilitating. I tried anti-anxiety pills and they barely took the edge off. But you know what made a huge difference? I went on beta-blockers for a little heart arrhythmia. I tell you that cured my anxiety like nothing else. All of a sudden I wasn't nervous when meeting new people, I could speak publicly or in class without a problem, and I didn't lie in bed worrying about conversations I had had or any of that crap. And I never realized it but I had adrenaline rushes going on all day, even when I'd like pick up the phone or open my email, I'd have a little adrenaline rush and a feeling of dread about what kind of conflict I might face next. And I didn't realize how much that affected me until it was gone. Now I can focus much better and I worry much less. I don't know if it will help you because your situation is a little different. But my day to day stress and irritation levels have gone way down. And it doesn't have the nasty side-effects or dependence that you can get with SSRI's.

Also, I take an occasional dose of Phenibut, Theanine, and GABA on days when I just cant seem to unwind, and it works amazingly well. Mostly because of the Phenibut. Plus I take GABA, Theanine, and Melatonin pretty much every night. Anyway, doing all that has changed my life. But the beta-blockers made by far the biggest difference.


I can partly attest what you write. I used to take Propranolol 3 times daily for years to treat my essential tremor. I also makes the biggest difference for my social anxieties since it supresses anxiety symptoms like rapid heart bear, trembling etc in stress situations. Propranolol does not cure my anxiety by all means, but it makes the stress of public performance MUCH more bearable and also makes me worry much less before e.g. public performances.
HOWEVER, I have the strong assumption that Propranolol is the major reason I began suffering from depression in the first place. I was never the depressed kind of guy, but after taking Propranolol for several years I switched to using it on occasion and I noticed that I became a mentally much more fragile person (suicidal thoughts etc.). I attribute this to Propranolol, because I never knew it can cause depression which makes it unlikely to be a placebo effect. It must have messed up something really bad in my body.
Nonetheless, I always found my anxiety symptoms much more debilitating than depressive episodes, so I was happy to trade one for the other.
Something even more remarkable about Propranolol is that it does not only dramatically relieve my anxiety symptoms, but also helps at keeping an "emotional distance" to things causing me anxiety. It's hard to explain, but think of it as some kind of shield which prevents negative impressions from leaving a traumatic footprint in your mind. I recall reading a study with similar findings, but I have no idea where I found it.

Interesting to read that you have similar benefits from taking Propranolol as I do!

focus

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#4 Imagination

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 02:01 PM

I used to think it was the serotonin route too but 5-htp or anything serotonin related pretty much as no effect on me or just makes me tired.

Have you tried the dopamine route? I can't see anything on your list that would be for Dopamine.

If not pick up tyrosine, there are other's about but this is the only one I've tried that I can easily pick up for cheap and it works.

Focus so much better when I take this, If I only took one nootropic tyrosine would be it.

Theanine is supposed to boost gaba, dopamine and serotonin. Mainly GABA, i've not tried this yet but got some on the way too try just out of curiousity after hearing good things. I'll report the results.

I heard regular stretching is supposed to boost gaba levels too.

#5 spider

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 02:31 PM

I believe it is the GABA, because benzos, in particular alprazolam (Xanax) makes me feel great in terms of my ability to focus and the way I can process new information. Typically, benzos are associated with cognitive impairment, but not so for me. I can't say that my memory works better when I take Xanax, but it gives me the patience to read through subjects from start to end without getting distracted and it also helps to let information pass my "cognitive barrier" more easily.


AD's vs. benzodiapines for GAD

I have had the same experience. A low dose of Valium (2.5 mg) or Xanax (0.5mg) allows me to think faster. Also, my short term memory is beter on a benzodiapine and my long term memory seems to stay the same. Antidepressants (sertraline, duloxetine, escitalopram), on the other hand, make my thinking proces very slow and have a signaficant negative effect on my memory.

The last AD I'm going to try will be Remeron (mirtazapine). If this AD doesn't take care of my chronic anxiety/stress without affecting my intellectual faculties negatively, I'm going to try a chronic low dosage of benzodiazepine.

#6 focus83

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 03:02 PM

I used to think it was the serotonin route too but 5-htp or anything serotonin related pretty much as no effect on me or just makes me tired.

Have you tried the dopamine route? I can't see anything on your list that would be for Dopamine.

If not pick up tyrosine, there are other's about but this is the only one I've tried that I can easily pick up for cheap and it works.

Focus so much better when I take this, If I only took one nootropic tyrosine would be it.

Theanine is supposed to boost gaba, dopamine and serotonin. Mainly GABA, i've not tried this yet but got some on the way too try just out of curiousity after hearing good things. I'll report the results.

I heard regular stretching is supposed to boost gaba levels too.


Selegiline, Ritalin and Piribedil target dopamine. The former two were great in the short-term, but Piribedil was a total flop.

I will see what Theanine does for me. Isn't it contained in green tea? I recall that when I was in Japan 2 years ago I used to drink plenty of green tea and it made me rather jittery than relaxed.

I didn't try tyrosine so far. If it's inexpensive and easy to get I will give it a try. Thanks for your suggestions ;)

focus

#7 focus83

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 04:42 PM

I believe it is the GABA, because benzos, in particular alprazolam (Xanax) makes me feel great in terms of my ability to focus and the way I can process new information. Typically, benzos are associated with cognitive impairment, but not so for me. I can't say that my memory works better when I take Xanax, but it gives me the patience to read through subjects from start to end without getting distracted and it also helps to let information pass my "cognitive barrier" more easily.


AD's vs. benzodiapines for GAD

I have had the same experience. A low dose of Valium (2.5 mg) or Xanax (0.5mg) allows me to think faster. Also, my short term memory is beter on a benzodiapine and my long term memory seems to stay the same. Antidepressants (sertraline, duloxetine, escitalopram), on the other hand, make my thinking proces very slow and have a signaficant negative effect on my memory.

The last AD I'm going to try will be Remeron (mirtazapine). If this AD doesn't take care of my chronic anxiety/stress without affecting my intellectual faculties negatively, I'm going to try a chronic low dosage of benzodiazepine.



Among the antidepressants paroxetine was by far the worst in terms of cognitive impairment. I guess this was due to the anticholineric action of paroxetine. What bother me most is that I have trouble finding the right words even after switching to sertraline.

What do you consider a low doseage of a benzo like diazepam? Is there any literature which suggests that a low dosage is safe even in the long run?

Did your physician propose to try mirtazapine for anxiety?

#8 desperate788

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 09:55 PM

I heard regular stretching is supposed to boost gaba levels too.


like this one?

http://www.guidetops...ogy.com/pmr.htm

#9 Mouser

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 12:47 AM

Four questions:

1. Do you get the same/similar positive mood and cognition effects from sleeping medications like Ambien or Lunesta as you do from benzodiazepines?

2. Have you ever taken supplemental choline or any supplement that boosts choline, i.e. cdp-choline, alpha gpc? (you mention Centrophenoxine, but I'm wondering about anything else)

3. Do you notice any issues with breathing problems (asthma like symptoms) when taking beta-blockers?

4. Do you have any sleep trouble? Daytime sleepiness, restless sleep, apnea/snoring, headaches in the morning, otherwise non-restorative sleep?

Edited by Mouser, 24 November 2008 - 12:49 AM.


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#10 Zoroaster

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 08:16 AM

I can partly attest what you write. I used to take Propranolol 3 times daily for years to treat my essential tremor. I also makes the biggest difference for my social anxieties since it supresses anxiety symptoms like rapid heart bear, trembling etc in stress situations. Propranolol does not cure my anxiety by all means, but it makes the stress of public performance MUCH more bearable and also makes me worry much less before e.g. public performances.
HOWEVER, I have the strong assumption that Propranolol is the major reason I began suffering from depression in the first place. I was never the depressed kind of guy, but after taking Propranolol for several years I switched to using it on occasion and I noticed that I became a mentally much more fragile person (suicidal thoughts etc.). I attribute this to Propranolol, because I never knew it can cause depression which makes it unlikely to be a placebo effect. It must have messed up something really bad in my body.
Nonetheless, I always found my anxiety symptoms much more debilitating than depressive episodes, so I was happy to trade one for the other.
Something even more remarkable about Propranolol is that it does not only dramatically relieve my anxiety symptoms, but also helps at keeping an "emotional distance" to things causing me anxiety. It's hard to explain, but think of it as some kind of shield which prevents negative impressions from leaving a traumatic footprint in your mind. I recall reading a study with similar findings, but I have no idea where I found it.

Interesting to read that you have similar benefits from taking Propranolol as I do!

focus


Its unusual that you had depression upon cessation of propanolol as depression is normally a side affect of propanolol that occurs while you're on the medication and then gets better when you get off it. From what I understand anyway. Either way, I don't know if you're still taking beta-blockers but there are several different kinds that have different selectivities for beta-receptors and differing abilities to cross the blood-brain barrier. I've actually never taken propanolol. I took a controlled release metoprolol for a while, but finding that dulled my mental abilities too much I switched to atenolol. Which has been better overall. Anyway, if propanolol was giving you depressive episodes, there's a good chance that there is another beta-blocker out there that would agree with you more.

#11 focus83

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 12:01 PM

Four questions:

1. Do you get the same/similar positive mood and cognition effects from sleeping medications like Ambien or Lunesta as you do from benzodiazepines?


Both help to relax a bit, but they are much, much weaker than benzos. Almost zero effect on mood and cognition.

2. Have you ever taken supplemental choline or any supplement that boosts choline, i.e. cdp-choline, alpha gpc? (you mention Centrophenoxine, but I'm wondering about anything else)


I never supplemented with cdp or gpc choline, but I was thinking about combining it with Piracetam which should arrive in a few days.
I used to take Huperzine-A (I knew the list was incomplete!) and even very high dosages like 300-400 mcg did nothing for me. No side effects at all either.

3. Do you notice any issues with breathing problems (asthma like symptoms) when taking beta-blockers?


I do have many allergies, but I only react to cat hair with breathing problems. So far I didn't monitor my breathing when I was taking propranolol, but if it made breathing significantly worse I would have noticed.

4. Do you have any sleep trouble? Daytime sleepiness, restless sleep, apnea/snoring, headaches in the morning, otherwise non-restorative sleep?


My sleep rhythm tends to be very problematic. Often times I won't be tired until 2 or 3 am. I have very vivid dreams and I sweat a lot at night. So my sleep is not very restorative and I have troubles getting up in the morning. Often times I won't get up until 11am or later. I'm aware that this is a huge problem, but as long as I am not "forced" to get up early I find it hard to normalize my sleep rhythm.
Btw, I don't have headaches in the morning. I can't tell whether I snore at night or if there are any dropouts in my breathing since I do not have a girl friend at the moment. During the times I had girl friends I can't recall they complained about snoring execpt when I was drunk.

#12 focus83

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 12:17 PM

I can partly attest what you write. I used to take Propranolol 3 times daily for years to treat my essential tremor. I also makes the biggest difference for my social anxieties since it supresses anxiety symptoms like rapid heart bear, trembling etc in stress situations. Propranolol does not cure my anxiety by all means, but it makes the stress of public performance MUCH more bearable and also makes me worry much less before e.g. public performances.
HOWEVER, I have the strong assumption that Propranolol is the major reason I began suffering from depression in the first place. I was never the depressed kind of guy, but after taking Propranolol for several years I switched to using it on occasion and I noticed that I became a mentally much more fragile person (suicidal thoughts etc.). I attribute this to Propranolol, because I never knew it can cause depression which makes it unlikely to be a placebo effect. It must have messed up something really bad in my body.
Nonetheless, I always found my anxiety symptoms much more debilitating than depressive episodes, so I was happy to trade one for the other.
Something even more remarkable about Propranolol is that it does not only dramatically relieve my anxiety symptoms, but also helps at keeping an "emotional distance" to things causing me anxiety. It's hard to explain, but think of it as some kind of shield which prevents negative impressions from leaving a traumatic footprint in your mind. I recall reading a study with similar findings, but I have no idea where I found it.

Interesting to read that you have similar benefits from taking Propranolol as I do!

focus


Its unusual that you had depression upon cessation of propanolol as depression is normally a side affect of propanolol that occurs while you're on the medication and then gets better when you get off it. From what I understand anyway. Either way, I don't know if you're still taking beta-blockers but there are several different kinds that have different selectivities for beta-receptors and differing abilities to cross the blood-brain barrier. I've actually never taken propanolol. I took a controlled release metoprolol for a while, but finding that dulled my mental abilities too much I switched to atenolol. Which has been better overall. Anyway, if propanolol was giving you depressive episodes, there's a good chance that there is another beta-blocker out there that would agree with you more.


Sorry, what I wrote was a bit confusing. Propranolol also affected my mood when I was taking it regularly, but this was a side effect which occured at a very late point of the treatment. It was one of the reasons I switched to using it on occasion. However, the discontinuation didn't make it any better. Whenever I took it again I noticed how much it worsened my mood, but only when I was in a fragile mood beforehand.
Probably you are right. I should try a different beta-blocker, but as far as I know they don't have an indication for essential tremor...? Anyway, if they relieve my anxiety symptoms they will also suppress my tremor. I will talk to my physician...

#13 Mouser

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 03:10 PM

Four questions:

1. Do you get the same/similar positive mood and cognition effects from sleeping medications like Ambien or Lunesta as you do from benzodiazepines?

2. Have you ever taken supplemental choline or any supplement that boosts choline, i.e. cdp-choline, alpha gpc? (you mention Centrophenoxine, but I'm wondering about anything else)

3. Do you notice any issues with breathing problems (asthma like symptoms) when taking beta-blockers?

4. Do you have any sleep trouble? Daytime sleepiness, restless sleep, apnea/snoring, headaches in the morning, otherwise non-restorative sleep?


I asked those because what you've explained seems similar to some of my experiences. I wouldn't go as far to say that benzodiazepines truly make thinking better, but a lot of what you said rings true, to a high degree with ambien (the positive effects). Same experience with SSRIs. Around the same age. A difference is with Ritalin, gave me bad mood swings.

In my case the causes have been whittled down to terrible sleep consolidation. Makes sense when I think about it. But until I got a sleep test it wasn't. Started out complaining of anxiety, depression, excessive daytime sleepiness, and intermittent insomnia. No success on treatment for biploar II, then DHEA and B12 deficiency... probably because there wasn't really any issue with those. Thankfully I didn't let it progress to the more serious drugs that were recommended. I can't really blame the physicians since its probably pretty rare for someone my age and overall health to have a sleep problem.

That's not to say sleep is the root cause of your problems. I'm no doctor. But I wanted throw that out there since there seems to be so many similarities. In the past months I've tried various combinations of sleep medications and supplements. The best luck I've had was a period of 5 days earlier this month - among the other supplements I take, the things that might have made the difference: 5th or 6th week of tianeptine (3 times per day), 250mg magnesium, 3mg lunesta, 2-4 grams piracetam (during the day). During that time any issues with anxiety, mood, focus, and most daytime sleepiness were gone, gained some weight too (this is a good thing). If I can pin it down the difference was I was able to relax during the day and relax at night, giving better sleep, because I could let go of anxious feelings more easily, maybe similar to how you say you felt on the beta blocker. I felt like a superhuman (not manic), but really I think I was just getting a taste of what most people feel every day. Close to the revelation you mentioned. Disappointingly back to "normal" now. Ran out of tianeptine so I tapered off... gives me a shot to figure out if it was the magic bullet. Obviously none of this should be tried without a physicians approval.

Careful with the choline. Much like boosting serotonin, with me it seems the opposite of most people is true - it doesn't do good things. Thanks for the mention of propanol. I asked about the asthma because doc once prescribed it but yanked it back when I mentioned I occasionally use an inhaler in cold weather or when sick.

#14 focus83

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 06:54 PM

In my case the causes have been whittled down to terrible sleep consolidation. Makes sense when I think about it. But until I got a sleep test it wasn't. Started out complaining of anxiety, depression, excessive daytime sleepiness, and intermittent insomnia. No success on treatment for biploar II, then DHEA and B12 deficiency... probably because there wasn't really any issue with those. Thankfully I didn't let it progress to the more serious drugs that were recommended. I can't really blame the physicians since its probably pretty rare for someone my age and overall health to have a sleep problem.
That's not to say sleep is the root cause of your problems. I'm no doctor. But I wanted throw that out there since there seems to be so many similarities. In the past months I've tried various combinations of sleep medications and supplements. The best luck I've had was a period of 5 days earlier this month - among the other supplements I take, the things that might have made the difference: 5th or 6th week of tianeptine (3 times per day), 250mg magnesium, 3mg lunesta, 2-4 grams piracetam (during the day). During that time any issues with anxiety, mood, focus, and most daytime sleepiness were gone, gained some weight too (this is a good thing). If I can pin it down the difference was I was able to relax during the day and relax at night, giving better sleep, because I could let go of anxious feelings more easily, maybe similar to how you say you felt on the beta blocker. I felt like a superhuman (not manic), but really I think I was just getting a taste of what most people feel every day. Close to the revelation you mentioned. Disappointingly back to "normal" now. Ran out of tianeptine so I tapered off... gives me a shot to figure out if it was the magic bullet. Obviously none of this should be tried without a physicians approval.


My bad sleep rhythm is definetly not changing my depression and anxieties for the better. I do notice improved cognition and mood when I slept well, but then again, who doesnt...Maybe I should do a sleep test as well. If sleep is the core of my problems I at least have a clear goal. I will also try tianeptine some time again.
I remember times, about 6 years ago back in school, when my social anxieties where at their apex causing me some of the worst moments in my life. Still, I could sleep like a rock without worrying what would happen the next day. I had no depressions either, no matter how much life sucked in these times. In retrospect, I can't explain this. I must have been ingeniuous in repressing negative thoughts.
Btw, those were the times before I began taking propranolol.

Careful with the choline. Much like boosting serotonin, with me it seems the opposite of most people is true - it doesn't do good things. Thanks for the mention of propanol. I asked about the asthma because doc once prescribed it but yanked it back when I mentioned I occasionally use an inhaler in cold weather or when sick.


Beta blockers seem to be notorious when taken by patients with asthmatic problems. Maybe I'm just lucky. You should definetly be careful.
In 4 weeks I will begin the first round of hyposensitization and their is no way I can take propranolol during this time. My doc said this could easily lead to a fatal asthmatic reaction and I don't want to tempt fate.

Edited by focus83, 24 November 2008 - 06:56 PM.


#15 AgeVivo

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 07:23 PM

did you consult a doctor? that might not be what you think?

#16 Mouser

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 08:02 PM

did you consult a doctor? that might not be what you think?


What might not be what who thinks?

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#17 focus83

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 02:21 PM

did you consult a doctor? that might not be what you think?


I am under supervision by a physician. Or what exactely do you mean?




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